- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Really? Aside from one three-or-four line exchange that I can think of, I would say that it's been remarkably cooperative. Maybe I missed some stuff.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
Really? Aside from one three-or-four line exchange that I can think of, I would say that it's been remarkably cooperative. Maybe I missed some stuff.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I'll admit some frustration with the current update, but I also recognize that it is in-line with the plan and in-character for all those involved. Further, I also recognize that I have been disconnected from the quest for about a week and half, and thus, have not contributed towards planmaking for these last two voting cycles. Whatever frustration I may have is, ultimately, undercut by the sheer fact that I did not lend my voice to the outcome. Perhaps the results might've been different, perhaps not, but I didn't contribute, so the point is moot.
I do think that it's a little much to place all of the blame on Oneiros's head. She's contributed many good plans to the story (the Minami Conversation, namely, was a theoretically perfect plan that Hazou-the-character was too childish/socially-inadept to accomplish in full). Furthermore, it seems that those who voted for it and those who were active within the voting cycle did not notice the issue, either. Please note, this is not a condemnation of yourself, or for those who were active --I, after all, am guilty of inaction. I am merely making the observation that there is blame to be shared (including myself), and not just one person.
I would propose that we all take half an hour to cool down, and return to this thread with level heads. We're a great community, and we're better than this. Behaving in such a way does a disservice to yourself, to this community, and the overall story that has been crafted by the hard-won efforts of our wonderful QMs. If I am overreaching and stepping beyond my place, then I apologize, but I hate to see this community (that welcomed me with open arms, patience, and a compassion that brings me awe) dogpiling on someone so vehemently.
This is not our way.
I do think that it's a little much to place all of the blame on Oneiros's head. She's contributed many good plans to the story (the Minami Conversation, namely, was a theoretically perfect plan that Hazou-the-character was too childish/socially-inadept to accomplish in full). Furthermore, it seems that those who voted for it and those who were active within the voting cycle did not notice the issue, either. Please note, this is not a condemnation of yourself, or for those who were active --I, after all, am guilty of inaction. I am merely making the observation that there is blame to be shared (including myself), and not just one person.
I would propose that we all take half an hour to cool down, and return to this thread with level heads. We're a great community, and we're better than this. Behaving in such a way does a disservice to yourself, to this community, and the overall story that has been crafted by the hard-won efforts of our wonderful QMs. If I am overreaching and stepping beyond my place, then I apologize, but I hate to see this community (that welcomed me with open arms, patience, and a compassion that brings me awe) dogpiling on someone so vehemently.
This is not our way.
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- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Well, I did walk in just as you told someone to go fuck themselves... Anyway, Discord moves too fast for me. Can't easily go back to see what people were talking about in the lead up, can't think of how to respond with some thought, can't hold people accountable for what they might have said a day ago...
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
I mean there have been other plans, but in this one Oneiros really doesn't seem to be to blame. I'd go so far as to say that nobody would have caught this 'mistake' even in the days where voter participation was multiples of what it is now. And that slipping up on Noburi's bloodline was a much more obvious mistake that would have been easier to catch than this.
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
I'm not sure if she has a small amount of it or not, honestly. Good point that this doesn't fully rule out environment. We need more data.
That's why we need more information on their internal politics. We don't really know who has power within the Hyuga, or how much each person/group has. Heck, for all we know Motokazu counts as an elder because of ninja life expectancy and the Collapse killing off all of the previous ones. It would be helpful to know exactly what the situation is, because there may be something we can do to influence them. But we won't know if there is anything, or what it might be, until we have that information.
I prefer that we know more about the war than we know about the internal politics.
- Location
- United States
@eaglejarl I'm confused.
This seems to indicate we've been asking around, assessing interest, and presumably in a reasonably public manner. Cannai seems to know about pretty much everything happening in his territory and would be expected to know that we've been trying to find a dog interesting in going to the Pangolin embassy. We certainly never indicated that it was a hidden agenda and would have used precisely zero efforts to hide it
But here, Cannai is exceptionally upset for us doing... the same thing? The very next part of the plan was to talk to Cannai. Admittedly, it wasn't in the plan, but Cannai wouldn't have known we weren't first checking if they were interested before getting his permission - no reason to bother the Boss asking for permission to send X to a foreign nation if X isn't willing to go. Either way, we have literally done this before, talked to a bunch of dogs about going to the Pangolin embassy and none were interested, and no one got upset at us.
Is there something else I'm missing for why these comparable inquiries of different dogs were treated so differently by Cannai?
