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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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acidshill said:
I don't see the point in sharing lithosealing with her when she's going to be out of office in a few weeks. How do you propose to convince her to give Noburi another shot? She's made her position pretty clear. Sell what to Orochimaru?
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Hazou should make the case that (omitting SSA) besides Kagome-sensei's teaching, Jiraiya's and Orochimaru's sealing notes have helped tremendously in getting us competent enough to innovate in dimensionalism and to rediscover 3D seals. But that's just their indirect investment into the Goketsu. With more direct involvement from her, Leaf and Fire country would benefit benefit from any investment into Noburi's medical education beyond handing out dampener seals.

We should also consider that Tsunade has had access to a sealmaster and biosealing specialist all her life. Jiraiya is gone for now and Orochimaru has been shown to be stingy when sharing his findings. If she learns about 3D seals and their potential, it means it's a show of trust from us and with her help, we can become her new invaluable resource for any medical seals she needs or may have dismissed as purely theoretical. It also doesn't hurt open up access to 3D seals to a more benevolent Essie instead of just Oro.

Aside from that, Orochimaru is about to discover his own avenue to 3D sealing, but since we've already obtained it, we can leverage PS to get either bio-seal augments, apprenticeship, or notes if hivemind wants. May as well get something out of it.
 
[X] ACTION PLAN: BEAUTIFUL GREEN BEAST
Imagine I typed out YOUTHSUIT 300 times. I went to actually do that but felt it was getting a bit spammy.
 
[х] EXPLAIN FORBIDDEN LORE TO ME OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU! DON'T DUMB IT DOWN INTO SOME VAGUE SHIT! EXPLAIN FORBIDDEN LORE TO ME RIGHT NOW OR I'LL LITERALLY FUCKING KILL YOU! WHAT THE FUCK IS THE TENFOLD ABOMINATION? WHAT THE FUCK IS PRIMAL MALICE? DON'T DUMB IT DOWN OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU
 
[X] Action Plan: Politely Decline
[X] No

A or B.

I think the only thing C does is immediately remove all agency Hazo has (in the short term at least).
 
[X] EXPLAIN FORBIDDEN LORE TO ME OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU! DON'T DUMB IT DOWN INTO SOME VAGUE SHIT! EXPLAIN FORBIDDEN LORE TO ME RIGHT NOW OR I'LL LITERALLY FUCKING KILL YOU! WHAT THE FUCK IS THE TENFOLD ABOMINATION? WHAT THE FUCK IS PRIMAL MALICE? DON'T DUMB IT DOWN OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU
 
I'm halfway sincere about the vote ngl but I do grant that it's only halfway. I'll probably go edit in the greek letter after a bit so it doesn't count.
 
acidshill said:
Tsunade isn't going to be in charge for much longer.
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Good point! This is true.

acidshill said:
I think we can still be relevant and do interesting things, actually. Give us a few years for FOOM and the seal research train to chug along and we'll be pretty powerful. Relative to what we'll be able to do in a few years, people are still underestimating us.
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I agree with this! It's just that those interesting things won't be Necromancy, though. Also, Akatsuki ain't gonna just stand still for 'a few years' while we FOOM, either, and in fact nobody will. We'll get stronger faster, sure, but for all we know in a few years Pain will have established his thousand-year empire and what we do won't matter that much.

acidshill said:
Have you seen my proposal to convince Naruto to let us cooperate with Akatsuki? I do want to do that, and I think we can do that, just not right now.
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I did not! Thank you for mentioning it. Here are my scattered thoughts on the subject:

I'd be happy to vote for any plan that tries to persuade Hokage!Naruto into letting us work with Akatsuki, in the case where we stay in leaf and in a week or two Tsunade resigns in favor of Naruto as expected. However, that's not anywhere in this plan yet, and I don't want to vote for any flat-out decline-the-offer plans, since I worry that if a flat-rejection plan wins, we'll end up with a situation where no-work-with-akatsuki votes / kill-all-of-akatsuki votes consistently outweigh work-with-akatsuki votes.

