Initial trust is unnecessary. The whole problem is that the Condors are broken remnants of their former selves. If they cross their patrons they die. It would be like freaking out over the concern that accepting a few thousand Somali refugees will result in a coup.
Bear in mind that, politics being what it is, there has very much been at least one case in recent irl history where a few thousand refugees were considered to be an invading army. The dogs seem more chill than that, but for all we know they may be hiding some kind of horrible nationalism the same way the pangolins were actually xenophobic nazis.

That being said, it shouldn't hurt to ask. I agree that we should look at non-sealtech ideas, since it means the dogs don't have to train people just to use the seals.
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail
I'm not sure if I should wait for a info post before asking these but:
What does Hazou think would happen if he signs a second summoning scroll?
Best case: You would explode from interdimensional shearing forces. He does not fully understand the mechanics and the QMs don't particularly want to have to invent an entire self-consistent non-Euclidean physics so he's never going to be able to fully understand it. Still, he's confident that it's not survivable.

Or if he (or a normal person) looked at the beginning of the summoning scroll?
The beginning of the scroll is where all the actual sealwork is. Hazō saw that when he looked at the Pangolin Scroll. He didn't recognize any of the names on the signatories list aside from Ui Isas and Keiko. There are no dates, so he doesn't know when the scroll was created. As to why Asuma said that, most likely he put that rule in place because it's how he was taught, and he was probably taught that because no sane person wants anyone experimenting with something that is designed to tear holes in reality.

Why does he think it would be dangerous for non-summoners to be taught the information that summoners know?
It would encourage people to research tearing holes in reality. There may be other reasons but that one is more than good enough.

What is all other interesting forbidden lore Hazou learned from being taught summoning?
Stuff that we have not defined and will create on an as-needed basis. See prior comments about not wanting to spend spoons on inventing a self-consistent non-Euclidean physics.

@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail

Any thoughts on the conclusion of the Bowling Omake contest?
Thank you for the reminder.

After extensive consideration and an inconclusive epic duel upon the peak of Mount Death, the Bowling Omake contest goes to @Shrooms for DESTINY OF THE SHARINGAINS: BOWL-O-RAMA. @Shrooms is hereby awarded 12 XP.

The characters are also awarded 12 XP.
 
The Dogs and Pangolin aren't active enemies.

Cannai even mentioned that he never met a Pangolin, his whole perception is informed by his previous knowledge and what Hazou told him.

Without further Skytowers they can't easily maintain their Empire, their war with the Hyena might end soon and who knows whats up with their "alliance" with the Leopards.

They could ally with someone (Leopards and/or Hyena (but they probably would rather have no war right know)) against the Dogs, but that would mean allying against us and we are allied with Keiko, Summoning clans supposedly take that somewhat serious or Ami's plan wouldn't really work.

And the Pangolin know that we could easily give the Dog clan Skytowers, negating any real advantage they could have (assuming Keiko would even sell them Skytowers again).

The Pangolin are fully willing to ally with clans for their benifit :

They allied with the Otters and the Toads against the Condors
They wanted to ally with the Mara, Capybara and the Crows
The pact with the Leopards to take over the Hyena and them govern it

Introducing them to each other might just be all that is needed, if the Toads care we can have a three-way meeting and maybe Enma want's to be involved too.

Also, Pangolin without Skytowers aren't actually that dangerous, they got their ass kicked by the Monkeys and they didn't invade the Leopards.
 
Thank you for the reminder.

After extensive consideration and an inconclusive epic duel upon the peak of Mount Death, the Bowling Omake contest goes to @Shrooms for DESTINY OF THE SHARINGAINS: BOWL-O-RAMA. @Shrooms is hereby awarded 12 XP.

The characters are also awarded 12 XP.
Alright, I think we need to talk about Keiko and FOOM. At this moment she is 50XP away from having access, and we need to make the decision whether or not to bring her in the know.

I'm inclined towards YES, bring her in, since she's still obligated towards keeping our clan secrets even from the Nara (I don't see a situation where this would run into conflict), and I doubt Ami would want to pressure her sister on clan secrets given their relationship.

