- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
we allready sold all of J's seal notes in the competetion. So we'd be selling them twice
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
I have doubt the Pangolins would be cool with us trading those to another village.
Other things to consider are normal trade deals we could offer. We do have a significant amount of influence over the Merchant Council. I'm sure that Mist's fishemen would be eager to maybe sell a bunch of fresh fish that could be transported to Leaf via storage scrolls created by the Goketsu, for instance.
- Location
- Italy
Why Monkey Armies Are Good For us
AKA Asuma-Senpai, notice us
Yesterday i proposed the "Summoning Army Contest Proposal", but for various reasons (Including a need of that irritating thing called "Sleep") i could not answer the sensible critique to said proposal, so let's do this.AKA Asuma-Senpai, notice us
The proposal itself, in his most basic steps that needs to be refined, follow these steps.
- Talk to Mari about the Summoning Army Contest Proposal, asking her input for advantages and risks
- Maybe include Keiko and Noburi in it?
- Advantages:
- Noburi becomes a Strategic Resource
- More safe
- Help to obtain Koi
- More political power
- Hazou establish himself as S-rank ideas machine yet again
- More security from Akatsuki incident
- More political power
- If framed as Contest Contribution, another step to the Dog Scroll
- Makes Goketsu more difficult to just execute
- Massive amount of trust given to Asuma, good start to mend the relationship
- It give us an even better in to own Yasuji forever, if Asuma helps us.
- Noburi becomes a Strategic Resource
- Risks:
- Possible Damage to FOOM OPSEC
- Massive amount of trust given to Asuma
- If leaks, we become even more priority target
- How Noburi feel about that?
- Unknowns?
- Asuma have could already found out
- Will it work or there is something you didn't consider?
So let's see some of the constructive criticism made against the plan:
It Damages FOOM OPSEC:
Fair, technically the knowledge that Noburi can do something with infinite Chakra brings logically to SC FOOM. This is a problem and something we should talk with Mari before hand, but this said i don't consider the risks so big because FOOM is protected by an onion of OPSEC and "Noburi can use it's infinite Chakra" it's just the most basic, something that with enough time people could and possibly will reach by themselves. It's a secret in the same sense "Skywalker can be used to bombard people" is a secret, something that will be found out sooner or later. FOOM stronger defense is and always three things:
1)Clone Sickness exist and it's dangerous: Using Noburi for FOOM crashes into the brick wall of Clone Sickness and any answer reached will be "It's extremely dangerous", i already noted this in a previous post
2)Our assumption that every can become S-rank/Elite Jonin with enough effort: We believe so because we come from an XP based view, but Asuma answer to FOOM would be "People can reach their potential faster, but it really isn't that useful: Genin and chunin can't use it, and Jonin are already at their peak". Let's remember that for all his being Asuma, Asuma believe clanless are inherently inferior to Clan-nin. Hazou believes he and his friend have in it them to reach S-rank with FOOM
3)The fact that people don't min-max their lives: FOOM means dedicating from 100% to 1400% of your life to constant training. It's not something people inherently think about, because it's so far into the "What the hell is wrong with you". A simple example would be feeling tired but never losing energy, and therefore deciding to run around the globe for five years non-stop to be the best runner.
This said, it is a risk and we should talk about it with Mari.
It not really useful
By itself it is not. It requires planning, a good position, some time and a summoner with enough goodwill to summon half of his clan from the 7th path and so on, it's true. But we're not offering him the finished product, but an idea, a proof of concept. It doesn't really need to work right now, it just need to be possible with his help. Now the question becomes "What if Asuma don't believe it is useful"? Well, in that case the answer would be "Why"? Leaf has barely what? 10 Jonin? Orochimaru is almost a rouge agent. Tsunade cannot be in Leaf forever. It remains Naruto, that cannot leave the village as the only S-ranker that can protect him, but that means no S-ranker that can go on mission.
A S-rank defensive technique in a village with so few Jonin like leaf, is useful in my opinion, the question its' only if it will work.
It gives away a good trick
It does give away part of a good trick, this is true. On the other hand, we're not telling him(Hazou still did not think about it IIRC) about 7th fedex using Chakra water(Another OCP that people won't naturally think about) Shadow Clone Battery(OCP). So the Summoning Army remains a static temporary defense, not the mobile army of destruction that remains Goketsu secret.
Therefore,here it is a plan. As always, input on how to improve the plan is appreciated.
