Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

DaystarEld · Feb 26, 2019

All this talk of beating up Shikamaru is super counterproductive. He's probably the best untapped source of value we have immediate and uncomplicated access to. Instead of waiting for Keiko's interactions with him to reach some stable state, we really should be trying to get him on board with Uplift ourselves, and if not that, try to better inform him of Keiko's personality and eccentricities (without revealing any of her personal secrets) so he can be a stabilizing and beneficial influence on her rather than a source of more drama/hardship.

Additionally, he knows the truth of Keiko's relationship with Tenten. And Tenten is another untapped resource in terms of helping Keiko. If anyone besides Mari can snap Keko out of her ever-growing spiral, it's her. Though she's her own box of confusion and potential complication.

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 26, 2019

Alright, changes integrated since people seem to be okay with them. Rephrased a few things to try and save wordcount (it's still too high, sadly) and to be a bit less hostile towards Shikamaru (and more 'protective brother'-y)

Inferno Vulpix said:
Reposting the plan once again, if anyone has anything to say about it let me know.

Word Count: 364
[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.

Tell Pandaa to give the following message to Keiko:

We know you don't want to talk right now, but there's probably going to be new Ami developments and one way or the other we don't want to leave you out when they happen.

Find Shikamaru:

Explain to him the general circumstances behind Keiko's emotional state now, but avoid specifics.

Tell him that if he doesn't make up for his mistake then we'll make sure his life is interesting.

(Once the second Ami letter arrives)

Grab Noburi and show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:

Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier. Implication: Courier #2 wasn't compromised.

Letter #2 leaves us an opportunity to go along with the marriage (if it wasn't leaked), and signals that Ami'll drop it if we won't

Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she strongly prefers the former option. Testing Courier #1 was secondary.

If we run out of time, cover these later.

Talk to Noburi:

Get his full opinion on Keiko, Shikamaru, Ami, all of it.

We messed up not consulting him or Keiko, and we're sorry.

There was a reason that we haven't mentioned: we hoped there was a chance Ami and Keiko could reconcile.

Maybe Ami was trying to keep Keiko safe from the Mori. It's plausible, if Ami was worried that they'd get to Keiko.

We didn't want to give her false hope, though.

Collaborate with him about helping Keiko.

Do something calming and rote to relax a little, like making explosives.

Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi):

How long before we leave Mist?

Second meeting with Ami. Should it happen? If so:

Should we seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage?

Would require better OPSEC. A walk across the bay, then a picnic?

We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?

If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:

Decline the favour.

Set up the second meeting.

Place: "near" a random restaurant.

Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)

Clear this section with Jiraiya:

Watch today's matches.

If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.

faflec · Feb 26, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
Talk to Noburi:

Get his full opinion on Keiko, Shikamaru, Ami, all of it.

We messed up not consulting him or Keiko, and we're sorry.

There was a reason that we haven't mentioned: we hoped there was a chance Ami and Keiko could reconcile.

Maybe Ami was trying to keep Keiko safe from the Mori. It's plausible, if Ami was worried that they'd get to Keiko.

We didn't want to give her false hope, though.

Collaborate with him about helping Keiko.

This probably should be at the top of the plan, maybe after the Pandaa section but possibly even before (so literally the first thing we do). Noburi's not an idiot and probably has insight that we (as Hazou) don't have.

Inferno Vulpix said:
Grab Noburi and show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:

Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier. Implication: Courier #2 wasn't compromised.

Letter #2 leaves us an opportunity to go along with the marriage (if it wasn't leaked), and signals that Ami'll drop it if we won't

Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she strongly prefers the former option. Testing Courier #1 was secondary.

If we run out of time, cover these later.

IIRC Jiraiya had his own thoughts on the letter and our previous responses to it. I dunno how much metagaming we would be allowed to do but maybe we could integrate that into this response?

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 26, 2019

faflec said:
This probably should be at the top of the plan, maybe after the Pandaa section but possibly even before (so literally the first thing we do). Noburi's not an idiot and probably has insight that we (as Hazou) don't have.

That would put the convo before the second letter, which means Noburi and Hazou would be in letter 1 mode, but I think it's still reasonable.

faflec said:
IIRC Jiraiya had his own thoughts on the letter and our previous responses to it. I dunno how much metagaming we would be allowed to do but maybe we could integrate that into this response?