But that's just me. What do you all think?

Side note: Akane is 166 XP away, Hazou is 330 XP away.
 
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Things in Jiraiya's Notes
  • His Lightning Lash jutsu from Chapter 223. Creates a weapon, much like Noburi's Water Whip, but more flexible:
    • Will cut through things or wrap around them as you choose (e.g. it cut Hana's sword but wrapped around her neck)
    • Will send non-lethal shocks to a person it's wrapped around.
  • Lots and lots of seals
    • Earth Pillar Seal: when activated, extrudes a 50cm thick pillar of chakra construct stone at a respectable speed.
    • City of Pillars. Causes 1d6 dozen stone pillars of various randomly-chosen heights (5m to 30m) and diameters (10cm to 500 cm) to erupt out of the ground in a large area. For some reason, they all have either the kanji for 'Dream' or 'Sunshine' on them.
    • Twin Repulsion Seals: When both are active, they repel each other when they get too close.
    • Naruto's bijū seal. Not complete information but it's a good start.


EDIT: Note that this post is obseleted by the one in the Informational threadmarks.
 
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The following is a non-confirmed quote from eaglejarl on the discord about ninja demographics that he wants checked for plausibility:

Now, as a recap, Konoha in a 'stable state' (i.e. before the USoUD and BotG) has about 1200 Genin, 250 Chuunin, and 50 Jounin. Okay, let's go.

Genin:
Genin have a fairly even death rate here, let's average that out and say that a Genin lives from 12 to 17, five years. This means that 240 Genin die, get promoted, or go missing a year and 240 Genin graduate from the Academy each year.

Chuunin:
Chuunin can be put in two groups: doomed Chuunin and Jounin-track Chuunin. Doomed Chuunin die in less than a year, let's round that off to a flat year for simplicity. Jounin-track Chuunin stay Chuunin for about six years before becoming Jounin. This means that for every year of Doomed Chuunin there are six years of Jounin-track Chuunin to work with.

There are 250 Chuunin in Konoha. If 2/3 of new Chuunin are doomed Chuunin, then there are (1/3 * 6) = 2 years of Chuunin, 3 times as many Jounin-track Chuunin as doomed Chuunin walking around at a given moment. That means there are about 190 Jounin-track Chuunin and about 60 doomed Chuunin in Konoha.

This amounts to a draw of about 90 Genin a year, meaning that of the 240 Genin that graduate from the Academy, about 150 will die as Genin, about 60 will die as doomed Chuunin, and about 30 will likely hit Jounin.

Jounin:
There are three categories for Jounin here: doomed Jounin, regular Jounin, and S-track Jounin. Doomed Jounin die within the first year, and the regular Jounin population die within five years (let's say an average of 3), leaving only the S-track Jounin alive beyond that.

There are 50 Jounin in Leaf in a stable state. That means that there's one year of doomed Jounin, three years of regular Jounin, and something like thirty years of S-rank Jounin that together equal 50.

Starting from the S-rankers, let's make a generous estimate that Konoha averages about 5 S-rankers normally. That drops our Jounin pool down to 45 between the doomed and regular Jounin.

At a draw of 30 new Jounin per year, n of them are doomed Jounin and m of them are regular Jounin. With a total non-S-track Jounin population of about 45, we get the following equations: n + 3m = 45 and n + m = 30. Rearrange for n = 30 - m and substitute as (30 - m) + 3m = 45 and solve for m = 7.5. Round that off and we can conclude that of the 30 new Jounin Leaf gets each year, 22 of them are doomed Jounin and 8 of them are Regular Jounin. Or, in other words, 73% of Jounin die in their first year and 27% die within five years.

(S-rankers have been omitted from these calculations because 5 S-rankers at 30 years per S-ranker is one S-ranker every six years, a rounding error of the Jounin population).