This seems to indicate we've been asking around, assessing interest, and presumably in a reasonably public manner. Cannai seems to know about pretty much everything happening in his territory and would be expected to know that we've been trying to find a dog interesting in going to the Pangolin embassy. We certainly never indicated that it was a hidden agenda and would have used precisely zero efforts to hide it
But here, Cannai is exceptionally upset for us doing... the same thing? The very next part of the plan was to talk to Cannai. Admittedly, it wasn't in the plan, but Cannai wouldn't have known we weren't first checking if they were interested before getting his permission - no reason to bother the Boss asking for permission to send X to a foreign nation if X isn't willing to go. Either way, we have literally done this before, talked to a bunch of dogs about going to the Pangolin embassy and none were interested, and no one got upset at us.
Is there something else I'm missing for why these comparable inquiries of different dogs were treated so differently by Cannai?
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think that another lesson (if not the lesson) is that from here on out, we treat linking in plans with the same caution that someone who wishes to remain alive treats sealing research. The issue isn't that we didn't catch this, period - it's that we caught it and didn't include it in the linked plan.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
I guess I'm kinda upset, but also like... dang chill. Yall really just made somebody commit thread sepukku out of shame?
Plus I dunno if it's tempting fate to say this but I kinda feel like this is one of those situations that end up being rewritten to be less bad*. Or at least mitigated in future updates.
*bad as in consequences/reactions to update, not bad as in poor writing, which asking something to be rewritten can be easily misconstrued as
Plus I dunno if it's tempting fate to say this but I kinda feel like this is one of those situations that end up being rewritten to be less bad*. Or at least mitigated in future updates.
*bad as in consequences/reactions to update, not bad as in poor writing, which asking something to be rewritten can be easily misconstrued as
- Location
- United States
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We presented arguments such that there is a non-zero chance of either a retcon of some variety or a softening of Cannai's reaction when we next speak to him.
(Specifically - because we previously approached Dogs to be representatives at the Conclave, either Mari would have heard us talk about international politics and gone 'whoa, you keep fucking that one up - slow down, go back to square one, tell me everything' and then pointed out 'you need to check with Cannai first' or that in our conversations about the Conclave with Cannai, we would have mentioned wanting a representative there, and he would have given us clear instructions about how to make that happen/not happen.)
- Location
- United States
There were a few other arguments as well, the most convincing of which is that Cannai is Hazō's primary point of contact for the dogs and that it would be pretty OOC for Hazō to not ask him for advice on who to talk to. Or that Cannai wouldn't notice when Hazō repeatedly talked to members of Cannai's immediate pack about this. Or that….
I actually typed out a full(?) list of what was discussed. Let me paste it below.
EDIT: Also this, which wasn't a part of the VC discussion but I feel is an accurate summary of some preVC discussion in the #mfd channel.
I think the problem here is that, from the perspective of most of the thread, stationing the dog at the pangolin embassy went from "Oh by the way, you don't actually have one" to "Ok! Let's ask around" to "You asked around and its a hard sell that none of the dogs would take" to "Maybe we could sell it to these two people who would want to go for X reason" to "No, we asked and they didn't want to" to "Actually you didn't ask these specific people" to "Ok, let's ask these specific individuals" to "Cannai is furious that you asked a dog about this"
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- Location
- United States
@FaintlySorcerous this is the linked plan I mentioned (the sand trip isn't the relevant part and may get scrapped due to recent events so feel free to ignore it). I wanted to bring it to your attention long before it comes up to vote because you mentioned wanting to through it "with a fine-toothed comb."
Also here's some context for the linking.
- Location
- United States
Ah, @eaglejarl , my apologies I'm not on the Discord and now I feel bad since it looks like I made similar arguments to what you were already dealing with there.
- Location
- Liverpool
Leaving Analysis on the dog stuff alone for the time being, there's still lots of other content to work through. Given the VC happened as I was going to bed, I think I'll commit to focusing on some of the other update details, and having faith in other folks to have level heads and rational discussions.
That's brutal. Almost antithetical to uplift, and very against the biggest altruistic act we've seen Haru do.
Plus, lack of food might do it, but otherwise this just seems like a constant escalating thing. It might logistically stop an enemy, but not emotionally. Especially if they don't care about civilians that much.
Oh right, didn't we pitch large-scale terrain manipulation to make an area inhabitable for humans as a war tactic? That happened.
This seems very much like survivor's guilt. Given the pursuit, odds are Haru would have also died if not for the boots (and aren't we glad for them and that stunt now?), And it doesn't seem like he could have helped. He may even intellectually know that. That's really rough. And he wasn't even going to initially talk to us about it. I wonder if he was going to talk to someone else about it, or keep it bottled up.
Yeah... Birthday update, dog update, and skyslider update all could have been viable. Not even including the Ami portion.
For me, I remember at one point it was "continue previous plan", and after being told that the nested plan was allowed in this case and vaguely remember not finding the plan particularly offensive, focusing on other things. I didn't really clue in that things were being added/a plan developed within the plan.
