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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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[X] (GS) Tell Asuma, then tell the Leaf sealmasters\

Velorien said:
'll take that as a yes. Kindly don't get the thread shut down on suspicion of terrorism.
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Don't worry, working with fluorine is so dangerous that I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI hypes it up to terrorists. Just as a low effort way to weed some of them out.

How can you tell the fluorine chemist in the room? Count the fingers, anybody with 8 or fewer works with elemental fluorine on a regular basis
 
_The_Bomb said:
Speaking of…

I literally went to Chemistry office hours so I could learn how to chemically manufacture strategic amounts of a deadly, heavier-than-air gas that could be produced using commonly available technology and resources in 12th Century East Asia.

I have a lot of really helpful leads that could lead to something pretty good if I ever got around to researching the rest of it.
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I've said this before. There is a reason that the Byzantine empire considered bone porcelain manufacture a state secret. Something they, by the way, learned due to their key step on the silk road to China. Bone is calcium phosphate. Carbothermic reduction turns it into calcium phosphide. Reaction with the least but it moisture is itself extremely exothermic but also produces phosphine gas, which is not only extremely poisonous but has a habit of spontaneously igniting. Gee, wonder what the secret ingredient of Greek fire which made it only burn hotter if you poured water on it and why the available countermeasures were specifically aged urine which results in ammonia which surgeons use when withdrawing phosphorus tracer rounds from wounds to prevent them from spontaneously reigniting?

Now, a misterator filled with a fine powder suspended in a napalm-like sticky sap and oil base, that would be a war crime. But, hey, there's a world war on. War-crime-o'clock.

Hey, who do we know with an established history of interest in ultra-hot kilns to mass produce optics and a skunkworks team of civilian engineers?
 
Pharos said:
Why? Ino should be pretty trustworthy. She's part of InaShikaChou, and we're allied with the Nara already. Ino would also probably support our necromancy goals since her father died in the Collapse. I don't think we would tell her about FOOM anytime soon, but if FOOM had to leak to anyone Ino would hardly be among the worst.
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True, but giving up the secrets to ultimate power is never a smart move. Because now you don't have the advantage.

seekingflame said:
Edit: beside, we all know Hazou long term track record of keeping secrets, and even if it improved I won't put him beyond risk of relapse in close company.
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Yeah this is true.
 
Kiba said:
1) We don't have the money.
2) Having a team of civilian engineer in a new field means we would be basically starting from scratch.
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I'm not sure we don't have the money, a team of 10 engineers paid at 2.5x the civilian subsistence wage would only be R 100000, basically pocket change for us. Assume material cost of another R 100000 and it's still not much for us. It worked really well for skysliders, maybe the Tower wants in on it?

Have we seen Asuma's reaction to skysliders yet?
 
Sir Stompy said:
[X] (GS) Tell Asuma, then tell the Leaf sealmasters\


Don't worry, working with fluorine is so dangerous that I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI hypes it up to terrorists. Just as a low effort way to weed some of them out.

How can you tell the fluorine chemist in the room? Count the fingers, anybody with 8 or fewer works with elemental fluorine on a regular basis
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Also, found the formula. Getting Hazou to figure out how to identify or create hydrogen peroxide and manganese oxide would be a PITA, but there fortunately is an easy work around if you just are willing to heat the mixture. Fluorite and sulfuric acid. Both of those should be available. Fortunately, part of experimentation with glass will involve throwing random things in, and Kagome is the closest thing to a geologist in the setting.



Kiba said:
1) We don't have the money.
2) Having a team of civilian engineer in a new field means we would be basically starting from scratch.
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There is literally a clan specialized in glass optics since before the village system was founded who has agreed to work with us on using civilians and seals to mass-produce them. The Hokage himself has already said that he's already seen returns on Hazou's idea of providing the underprivileged the resources they need to thrive and would probably be willing to fund anything that gets him more ninja during a world war if Hazou points out that many otherwise excellent candidates are being crossed off because their eyes aren't good enough.

This is coming from somebody who for as long as they can remember only ever wanted to be one thing before their eyes turned out to be crap and the military won't allow anybody to break Mach whose uncorrected vision isn't at least 20/20.
 
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Lailoken said:
Also, found the formula. Getting Hazou to figure out how to identify or create hydrogen peroxide and manganese oxide would be a PITA, but there fortunately is an easy work around if you just are willing to heat the mixture. Fluorite and sulfuric acid. Both of those should be available. Fortunately, part of experimentation with glass will involve throwing random things in, and Kagome is the closest thing to a geologist in the setting.
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I don't know how accessible oil of vitriol (since it's the 12th century) and fluorite (first described in 1529) would be in Leaf, they do seem to lack some materials that were common in the far larger IRL population of Japan. Capturing the gas is the bigger problem. Flourine is corrosive to metal, glass, wood, stone(?) and ceramic(?). We don't have PTFEs. I suppose a sufficiently thick ES'd granite container would take a while to corrode away, seal the contraption in a macerator before it leaks.