Again, if Naruto does become Hokage and you propose such a plan, I'd be happy to vote for it; I do agree that Naruto seems much more persuadeable than Tsunade on this front. But, really, like, what do we lose if we bring in Tsunade now? She literally does not have the ability to order us to not suggest the same action plan to Naruto once Naruto takes office, even a Hokage can't say 'stop suggesting things to your boss' short of banishing us from Leaf entirely.

I suppose there's the off-chance that Tsunade hears our debrief and for some reason decides 'oh shit now I really can't leave the office, I've got to see this through to the end' and gets involved in micromanaging our necromancy-related plans, and then decides to order us to pursue a plan we'd rather not pursue, rather than giving Naruto the option to give us any orders at all? But, on net, I still feel like going for the immediate negotiations, right here and now, runs less of a risk of 'we vote not to go with akatsuki, then eventually we end up voting to kill akatsuki'.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, in the end I just really wanna go with Akatsuki and see Hazo in the sick red-and-black duds, and the vote is divided so strongly between 'do it' and 'refuse and then murder akatsuki' right now that I can't in good faith vote to decline Itachi's offer without feeling like I'm helping pivot the future of this quest towards the kill-akatsuki schemes, which I continue to consider both unworkable and undesirable.

Also, while I'm here, dropping some votes for pro-join-akatsuki plans that I haven't voted for yet.

[X] An Interview With Akatsuki
[X] Action Plan: Go All In With Two Fours
 
Noumero said:
Well, if we're going to die by meme vote, I'm glad it was this one. I feel it.
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We're coming up on 8 years worth of these characters batting questions aside with vague nonanswers or useless grunts or crazy inane hallucinated nonsense.

If the mechanics of this system weighted player-feelings as input in the slightest, trifling amount, then I can assure you that but a single "[х] EXPLAIN FORBIDDEN LORE TO ME OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU! DON'T DUMB IT DOWN INTO SOME VAGUE SHIT! EXPLAIN FORBIDDEN LORE TO ME RIGHT NOW OR I'LL LITERALLY FUCKING KILL YOU! WHAT THE FUCK IS THE TENFOLD ABOMINATION? WHAT THE FUCK IS PRIMAL MALICE? DON'T DUMB IT DOWN OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU" would cause Hazou's fist to wreathe itself in multicolored fractal flames and deliver an almighty bitch-slap to Itachi's face, dispelling the clone but somehow dealing enough Mental stress that he'd be in a vegetative state for the next forty in-game years.
 
I have updated the original post with the outline plan, it is now a proper plan:

Buggy said:
Okay, I've updated this plan. It should mostly be the same in specifics, i've just tried to make the wording more concise, added assisting talking points, tailored it towards being a conversation, and less like a outline.

Major differences are, as requested, I elaborated on the Iron Nerve but not lithosealing itself, and generally tried to convince Itachi that we are indeed hot shit. I fleshed out the Amity plan a little, but not to the detail of that other plan.