I'm inclined to leave that section more or less alone because of the metagaming concern, but there are a couple things I've been thinking of rephrasing for brevity and flow.

Changes integrated:

Inferno Vulpix said:
Reposting the plan once again, if anyone has anything to say about it let me know.

Word Count: 347
[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.

Tell Pandaa to give the following message to Keiko:

We know you don't want to talk right now, but there's probably going to be new Ami developments and one way or the other we don't want to leave you out when they happen.

Talk to Noburi:

Get his full opinion on Keiko, Shikamaru, Ami, all of it.

We messed up not consulting him or Keiko, and we're sorry.

There was a reason that we haven't mentioned: we hoped there was a chance Ami and Keiko could reconcile.

Maybe Ami was trying to keep Keiko safe from the Mori. It's plausible, if Ami was worried that they'd get to Keiko.

We didn't want to give her false hope, though.

Collaborate with him about helping Keiko.

Find Shikamaru:

Explain to him the general circumstances behind Keiko's emotional state now, but avoid specifics.

Tell him that if he doesn't make up for his mistake then we'll make sure his life is interesting.

(Once the second Ami letter arrives)

Grab Noburi and show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:

Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier, implying courier #2 wasn't compromised.

Letter #2 leaves us the choice to go along with the marriage or not.

Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she prefers the former option.

If we run out of time, cover these later.

Do something calming and rote to relax a little, like making explosives.

Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi):

How long before we leave Mist?

Second meeting with Ami. Should it happen? If so:

Should we seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage?

Would require better OPSEC. A walk across the bay, then a picnic?

We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?

If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:

Decline the favour.

Set up the second meeting.

Place: "near" a random restaurant.

Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)

Clear this section with Jiraiya:

Watch today's matches.

If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.

Kiba · Feb 26, 2019

Threatening someone just because they made an honest mistake is a bad idea.

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 26, 2019

Kiba said:
Threatening someone just because they made an honest mistake is a bad idea.

Velorien said:
"Tell her I'm sorry, and if she comes back, I'm sure we can work all this out."

"Also," Noburi said, "we'd love to help her with Finals preparations."

"And Nara is very sorry and promises he'll do anything he can to make it up to her," Hazō said.

"He does?" Noburi asked sceptically.

"He'll want to by the time I'm done with him," Hazō promised grimly. "Nobody gets to inadvertently traumatise my stepsister but me."

Hazou's already committed to some kind of retribution against Shikamaru. I figure the way Hazou goes about it in my plan is probably the best way to do that. I mean, all we threaten is to make his life interesting, which he'll obviously hate but doesn't have any material losses attached, and we go through the trouble of explaining the context beforehand so that he isn't guessing about what Keiko's so upset about beyond his actions.

As far as threats go, this is well on the 'protective sibling' side of things with a dash of Hazou-brand cooperation.

Roomba · Feb 26, 2019

DaystarEld said:
All this talk of beating up Shikamaru is super counterproductive. He's probably the best untapped source of value we have immediate and uncomplicated access to. Instead of waiting for Keiko's interactions with him to reach some stable state, we really should be trying to get him on board with Uplift ourselves, and if not that, try to better inform him of Keiko's personality and eccentricities (without revealing any of her personal secrets) so he can be a stabilizing and beneficial influence on her rather than a source of more drama/hardship.

Additionally, he knows the truth of Keiko's relationship with Tenten. And Tenten is another untapped resource in terms of helping Keiko. If anyone besides Mari can snap Keko out of her ever-growing spiral, it's her. Though she's her own box of confusion and potential complication.

I think that, rather than actually wanting to go punch Shikamaru, we're concerned that given Hazou's sentiment expressed at the end of the update, he's going to take matters into his own hands absent any direction. Which could go... poorly.

I somewhat question the wisdom of confronting Shikamaru right now in general. Given that he's just openly defied his father and other clan elders, only for the person he thought he was helping out to lash out at him and leave, he must not be feeling that good himself. If we go in all accusatory, it'll just end up as a confrontation and he won't listen to what we have to say, when he really should.

Are there any downsides to waiting for a few days on this? We could send him a message to the tune of "Keiko is fine, if rather upset at you. Let me know when you want to meet, and I'll explain what went wrong and how to avoid it in the future."