[X] Action Plan: Summons Everywhere
Wordcount:290
- Let's reconvene this morning.
- You did show up in the middle of night and if Jiraiya wasn't an outlier, he probably isn't getting enough sleep as it is.
- You'll have a proposal on how to deal with the Yasuji situation
- If he's not sleepy anymore, then you just need some time on how to tackle the Yasuji situation.
- Mari,Keiko,Noburi full OPSEC,be careful in your wording, meeting ASAP:
- New idea: Summoning Army(Noburi+Koi+Respected Summoner: Half/An entire Clan army as temporary Konoha defensive force). Is it possible? Should we offer it now?
- Advantages:
- Noburi becomes a Strategic Resource
- More safe
- Help in obtaining Koi and barrels
- More political power
- Hazou establish himself as S-rank ideas machine yet again
- More security from Akatsuki incident
- More political power
- If framed as Contest Contribution, another step to the Dog Scroll
- Makes Goketsu more difficult to just execute
- Massive amount of trust given to Asuma, good start to mend the relationship
- It give us an even better in to own Yasuji forever,especially if Asuma helps us.
- Noburi becomes a Strategic Resource
- Risks:
- Possible Damage to FOOM OPSEC
- Massive amount of trust given to Asuma
- If it leaks, we become even bigger priority target
- How Noburi feel about that?
- New idea: Summoning Army(Noburi+Koi+Respected Summoner: Half/An entire Clan army as temporary Konoha defensive force). Is it possible? Should we offer it now?
- If(and only if) the risks are considered acceptable, present the idea to Asuma, cooperate with the team on the how.
- Asuma(Check with Mari on what to say):
- What avenue does he want Goketsu to follow?
- Personally you feel a relationship with him could be useful long term to Leaf in various ways(Political influence in Mist,information, jutsu, Mist/Leaf alliance)
- Ami is an an example.
- You await orders: What to do, how to do it, what limits you have in offering and asking.
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I was more meaning the dogs and the toads. Will edit that in to be clearer
- Location
- Liverpool
Oh? I'm curious and cautiously optimistic about the Akane conversation part. Care to share?
See, my mind immediately went to Shikamaru, if only because we're on a bit better terms with him.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I'd argue that there's a difference between sharing Jiriaya's stuff with the Leaf and sharing it with Mist, but I get your point. Still, we should probably bounce the idea off of Team Uplift first, to get their advice and feelings about the idea. He was their family, too and we'd be treating Jiriaya's legacy as a pawn to be shared with the world.
Huh, I hadn't thought of that. Now that you mention it, I don't think I've seen any summon-techniques used by a non-summoner or someone related to a non-summoner. Maybe all summons are secretive/possessive of their techniques? Maybe the Pangolins are the exception to the "no one but the summoner can learn our techniques" rather than the rule? Or maybe only family-oriented Summoning Clans would allow their techniques to spread to the Summoner's clan?
My worry is that this'll put pressure on Noburi to... have a lot of children, to be polite. There's already some amount of pressure on his shoulders to found the Vampiric Dew in the Leaf --and in the Goketsu --but if we make Noburi a wartime resource due to his bloodline? Well... That makes it pretty tempting for the Tower to pull a Danzo and dehumanize him. We should have a Top Secret, Full OPSEC Protocols, Meeting about this before we even think about it outside of the clan compound.
I've already mentioned my jumbled mess of conflicting feelings on Hazou's romance arc. I think that the best thing we could do right now is launch Hazou at opportunities talk his feelings out with people he trusts, and allow the QMs to show their opinions through that.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This is just talking to Asuma and seeing what he would allow us to sell. We won't be committed to it yet just seeing if it would keep the boss man from getting upset
We don't possess any of their techniques at this time, and can't exactly guarantee them in negotiations.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
yes because we are just getting permission to trade things right now not actually negotating a deal with Yasuji. If Asuma says no to any of these we just know not to waste time on trying to get them
- Location
- USA
Apologies, I have trouble keeping track of OPSEC, but are we allowed to acknowledge to Mist we know about the koi or the barrel planned obsolescence?
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
In addition to critiques given on discord, I've realized another one: Asuma needs to get the Monkeys on board with this. Getting enough summons to flesh out your combat portfolio is already a big task, I can't really imagine it would be cheap to hire a large fraction of a summon clan's firepower, even situationally (remember that as a defense force we don't get to decide when we need to use it, so the Monkeys would have to agree to let half of their firepower vanish to the Human Path without any notice).