[X] Action Plan: Not Actually a Fleshed Out Action Plan
Word Count: ???
  • We would like to accept. Joining Akatsuki would align strongly with our goals, and it's only because of the severe consequences to the Dragonwar, our family, and our clan that we can't immediately accept.
  • Respectfully, we think you are underestimating our abilities as a Sealsmaster, and with it, our importance to the Dragonwar.
    • Our Bloodline allows us to permanently memorize the entirety of a seal from a glance and recreate it later, and we got a glance of it at great cost. Out of everyone in Leaf, we have the most detailed understanding of the Great Seal.
    • We are the most skilled Earthshaper in Leaf, which allows us to examine the seal safely from underground, and which enables future repairs to the Great Seal.
    • We also created the HOWs, which help stabilize the Great Seal, and we are the only one aside from a summon boss to have killed a dragon.
      • Do not elaborate on how if it can be helped. No need to poke at a sore point.
  • We would like to find a third option. Resurrecting our loved ones is a goal that everyone can support as much as peace, and we shouldn't have to give up the living to do it.
  • First, do we have permission to invite Ami? Ami is a third party who is trusted by both of us, and a world-class expert at finding third options in tricky political situations. We strongly believe that this situation would be better resolved with her help.
    • Ami is read in on the Necromancy project, and originally suggested that we revive Pain to assist with world peace, with all the treason that implies. She is on-board and OPSEC-safe.
  • If we can't invite Ami, here are a few ideas.
  • First idea: Go to Tsunade together. Itachi bluntly informs her that Akatsuki will be able to bring back the dead shortly.
    • She has a few ways to respond to this:
      • Option 1: She rallies against it with all her might. Leaf gets bombed.
        • Anyone other hidden village she tries to convince to help will not believe Akatsuki's word against Leaf, it would be seen as a ploy to turn the world against Akatsuki moments after suffering harsh sanctions.
      • Option 2: She stays out of it and keeps Hazo. Akatsuki does what they want and recovers Pain.
      • Option 3: She cooperates and donates Hazo, who was independently researching resurrection. Leaf gets concessions, such reviving Minato.
        • Minato shares Pain's ideals, and is much-beloved by Leaf. This is win/win.
    • This is not actually telling her anything new.
      • You announced that you wanted 'dimensional research'.
        • We reported our mission in O'Uzu in detail as soon as we got back. She'll figure it out.
      • We told a variety of trusted people about necromancy, including Ami, summons, clan heads, the hokage, and s-classers.
      • Leaf will figure out what you got and what you want to do with it.
      • Really, this just gets ahead of the game, and proactively prevents any plans to interfere.
  • Second idea: Make this a public AMITY venture.
    • Publicly announce that the next AMITY project is opening the rift and reviving the dead.
    • Gains the assistance of Orochimaru and Hazo.
    • Anyone revived will swear to uphold AMITY above all else, to the satisfaction of all AMITY members.
    • Akatsuki will swear not to unilaterally perform super-rituals.
    • AMITY gets more force for peace, everyone else gets their loved ones back.
    • Definitely bring in Ami for troubleshooting if we go with this.
  • Don't volunteer this, but if Itachi makes it clear he plans to kill us for refusing, agree to assist Akatsuki. Swear on Akane's Resurrection, and do whatever is necessary to convince them you will earnestly help them and not betray them.
    • Our death would cause all the same problems as if we left.
    • Obviously we'd prefer this instead of dying.
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MMKII said:
We're coming up on 8 years worth of these characters batting questions aside with vague nonanswers or useless grunts or crazy inane hallucinated nonsense.

If the mechanics of this system weighted player-feelings as input in the slightest, trifling amount, then I can assure you that but a single "[х] EXPLAIN FORBIDDEN LORE TO ME OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU! DON'T DUMB IT DOWN INTO SOME VAGUE SHIT! EXPLAIN FORBIDDEN LORE TO ME RIGHT NOW OR I'LL LITERALLY FUCKING KILL YOU! WHAT THE FUCK IS THE TENFOLD ABOMINATION? WHAT THE FUCK IS PRIMAL MALICE? DON'T DUMB IT DOWN OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU" would cause Hazou's fist to wreathe itself in multicolored fractal flames and deliver an almighty bitch-slap to Itachi's face, dispelling the clone but somehow dealing enough Mental stress that he'd be in a vegetative state for the next forty in-game years.
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Ok boss,

[X] EXPLAIN FORBIDDEN LORE TO ME OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU! DON'T DUMB IT DOWN INTO SOME VAGUE SHIT! EXPLAIN FORBIDDEN LORE TO ME RIGHT NOW OR I'LL LITERALLY FUCKING KILL YOU! WHAT THE FUCK IS THE TENFOLD ABOMINATION? WHAT THE FUCK IS PRIMAL MALICE? DON'T DUMB IT DOWN OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU
 