I do think this is another good argument for not having nested plans. Not just because it's harder for QMs (though that alone would be sufficient (velocity. Heh)), but because it does make following along harder.
The least we can do is try to improve the plan process to avoid this. Even without Dog drama, the plan was negative XP, and that's sadly fair. We all dropped the ball on this one.
Now:
Who's ready to scream in faflec and Kagome, and then dump all our XP into earth shaping? Because I can't think of a good alternative.
That's brutal. Almost antithetical to uplift, and very against the biggest altruistic act we've seen Haru do.
Plus, lack of food might do it, but otherwise this just seems like a constant escalating thing. It might logistically stop an enemy, but not emotionally. Especially if they don't care about civilians that much.
Oh right, didn't we pitch large-scale terrain manipulation to make an area inhabitable for humans as a war tactic? That happened.
This seems very much like survivor's guilt. Given the pursuit, odds are Haru would have also died if not for the boots (and aren't we glad for them and that stunt now?), And it doesn't seem like he could have helped. He may even intellectually know that. That's really rough. And he wasn't even going to initially talk to us about it. I wonder if he was going to talk to someone else about it, or keep it bottled up.
Yeah... Birthday update, dog update, and skyslider update all could have been viable. Not even including the Ami portion.
For me, I remember at one point it was "continue previous plan", and after being told that the nested plan was allowed in this case and vaguely remember not finding the plan particularly offensive, focusing on other things. I didn't really clue in that things were being added/a plan developed within the plan.
I do think this is another good argument for not having nested plans. Not just because it's harder for QMs (though that alone would be sufficient (velocity. Heh)), but because it does make following along harder.
The least we can do is try to improve the plan process to avoid this. Even without Dog drama, the plan was negative XP, and that's sadly fair. We all dropped the ball on this one.
Now:
Who's ready to scream in faflec and Kagome, and then dump all our XP into earth shaping? Because I can't think of a good alternative.
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- Location
- Italy
It wouldn't do much IMHO. My proposal would be:
-Tell Asuma
-Use it to:
A) Convince Oro to help
B) Use the Summon Boss Rush to end the war ASAP
C) Contact the other villages
D) Contact everyone we can find
E) Try to obtain the Resolve Boost technique from the Yamanaka or the Summon Clans. Literally go to the Bears,Spider,ect and explain "We need this to save the world, we're fully willing to trade for it"
F) FOOM like our lives depend on it on Resolve/Sealing. Because it does.
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
Why don't you think leveling Earth Shaping would work? I would think it would make a lot of sense for it to be possible to level ES super high and go around fixing the cracks one area at a time once the 7th path bosses get rid of the dragon guarding the seal. It'll take a very long time, but it's fairly straightforward as an overall concept and is still much faster than waiting to FOOM our sealing high enough to figure out an alternative solution.
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- Location
- Italy
From everything we know, seals aren't something you can just "fix", moreover, they aren't something you can fix while active while adding another material to it. It would be like using a different ink to fix a working paper seal. Especially a Sage level seal. Finally, the biggest problem in all of this is that if the Seal is fundamentally broken, then we need to recreate a Sage level Seal(or at least something similar, like safely deactivate the Great Seal, or fix the Great Seal with Sealing blackbox), and all the ES in the world is not going to help us if we don't have the Sealing needed to make it work. Basically, if Seal is broken, as problematic as it is to admit it, we need a set of skills at high level, not just one.
That said set of skill is possible or not to elevate is another problem, but the simulation does not(And should not) care about our needs. Unless your argument is that we can just "Earthshape" the seal itself, but that seems to a recipe for bad things. Manipulating an active seal would mess with Chakra in the seal and...that does not seems like a good idea.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
I am a centrist: I am almost certain we will need Earthshaping to fix the Great Seal but I doubt Hazou could make good use of it right now without Sealing: 80+
How far along Kagome is with the summoning scroll anyways?
I think with him inspecting the seal along with Hazo would improve progress on that regard.
First thing we have to do is to properly
convince all of the summoner clans present about the Great Seal crisis. Too many people are on the fence. And then send word to the other clans for emissaries to verify for themselves. Then, they in turn can let the other nations on the human path know about this.
Better, if we find some dire irrefutable proof that this is a crisis to get everyone working together.
I think with him inspecting the seal along with Hazo would improve progress on that regard.
First thing we have to do is to properly
convince all of the summoner clans present about the Great Seal crisis. Too many people are on the fence. And then send word to the other clans for emissaries to verify for themselves. Then, they in turn can let the other nations on the human path know about this.
Better, if we find some dire irrefutable proof that this is a crisis to get everyone working together.
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