In other words, while the idea is only possible with Noburi refills, it would only open the door to the shop where the goods are being sold. Put another way, we're selling access to a marketplace, and the value of that is the difference between the market price of the good and how valuable the good is to Asuma.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No matter how reasonable that would be in-universe, it won't happen because the SV mods would flip and I don't want to deal with another threadlock + "discussion".
- Location
- Liverpool
Pretty sure we're still going to try and get new techniques from summon clans anyway, and it isn't a waste. It just also isn't a thing we can guarantee, and also that "some techniques" are much more nebulous, since we don't even know what they are.
If the not-even-heir wants to negotiate on a thing that we have to take his word on even existing (at least officially, because Mari), that we now know he doesn't have the ability to promise right now, in a situation that would put Noburi at massive risk...
Maybe he'd be willing to let us see his barrel, as a gesture of good faith? Otherwise, just use him for info or promise whatever vague thing Asuma doesn't think is treasonous (after we ask him).
- Location
- Italy
I mean. There is reason Danzo is dead(at least publicy) in MfD: find out, when you dehumanize powerful kung-fu wizards, those powerful kung-fu wizards don't quite like that. This said, having more Wakahisa doesn't make the technique more powerful and if Sasuke isn't currently on child-making duties from Hiruzen orders, then Noburi won't. For various, among those:
1)Asuma believes in the Will of fire.He won't do it for the same reason he won't do a breeding program, even if it would be useful.
2)Forcing a Clan member to have children by the decree of the Tower is going make the Clan go apeshit
3) It's a giant "Hey, Noburi is a target to kill", to any spy in the EM
4) It's useless. If noburi dies, no children will make a difference for years, if he survives he'll make children on his own regardless
And the most important part, that Itachi showed pretty clearly: You do not piss off your own S-rankers, because when they decide you are the problem, you stop being a problem shortly. Now, Noburi is not an essie, but is someone with a summoning scroll and the possibility of summoning an army of Toads in the future, does Asuma wants a second Uchiha Massacre by stupid orders? Because that's how he gets another Uchiha massacre sooner or later.
Eh, already addressed
Also, respectfully, this to me seems like saying "Do you have any idea of the manpower to make Skywalker for an entire village and change the military doctrine?" it goes on a binary "It work perfectly and conquer everything forever/It's not worth offering" .
On top of that, Asuma is the best suited at the moment for this, the Monkey are currently at peace AFAIK, Asuma is loved by Enma that probably doesn't want Leaf to burn to the ground(By virtue of respecting Hiruzen), and this would be Asuma's problem to resolve, in the same way "Adapt Skywalkers for Leaf general use" was Jiraiya's problem.
If we wait for the perfect implementation before proposing something, we'll simply propose nothing.
EDIT: "At a moment notice" is how things work normally, Enma and Asuma can simply decide how to make this work, they don't need to follow standard summoning etiquette for no reason.
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Except not really addressed. You mention the problem but then walk back and paint the proposal as less ambitious than previously described before stepping back forward after the topic ends to reiterate the more ambitious framing. I feel like you're saying "Okay yes that's a major problem, so it would only be slightly valuable, but anyways let's move on, as you can see it's clearly very valuable."
I would also dispute the accusation that I'm decrying the viability of the idea in general because of a logistical issue. My actual objection was that since Asuma would have to pay the Monkeys themselves in order to set this up, the only value conferred to the Goketsu for making the scheme possible is the difference between utility gained and utility paid to the Monkeys.
With Skywalkers, the logistical issue was small (train sealmasters to make skywalkers) and the payout was tremendous, so the utility of unlocking them was also tremendous. With your plan, the price is huge ("Hey Enma what will it cost to have half your firepower on call for summoning at a moment's notice?[1]") and the payout is significantly less big than skywalkers, so the utility of unlocking them diminishes greatly.
This is more than a minor logistical speedbump, and my objection is more than a shortsighted whine about a speedbump ruining the whole plan. I legitimately think that there is minimal residual utility left for the Goketsu after Asuma is finished paying the Monkeys enough to enlist all their help, and I have not heard an answer to that, or an appropriate scaling back of estimation of utility.
[1] The point of this arrangement, from what I've heard you depict, is so that if enemies attack Leaf Asuma can summon all the monkeys to help defend. Ninja combat is fast, so being generous that's like a 5 minute timeframe between 'attack sighted' and 'end of combat'. Thus all the monkeys that sign up have a maximum of five minutes warning, and since communication like that isn't instant most monkeys likely wouldn't know they were needed until they got summoned.