Zerovirus said:
Also, Akatsuki ain't gonna just stand still for 'a few years' while we FOOM, either, and in fact nobody will. We'll get stronger faster, sure, but for all we know in a few years Pain will have established his thousand-year empire and what we do won't matter that much.
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We can do uplift things and exploration/science things and fight the dragons and deal with the other lurking existential threats and probably attain some measure of influence in Pain's court. I don't think Pain establishing his thousand-year empire will mean that what we do doesn't matter much or that we won't be able to to interesting things. Frankly, I favor Pain's thousand-year empire because it frees us up to work on those other things without worrying about geopolitics.

Zerovirus said:
But, really, like, what do we lose if we bring in Tsunade now?
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Well, Itachi possibly doesn't agree to it and gets pissed off. Also, "I want to cooperate with Akatsuki just after they killed Asuma" is something of a hard sell that I'd like to optimize with Ami, instead of just jumping right into it.

Zerovirus said:
I still feel like going for the immediate negotiations, right here and now, runs less of a risk of 'we vote not to go with akatsuki, then eventually we end up voting to kill akatsuki'.
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Yeah, I understand your position here, and I hate the dynamic in this quest where sometimes it makes sense to strategically vote for a suboptimal choice so you can lock something in because you don't know what other people are going to vote for in the future. That said, I'm optimistic that we'll be able to get enough votes in the future to go with the persuade-Hokage-Naruto plan—most of the pro-joining-Akatsuki voters will still be around.
 
JustForThis said:
I think the only thing C does is immediately remove all agency Hazo has (in the short term at least).
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why would revealing we are confident we can make lithoseals remove more agency than hazou just saying he is a great sealmaster and has ES leveled and downloaded the great seal? especially since itachi is more interested in resurrection than great seal.
same question to all the other people who oppose C

edit:
an idea. we mention we are willing to spend a FP/aspects to convince itachi to let ami in, if it comes down to rolls. maybe even spend some XP on FPs
 
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Also, for voting sake, here's a option where we go all in about Lithosealing to convince Itachi.

Same as the prior plan, except it rewords that part to directly mention Lithosealing.

NOTE: DEPRECATED - lithosealing reveal has been moved to the primary plan!