In Conclusion:
Taking the not confirmed numbers eaglejarl provided on discord and making a few small assumptions to extrapolate from them:
  • The Academy class size is something like 240 Genin a year.
  • About 150 of those Genin (63%) will die as a Genin, and the other 90 will be promoted to Chuunin.
  • About 60 of those Chuunin (67%) will die within a year, and the other 30 will be promoted to Jounin.
  • About 22 of those Jounin (73%) will die within a year, and the rest will die within five years.
  • S-rankers are a rounding error.
edit: math error in Chuunin calcs.
edit2: improved Jounin model and fixed calcs.
@Inferno Vulpix Is this the most up to date version?
 
But that's just me. What do you all think?
I'm not at all sure this would be a good idea to do in the short to mid term for a variety of reasons.

Chiefly, its not like Shikamaru *and* Ami at the very least won't be able to put two and two together very shortly if we do this? If Keiko is continuously visiting Noburi for chakra water and making ludicrous gains to outside observers, then they are going to wonder whats going on. Keiko exists in an environment that isn't really under our direct observation, and this opens up a whole other vector for infosec problems (Keiko goes on missions, the Pangolins might notice something, Keiko interacts with the Nara, etc.)

Compare:

Akane:
She mostly hangs out with the fam and goes on punching-spec missions as a punching person. 90% of her time is spent around us or training. Who is going to notice dramatic improvement?


Even then, I don't think anyone at all is going to question "Akane punches so much harder" and not be convinced by "Yeah, see Jiraiya didn't let me give my not-in-the-clan GF all of the good Gōketsu shit." or "Well, shes been training with Tsunade", because Akane is already half-Jonin. The observable delta is just much smaller.

Hazou:

We don't really train anything noticeable to an outside observer until hitting comically high levels of Resolve and Deceit anyway.

If in ~2 years of time things proceed according to plan and the results are good, then I think clueing Keiko in at that time is a good idea. The entire point of clamming up about this is so that by the time this leaks and people finally converge on "Shadow Clone + Walahisa + Resolve = god time, put in microwave for a couple years" then it'll be too late for them to do anything about it.
 
Alright, I think we need to talk about Keiko and FOOM. At this moment she is 50XP away from having access, and we need to make the decision whether or not to bring her in the know.

I'm inclined towards YES, bring her in, since she's still obligated towards keeping our clan secrets even from the Nara (I don't see a situation where this would run into conflict), and I doubt Ami would want to pressure her sister on clan secrets given their relationship.

But that's just me. What do you all think?
I am super strongly against telling her. She is a huge OPSEC risk.
 
We should investigate whether Noburi can transfer Naruto's chakra into other ninja.

edit: I'm a bit worried Yuno is thinking. It's been months since she came. She might think that Leaf doesn't care about Isan, and I don't know how she would react to that.
 
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I'm not at all sure this would be a good idea to do in the short to mid term for a variety of reasons.

Chiefly, its not like Shikamaru *and* Ami at the very least won't be able to put two and two together very shortly if we do this? If Keiko is continuously visiting Noburi for chakra water and making ludicrous gains to outside observers, then they are going to wonder whats going on. Keiko exists in an environment that isn't really under our direct observation, and this opens up a whole other vector for infosec problems (Keiko goes on missions, the Pangolins might notice something, Keiko interacts with the Nara, etc.)

Compare:

Akane:
She mostly hangs out with the fam and goes on punching-spec missions as a punching person. 90% of her time is spent around us or training. Who is going to notice dramatic improvement?


Even then, I don't think anyone at all is going to question "Akane punches so much harder" and not be convinced by "Yeah, see Jiraiya didn't let me give my not-in-the-clan GF all of the good Gōketsu shit." or "Well, shes been training with Tsunade", because Akane is already half-Jonin. The observable delta is just much smaller.

Hazou:

We don't really train anything noticeable to an outside observer until hitting comically high levels of Resolve and Deceit anyway.