Oneiros · Feb 26, 2019

@Inferno Vulpix I strongly object to this

Inferno Vulpix said:
We messed up not consulting him or Keiko, and we're sorry.

Hazō did what he for very good reasons. Just because Kei dramatically overreacts is no reason to apologize. We desperately need to get Hazō to develop a backbone and constantly apologizing when he isn't at fault really hurts that goal

Edit: @Roomba I strongly agree with this

Roomba said:
Are there any downsides to waiting for a few days on this? We could send him a message to the tune of "Keiko is fine, if rather upset at you. Let me know when you want to meet, and I'll explain what went wrong and how to avoid it in the future."

Emstar · Feb 26, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
Hazou's already committed to some kind of retribution against Shikamaru. I figure the way Hazou goes about it in my plan is probably the best way to do that. I mean, all we threaten is to make his life interesting, which he'll obviously hate but doesn't have any material losses attached, and we go through the trouble of explaining the context beforehand so that he isn't guessing about what Keiko's so upset about beyond his actions.

As far as threats go, this is well on the 'protective sibling' side of things with a dash of Hazou-brand cooperation.

I would rather this be a casually droped joke-threat-promise than the plan seems to have it. He will take it seriously either way.

At the end maybe put:

throw him an olive branch: suggest regular weekly meetings working on social skills. Less 'troublesome' misunderstandings in the future...

Roomba · Feb 26, 2019

MMKII said:
throw him an olive branch: suggest regular weekly meetings working on social skills. Less 'troublesome' misunderstandings in the future...

Please no.

Emstar · Feb 26, 2019

Roomba said:
Please no.

It's not like they have to be done on screen.

Inferno Vulpix said:
We messed up not consulting him or Keiko, and we're sorry.

Change consulting to informing, maybe? Its not clear that we're not apologizing for checking this through with everyone before doing it, rather than just keeping them in the general loop.

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 26, 2019

Oneiros said:
@Inferno Vulpix I strongly object to this

Hazō did what he for very good reasons. Just because Kei dramatically overreacts is no reason to apologize. We desperately need to get Hazō to develop a backbone and constantly apologizing when he isn't at fault really hurts that goal

I might be amenable to removing Keiko from that line, but we do need to apologize to Noburi. It wasn't center stage when it got mentioned but Noburi is upset that we met Ami and didn't get his input, because he could've helped us be prepared. From Noburi's perspective, we decided not to get his help with a tricky situation and it went south and we didn't even give Noburi a chance to help. Given that we trust him to have a clear head for stuff like this, it's a pretty bad silent insult.

So, yeah, I'm having Hazou apologize to Noburi for not trusting him to help. I put Keiko in there too because even though I don't think we should have asked her for permission we could still have gotten her input and we chose not to.

MMKII said:
I would rather this be a casually droped joke-threat-promise than the plan seems to have it. He will take it seriously either way.

At the end maybe put:

throw him an olive branch: suggest regular weekly meetings working on social skills. Less 'troublesome' misunderstandings in the future...

I can try to make it a little more joking, but do remember that Hazou is upset at Shikamaru right now and we can't just wipe away his anger.

MMKII said:
Change consulting to informing, maybe? Its not clear that we're not apologizing for checking this through with everyone before doing it, rather than just keeping them in the general loop.

Perhaps 'getting your advice'?

e:

Roomba said:
Are there any downsides to waiting for a few days on this? We could send him a message to the tune of "Keiko is fine, if rather upset at you. Let me know when you want to meet, and I'll explain what went wrong and how to avoid it in the future."

Hmm, I could also do this too. Change the section to something like "Avoid Shikamaru, it'll be better to be calm when we confront him and he probably has enough on his plate already."?

Emstar · Feb 26, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
I might be amenable to removing Keiko from that line, but we do need to apologize to Noburi. It wasn't center stage when it got mentioned but Noburi is upset that we met Ami and didn't get his input, because he could've helped us be prepared. From Noburi's perspective, we decided not to get his help with a tricky situation and it went south and we didn't even give Noburi a chance to help. Given that we trust him to have a clear head for stuff like this, it's a pretty bad silent insult.

From Noburi'sperspective he's also a bit freaked out we were dealing with spooky jounin chick and didn't let him know.