Still seems dangerous as fuck, since there's no way to tell how much longer your stone vessel will last.
 
Sir Stompy said:
I don't know how accessible oil of vitriol (since it's the 12th century) and fluorite (first described in 1529) would be in Leaf, they do seem to lack some materials that were common in the far larger IRL population of Japan. Capturing the gas is the bigger problem. Flourine is corrosive to metal, glass, wood, stone(?) and ceramic(?). We don't have PTFEs. I suppose a sufficiently thick ES'd granite container would take a while to corrode away, seal the contraption in a macerator before it leaks.

Still seems dangerous as fuck, since there's no way to tell how much longer your stone vessel will last.
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Storage seals or UGLSPs.
 
Sir Stompy said:
I don't know how accessible oil of vitriol (since it's the 12th century) and fluorite (first described in 1529) would be in Leaf, they do seem to lack some materials that were common in the far larger IRL population of Japan. Capturing the gas is the bigger problem. Flourine is corrosive to metal, glass, wood, stone(?) and ceramic(?). We don't have PTFEs. I suppose a sufficiently thick ES'd granite container would take a while to corrode away, seal the contraption in a macerator before it leaks.

Still seems dangerous as fuck, since there's no way to tell how much longer your stone vessel will last.
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Fortunately, fluorine reacts with petty much any surface to produce fluorides, which naturally passivizes it. It's why hydrofluoric acid is safe to store in metal containers just so long as there is not the slightest scratch in the coating.

Now, let's move on to figuring out how to add aqua regalia to it by producing nitric acid and hydrochloric acid. Actually, I think there's an old calcium process which would produce hypochlorous acid, which would be even nicer.
 
faflec said:
Storage seals or UGLSPs.
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If your container is on fire, it's a little difficult to shove it into a storage seal.
Lailoken said:
Fortunately, fluorine reacts with petty much any surface to produce fluorides, which naturally passivizes it. It's why hydrofluoric acid is safe to store in metal containers just so long as there is not the slightest scratch in the coating.

Now, let's move on to figuring out how to add aqua regalia to it by producing nitric acid and hydrochloric acid. Actually, I think there's an old calcium process which would produce hypochlorous acid, which would be even nicer.
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Crack in the coating = metal-fluorine fire. Good times
 
Sir Stompy said:
If your container is on fire, it's a little difficult to shove it into a storage seal.
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eaglejarl said:
"Well, say we make a box and put a bunch of granite in the bottom so it doesn't burn through. Then we pile in as much wood as the seal will hold, and set it all on fire. When it's burning really well, we seal it into a macerator that's set to grind things very small and eject them at top speed. When it gets unsealed it'll be a wall of fire going really fast."

Keiko raised an eyebrow, immediately followed by a hand.

Hazō smothered a sigh. Something embarrassing was coming, he just knew it. "Yes, Keiko?"

"Why is the box necessary?" Keiko asked. "Couldn't you just get a big log, light part of it on fire, and seal it by having the non-burning part touch the seal?"

"Madness!" Kagome scoffed. "You can't do that! That would...uh...that would.... No, wait, that would totally work."
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EDIT: Ignorant of the point, UGLSP will let us suck up fluoride gas without the need for a container; the seal itself is the container.
 
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Fluorine is a gas so if there's a hole in the container (like if it's on fire) the gas will rush out and just go react with the ground, the air, and-since it's fluorine-pretty much anything inbetween.

I'm not saying this is impossible. I'm saying it's dangerous and difficult and tbh we got plenty of other things that are more effective weapons that are much less difficult and dangerous to manufacture.

Poison gas is just overrated, it's not a good weapon and it never was IRL. It's even less good in MfD where static targets are so few and far between.
 
faflec said:
EDIT: Ignorant of the point, UGLSP will let us suck up fluoride gas without the need for a container; the seal itself is the container.
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To expand on this, to the best of my knowledge, it's utterly unworkable to use a UGLSP near the fluorine gas. UGLSP is very short range and made of paper, where the fluorine fire is busy at 1800 C melting through the floor.
 
Hydrochloric acid is just a matter of draining and distilling stomach juice. Nitric acid is more of a pain. Blah, while probably something a clean which builds sunglasses is familiar with, we probably don't want to bet on large amounts of copper nitrate.

Grrr. We might have to break out the lightning jutsu on this one.


faflec said:
EDIT: Ignorant of the point, UGLSP will let us suck up fluoride gas without the need for a container; the seal itself is the container.
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We don't even need the gas. Just add water and convert it to liquid hydrofluoric acid. Almost as evil when delivered as an aerosol by misterator and much less of a hassle.