If in ~2 years of time things proceed according to plan and the results are good, then I think clueing Keiko in at that time is a good idea. The entire point of clamming up about this is so that by the time this leaks and people finally converge on "Shadow Clone + Walahisa + Resolve = god time, put in microwave for a couple years" then it'll be too late for them to do anything about it.
So I would tend to disagree that Ami and Shikamaru would be able to figure it out that easily, because of how long it's going to be before Keiko shows signs of FOOM since she learned SC (on 2/26). Right now Keiko can't make more than 2 clones a day without losing on the Resolve check, and she already has enough chakra to make those two clones. She'd need to raise her Resolve to 29 before needing the extra CP to make 5 clones (4 is her current limit), which is gonna take at least another month. Combine that with the fact that she still isn't at FOOM distance, plus the fact that it's already mid-July...the distance between Keiko learning SC and needing to get chakra water from Noburi is going to be closer to a half-year.

And keep in mind that Keiko is still leveling Resolve at this point, she isn't leveling RW or something noticeable (otherwise the argument for Hazou falls flat). I'm not too familiar with the plan for her, but at a glance she would need Resolve 47 before she has to level another 30s skill for pyramid balancing. At that point she's gonna need to level Alertness or her bloodline or some sum of other skills, but this is (IMO) over a year away.

In that time, it seems reasonable that we could lay the groundwork for some Gouketsu "training" that would appear to take much longer to an outside observer for the gains. Surely it's at least worth thinking anout?
 
Depends on ninja culture. Sounds plausible that they wouldn't care if we keep a copy.

If we don't keep a copy though, we still have the decrypted notes though so we can always undecrypt it again.
 
In that time, it seems reasonable that we could lay the groundwork for some Gouketsu "training" that would appear to take much longer to an outside observer for the gains. Surely it's at least worth thinking anout?
Well, it is worth thinking about, sure. I'm not sure its worth doing, is the thing.

I don't object at all to us giving a recommendation a la "I respect your incredible and respectably-sized bastion of willpower. May I suggest you consider prioritizing it in your training because of unexplained Hazō reasons? When have my training plans ever failed you btw?" so that she is ready to go when we're ready to go / we have our own pile of god-candidates half-baled already, for sure. This minimizes lag on her part after maximizing opsec for us.

I do think that having her over to actually do shadow clone training is a bit of a non-starter for a long while in any case, at least because of the logistics issues? We haven't even worked out how we're going to be doing this secretly, anyway [1] nor have we really taken steps to prepare for it. Likewise, Noburi and Hazou should be pretty busy themselves for a while. We need the koi stuff figured out too.

[1] I'm inclined to do an underground bunker of some sort. We could probably construct one in a week's worth of time, right?
 
edit: I'm a bit worried Yuno is thinking. It's been months since she came. She might think that Leaf doesn't care about Isan, and I don't know how she would react to that.

I'm always down to read about/interact with Yuno more. I think that she, much like Ami, is one of the best characters in the quest. That said, we're a clan head who might become her clan head. And since Isan's culture is bound in traditions and formalities, I don't think Hazou will ever be able to become very informal with her... but that doesn't mean that we can't be friends with her anyway!


Dear Jashin, no! But... I'd be willing to trade jutsu/seals for it. Haru's our only lightning-aligned ninja right now, but the jutsu sounds very, very useful. Still... Naruto's still not sure about Hazou, even if his disdain was shaken. Probably best to hold off on talking to him too much while we do more things for the Leaf that prove our goodwill and loyalty.
 
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I don't object at all to us giving a recommendation a la "I respect your incredible and respectably-sized bastion of willpower. May I suggest you consider prioritizing it in your training because of unexplained Hazō reasons? When have my training plans ever failed you btw?" so that she is ready to go when we're ready to go / we have our own pile of god-candidates half-baled already, for sure. This minimizes lag on her part after maximizing opsec for us.
Though @faflec an addendum to this is that I wouldn't mind something like:

Keiko drops a shadow clone or two (pr three or...) off early in the morning. We refill her. The Keiko's go meditate with Mari in a designated meditation room for a few hours or otherwise train Resolve with her.

That should do the trick for a good while.
 
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