- Location
- NY
Contingent fees exist for this reason. This is giving Asuma the ability to pay Enma a arbitrary amount for saving Leaf from existential doom after said saving has occurred.
- Location
- Italy
I feel there is a miscommunication that come from a framing that i maybe should have not be used. When i said "Skywalker deal" i didn't mean "Literally on the same level of the skywalker as far as capabilities go", but "A deal of enough importance to change our current situation in a variety of social battlefields all at once" and well...that's on me. It was not on purpose, but that's not really an excuse.
This said, let's address the problem: utility isn't linear, for the Pangolin generally useful but not life saving gold was the Goketsu saving grace, so"The only value conferred to the Goketsu for making the scheme possible is the difference between utility gained and utility paid to the Monkeys" is extremely reductionist in my opinion.
What Leaf needs right now is security, not resources.On top of that:
1) Summoners/Clan relation aren't simple transactions, but a mix of relationship, transaction and trust, if Enma must decide between letting Leaf die and lending his clan help, thing aren't a simply a matter of paying or not
2)the Monkeys are just one way to do it, if unfeasible Leaf can simply make smaller deal with all of it's summoners.
3)We're not missing nin anymore, we're not doing a transaction with Asuma, we're more similar to a team of research that found out a extremely costly but powerful weapon. Regardless of it's utility, is still useful.
More importantly, one of the biggest reason i have to propose it is that the future utility of the deal could at any moment become absolutely zero, for example the second Asuma needs to summon something and the Koi pond is active. This secret is going out, sooner or later, IMHO. At this point is better create a vantage now instead of waiting and obtaining nothing
If fact, now what i'm thinking about it while writing this response, a way to resolve the problem would be using the 7th path alliance Ami version to pay the price of the Summoning army(At least in part), something that was already needed by virtue of wanting to use the Condor Scroll, under our proposal, of course.
EDIT: Also, this is why the plan consist of asking Mari and Keiko before offering it to Asuma, because if it's not worth it, they will probably tell us.
I mean, if an army big enough/strong enough to destroy Leaf start and end a fight in 5 minutes, without Leaf being on the lookout for it and nothing can give us time to even summon, then there is no amount of anythingthat it's going to save it regardless.
Aside from Nagato and his cheating eyes of cheating, of course.
Also, i give you my excuses. It was not my intention, but re-reading my post i misread your point and was far more dismissive than i should have been. Sorry.
Chakra water remains hidden. Only the Koi Pond+Summoner part is being revealed, if we want (And only if we want) we can sell it later for pretty much everything. My plan is selling the obvious things before other people arrive at the conclusion by themselves.
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And the summoner part is an S-rank trick and we should not sell it without a plan. It also has huge cost of keeping Noburi in village forever. So even if we just want to sell chakra water we need a solid plan
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Asuma already had Noburi do the summoner part though? The only new thing here is tying it to the Koi, and Asuma will realize that pretty quickly.
- Location
- Italy
The problem is that, well:
1) we cannot "sell" it anymore. We're Leaf-nin, the Hokage decide what is and is not secret, especially in this situation, meaning we cannot go to Asuma and say "We want X,Y and Z and we give you an S-rank trick that could save Leaf", because that's treason or something close to it.(Also now that the contest is happening, it will add value to the contest, instead of being a freebie because "Hokage is your ruler")
2)It is IMHO on a countdown, the leap of logic is shorter than any other innovation we made and it could easily be found out in the right circumstances
3)We are asking Mari and Keiko for optimization, instead of telling him straight away
4) Our biggest problem is dying by Grandmaster F, if we can protect ourselves with this move, then it's just a matter of FOOMing until we are swimming in S-rank tricks.
5)Noburi simply won't used in high-risk mission, and that is a good thing considering he cannot FOOM as of now. Also it won't work until the Koi are active and enough to help with Summoning, and at that point we'll be FOOMing, so rules become less rules and more suggestions.
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
With respect to this point in particular, I think that clan secrets may be more sacrosanct than you think.
The formation of Leaf was an act of compromise. Each clan in the Land of Fire was an independent kingdom, surviving because of secrets built up over generations, and while peace with other Fire clans was workable under Hashirama and Madara's guiding hands, giving up their secrets would be unthinkable. So Leaf was formed with the compromise that the sanctity of clan secrets are absolute. For all that the Hokage claims absolute dictatorial power I expect every Hokage knows that the rights of the position end where clan secrets begin.