Hey, has anybody talked about loading misterators with malodorants?


Sir Stompy said:
Fluorine is a gas so if there's a hole in the container (like if it's on fire) the gas will rush out and just go react with the ground, the air, and-since it's fluorine-pretty much anything inbetween.

I'm not saying this is impossible. I'm saying it's dangerous and difficult and tbh we got plenty of other things that are more effective weapons that are much less difficult and dangerous to manufacture.

Poison gas is just overrated, it's not a good weapon and it never was IRL. It's even less good in MfD where static targets are so few and far between.
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But... but...
View: https://youtu.be/YcR9k8o4I0w
 
Lailoken said:
Hey, who do we know with an established history of interest in ultra-hot kilns to mass produce optics and a skunkworks team of civilian engineers?
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We can add it to the list of civilian research teams to fund.

Lailoken said:
The Hokage himself has already said that he's already seen returns on Hazou's idea of providing the underprivileged the resources they need to thrive and would probably be willing to fund anything that gets him more ninja during a world war if Hazou points out that many otherwise excellent candidates are being crossed off because their eyes aren't good enough.
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Exactly this. As soon as the research shows early promise, we should be able to get further funding from Asuma.

Lailoken said:
Fluorite and sulfuric acid. Both of those should be available. Fortunately, part of experimentation with glass will involve throwing random things in, and Kagome is the closest thing to a geologist in the setting.
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Are there any traits about fluorite you know of that Hazou-pilot could plausibly use begin experimenting with it?
 
Sir Stompy said:
To expand on this, to the best of my knowledge, it's utterly unworkable to use a UGLSP near the fluorine gas. UGLSP is very short range and made of paper, where the fluorine fire is busy at 1800 C melting through the floor.
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Velorien said:
Usamatsu's Glorious Life-Saving Purifier
Repeatedly absorbs all gas within a 60-degree 3-metre cone in rapid bursts of suction. The gas goes into a storage space. Airlike gas is simultaneously expelled from the storage space via a separate identical cone. Anything not needed to produce the airlike gas (e.g. poison) remains trapped in the space.

Note that this seal merely removes substances from air. It does not add, so if your breathing has converted all the oxygen into CO2, the seal is not going to save you. Note also that Usamatsu had no idea about the proper chemical makeup of air, and just went with something that didn't kill lab animals when they breathed it (in the short-term).
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Put the reagents in an appropriate container with a conical top and the UGLSP on top of that. As the reagents mix and produce fluorine gas the UGLSP will suck up the gas before it has the opportunity to burn the container.

Edit: Actually, why are we bothering? Let's put all the reagents in a storage seal with a heat source and let the mixture do its thing on its own, we don't even need to do individual reactions.
 
Pharos said:
We can add it to the list of civilian research teams to fund.


Exactly this. As soon as the research shows early promise, we should be able to get further funding from Asuma.


Are there any traits about fluorite you know of that Hazou-pilot could plausibly use begin experimenting with it?
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Not my field, but while it wasn't individually isolated and identified until fairly recently it was already used as a gemstone earlier than 77AD. Given that the world has lead and therefore lead mines they probably have sources for it. Given that lead is used in glass the glass clan probably knows about it.


faflec said:
Put the reagents in an appropriate container with a conical top and the UGLSP on top of that. As the reagents mix and produce fluorine gas the UGLSP will suck up the gas before it has the opportunity to burn the container.

Edit: Actually, why are we bothering? Let's put all the reagents in a storage seal with a heat source and let the mixture do its thing on its own, we don't even need to do individual reactions.
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Heh, I remember that the last time I suggested something like the later approach your response was "screaming in Jiraiya".
 
faflec said:
If he has a problem with it he can resurrect his commitment-phobic ass and yell it himself.
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New plan: force Jiraiya to yank himself out of the grave out of sheer terror at what we get up to without his supervision.

My parents would sympathize. Have I ever mentioned the time I blew up the kitchen and left a broken water pipe from the floor above pouring unstoppable water on unquenchable fire from broken gas lines underneath because I was six years old and wanted boiled eggs real quick while forgetting to check that the emergency release valve on the pressure cooker was unobscured?

God, I hope they tipped that babysitter well.
 
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faflec said:
Put the reagents in an appropriate container with a conical top and the UGLSP on top of that. As the reagents mix and produce fluorine gas the UGLSP will suck up the gas before it has the opportunity to burn the container.

Edit: Actually, why are we bothering? Let's put all the reagents in a storage seal with a heat source and let the mixture do its thing on its own, we don't even need to do individual reactions.
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How do we get the gas out afterwards? The fluorine gas remains trapped forever. As to your second point, time doesn't pass in a storage seal and the reaction is kinda slow, unsealing it wouldn't get you much gas at all.
 
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