[X] Action Plan: Not Actually a Fleshed Out Action Plan - Lithosealing Edition
Word Count: ???
  • We would like to accept. Joining Akatsuki would align strongly with our goals, and it's only because of the severe consequences to the Dragonwar, our family, and our clan that we can't immediately accept.
  • Respectfully, we think you are underestimating our abilities as a Sealsmaster, and with it, our importance to the Dragonwar.
    • We have rediscovered Lithosealing, the art of creating potent 3-dimensional seals like the Great Seal via Earthshaping.
      • We are the only person in Leaf, and possibly the only person in the world who knows this.
    • Additionally, we have the Iron Nerve, which allows us to perfectly memorize and recreate any seal with a glance. And we're the most skilled Earthshaper working on the problem by far.
      • This means we are the best placed to understand and repair the Great Seal. We have the bloodline, the knowledge of Lithosealing, and the jutsu required.
    • Finally, we have collaborated with Orochimaru as peers.
      • We have talked shop a dozen feet beneath the feet of Dragons, kept up with and critiqued his research papers with minimal effort, and we've worked alongside him in his lab.
  • We would like to find a workable third option. Resurrecting our loved ones is a goal that everyone can support as much as peace, and we shouldn't have to give up the living to do it.
  • First, do we have permission to invite Ami? Ami is a third party who is trusted by both of us, and a world-class expert at finding third options in tricky political situations. We strongly believe that this situation would be better resolved with her help.
    • Ami is OPSEC safe, we can trust her with this.
      • If necessary, reveal to Itachi that Ami already knows about Necromancy.
    • That said, lets not put her in a awkward position. Tell her that Akatsuki wants to publicly cooperate with Hazo or something and don't mention treason.
      • If she comes to her own conclusions about it, well, she can be trusted to keep them to herself.
  • If we can't invite Ami, here are a few ideas.
  • First idea: Revisiting our prior discussion about hiring us, demand Hazo from Leaf as a concession instead.
    • You have Leaf over a barrel. You can change the deal.
      • Call it a head for a head or something.
      • Leaf took someone valuable from you, so you take someone valuable from Leaf.
    • Leaf won't want to disown us if we're still assisting with the Dragonwar.
    • Tell them what you want; maybe our research is valuable and you want to keep us, maybe nothing.
    • This plan costs you nothing.
      • Although, relaxing another concession would make it easier for Leaf to accept.
  • Second idea: If that doesn't work, maybe we can get Leaf to hire us if we go about it differently...
    • First, we go to Tsunade. Bluntly inform her that you will soon be able to bring back the dead.
      • This is not actually telling her anything she won't learn on her own.
        • You announced that you wanted 'dimensional research'.
          • We reported our mission in O'Uzu in detail as soon as we got back. She'll figure it out.
        • We told a variety of trusted people about necromancy; summons, clan heads, the hokage, and s-classers.
        • Leaf will figure out what you got and what you want to do with it.
        • Really, this just gets ahead of the game, and proactively prevents any plans to interfere by telling her that you know she knows.
    • She has a few ways to respond to this:
      • Option 1: She rallies against it with all her might. Leaf gets bombed.
        • Any other hidden village she tries to convince to help will not believe Akatsuki's word against Leaf, it would be seen as a ploy to turn the world against Akatsuki moments after suffering harsh sanctions.
      • Option 2: She stays out of it and keeps Hazo. Akatsuki does what they want and recovers Pain.
      • Option 3: She cooperates and donates Hazo, who was independently researching resurrection. Leaf gets concessions and some manner of control over the situation through Hazo.
        • Revive peace-aligned Leaf heros like Minato. Minato would share Pain's ideals, and is much-beloved by Leaf. This is win/win.
  • Third idea: If neither of those are viable, what if we made resurrection a AMITY project?
    • Publicly announce that the next AMITY project is opening the rift and reviving the dead.
    • Gains the assistance of Orochimaru and Hazo, as well as any contributors from other AMITY members.
    • Any revivals must be someone who will positively impact the world, or swear to uphold AMITY.
    • Akatsuki will swear not to unilaterally perform super-rituals.
    • AMITY gets more force for peace, everyone else gets their loved ones back.
    • Definitely bring in Ami for troubleshooting if we go with this.
  • Don't volunteer this, but if Itachi makes it clear he plans to kill us for refusing, agree to assist Akatsuki. Swear on Akane's Resurrection, and do whatever is necessary to convince them you will earnestly help them and not betray them.
    • Our death would cause all the same problems as if we left.
    • Obviously we'd prefer this instead of dying.
 
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MMKII said:
We're coming up on 8 years worth of these characters batting questions aside with vague nonanswers or useless grunts or crazy inane hallucinated nonsense.
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Honestly these days, I often just wish for the quest to end so we can ask the QMs to answer all our spoiler questions about the lore. I'm not used to waiting this long for literary mysteries to be revealed and I don't like it.
 
acidshill said:
Honestly these days, I often just wish for the quest to end so we can ask the QMs to answer all our spoiler questions about the lore. I'm not used to waiting this long for literary mysteries to be revealed and I don't like it.
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Eh, I understand that, but I don't think it'd be satisfying for me. The joy's in the learning, not in the knowing. I want to tear out the truth from the world's flesh by force, not be handed it on a silver platter.

(If I just wanted Forbidden Lore, I'm perfectly able to invent my own.)
 
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