We're less than a century past that, and that arrangement is far from dissolved. If something is unambiguously a Goketsu clan secret, then in the eyes of all the other clans Asuma has no right to demand we relinquish it. If it's ambiguously a Goketsu clan secret, then things do get complicated.
It's hard to really define what a clan secret is, because you can't exactly ask the clans what all their secrets are and catalogue their qualities. I believe the idea is that theoretically anything that only that clan knows and refuses to share is a clan secret, but there are obvious exceptions like 'mission details' except when it comes to these other qualities and etc...
It's not easy to create a clear rule about what is or isn't a clan secret, but 'bloodline details' are up there as one of the most central examples of clan secrets. So, from this we can conclude that the clans would collectively agree that Asuma doesn't have the right to unilaterally demand or spread bloodline details, at least in the vast majority of cases.
As this applies to Noburi... well, part of his bloodline that isn't secret at all is that he can redistribute chakra. That's fair game, so if Asuma wanted to he could easily say 'Hey Noburi, I'm going to go on this mission and want to bring you along to refill my chakra so I can summon Enma and keep going' and it'd just be another Hokage-authorized mission like normal.
But things do get a little fuzzier when it comes to something like Wakahisa Koi and expanding the quantity of chakra Noburi can redistribute. We did tell Asuma about how the koi work, but it's not exactly public knowledge, and neither is it public knowledge that Noburi's ability to redistribute is unlimited like that. So it starts to tread into uncertain waters if Asuma wanted to order something like infinite chakra for summoning like that.
All told, I do think you're right that Asuma wouldn't have much trouble demanding it if he thought of it and decided it was important. I just typed this up to give what I understand of the greater picture about how the Hokage's authority applies to clan secrets.
- Location
- Potato land
[X] Action Plan: Family Matters
Word count: 493
Asuma
Word count: 493
Asuma
- Hazou is the Mizukage's nephew. He's not made any use of this fact, and has little love for his clan, but is willing to let Asuma do so, for the good of Leaf.
- In Asuma's view, would it help for Hazou to personally intercede on Ami's behalf?
- Would he permit Hazou to write to his mother? Personal matters only, and Hazou won't object to the contents being read.
- Hazou would like Asuma's permission to negotiate with Yasuji. Asuma would be informed of the progress and would get veto rights on the prospective deal.
- Only carry this out if Asuma approves the negotiation. Discuss with Mari the night before.
- Goal: Work towards an actual deal. We do want a lasting barrel for Noburi and the koi.
- Method: Be friendly and straightforward, but treat him seriously. You'd like to work with him to assemble an offer the Wakahisa would accept.
- Have breakfast together and then talk to him in private, in your office.
- Float the idea of selling Kagome's defensive coverings for Noburi's barrel.
- Hazou takes some time to think about Akane's suggestion of re-igniting their relationship.
- Akane didn't just break up with Hazou due to the agency issue. During that painful conversation, she also mentioned:
- The imbalance of power between herself and Hazou
- Wanting to be her own person, and not just an extension of Hazou's will
- Akane claimed Hazou has changed. But has he changed enough to invalidate these reasons? He's gained even more power over her since.
- Hazou rethinks what he knows about Akane, from the very beginning
- She's strong, bright, optimistic, and never falters. It was not always so, though, according to her.
- She yearns for purpose and dedicates herself to causes - Youth, her apprenticeship to Hazou, the team, Uplift, Leaf. She almost killed herself from not wanting to slow you down. Akane is desperately, unreasonably loyal.
- It's a bit sad, when put like that. As if she herself, and her own life, always matter less. When Hazou originally confessed his feelings, she responded by saying she wasn't good enough for him.
- How can she be so bright and strong, and yet value herself so little?
- If you're going to be together again, it needs to be as equals. Hazou needs to see Akane as a person with agency. But she also needs to see herself as valuable and worthy. Like with Keiko, agency is a two-way street.
- What was she going to say, back when you were leaving for the tournament finals? How did Akane become Tsunade's apprentice anyway? You should go ask Mari, somehow you have a bad feeling about this.
- Bring her some chocolate. She deserves it for dealing with the Itachi mess.
- Relay your thoughts about Akane, and ask for advice.
- Inquire about what happened while you were gone for the tournament.
- In her honest and brutal opinion, how much does the clan need the bargaining chip of Hazou's hand in marriage?
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