I'm not sure he's upset we didn't ask for his help, so much as he is upset that theres a major unknown unknown introduced and we didn't let him know about it.

Inferno Vulpix said:
Perhaps 'getting your advice'?

How about "Keeping you in the general loop of a dangerous plot." ?

Anderkent · Feb 26, 2019

Roomba said:
Are there any downsides to waiting for a few days on this? We could send him a message to the tune of "Keiko is fine, if rather upset at you. Let me know when you want to meet, and I'll explain what went wrong and how to avoid it in the future."

"and we can talk about what went wrong" will probably go over better than "I'll explain your mistake"

We should just offer a conversation to Shikamaru for him to pick up when he wants to. TBH I was surprised he sent us away immediately, but perhaps he considers what happened too private.

Cariyaga · Feb 26, 2019

I want to apologize to Kei. For hurting her, even if not for what Hazou did. I'm not inclined to cut her slack for being a dick about things, but that's not all there is to this.

Emstar · Feb 26, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
Avoid Shikamaru, it'll be better to be calm when we confront him and he probably has enough on his plate already

Go for it

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 26, 2019

Cariyaga said:
I want to apologize to Kei. For hurting her, even if not for what Hazou did. I'm not inclined to cut her slack for being a dick about things, but that's not all there is to this.

Alas, Keiko is unavailable at the moment, so whether or not we should apologize to her again we can't do it now.

MMKII said:
Go for it

K, I'll make the changes.

Inferno Vulpix said:
Reposting the plan once again, if anyone has anything to say about it let me know.

Word Count: 336
[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.

Tell Pandaa to give the following message to Keiko:

We know you don't want to talk right now, but there's probably going to be new Ami developments and one way or the other we don't want to leave you out when they happen.

Talk to Noburi:

Get his full opinion on Keiko, Shikamaru, Ami, all of it.

We messed up not keeping you or Keiko in the loop, and we're sorry.

There was a reason that we haven't mentioned: we hoped there was a chance Ami and Keiko could reconcile.

Maybe Ami was trying to keep Keiko safe from the Mori. It's plausible, if Ami was worried that they'd get to Keiko.

We didn't want to give her false hope, though.

Collaborate with him about helping Keiko.

Avoid Shikamaru, it'll be better to be calm when we confront him and he probably has enough on his plate already.

(Once the second Ami letter arrives)

Grab Noburi and show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:

Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier, implying courier #2 wasn't compromised.

Letter #2 leaves us the choice to go along with the marriage or not.

Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she prefers the former option.

If we run out of time, cover these later.

Do something calming and rote to relax a little, like making explosives.

Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi):

How long before we leave Mist?

Second meeting with Ami. Should it happen? If so:

Should we seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage?

Would require better OPSEC. A walk across the bay, then a picnic?

We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?

If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:

Decline the favour.

Set up the second meeting.

Place: "near" a random restaurant.

Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)

Clear this section with Jiraiya:

Watch today's matches.

If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.

Cariyaga · Feb 26, 2019

FWIW I want to interact with Shikamaru.

Oneiros · Feb 26, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
might be amenable to removing Keiko from that line, but we do need to apologize to Noburi. It wasn't center stage when it got mentioned but Noburi is upset that we met Ami and didn't get his input, because he could've helped us be prepared. From Noburi's perspective, we decided not to get his help with a tricky situation and it went south and we didn't even give Noburi a chance to help. Given that we trust him to have a clear head for stuff like this, it's a pretty bad silent insult.

So, yeah, I'm having Hazou apologize to Noburi for not trusting him to help. I put Keiko in there too because even though I don't think we should have asked her for permission we could still have gotten her input and we chose not to.

I don't expect that I'll be able to convince you to not include the apology. I do want to take this opportunity to explain some of my viewpoint of why apologizing is a bad decision. For the large majority of time team uplift has known each other they where the only people they interacted with. On top of that every day presented a series of life or death decisions. Everyone's safety was literally tied to each other. Keeping everyone in the loop was incredibly important. However since we have been granted Leaf citizenships the situation has changed. Not only has our survival essentially been guaranteed but, there are actual new people to interact with. That in fact Hazō, Noburi and, Keiko do not have to share everything with each other. This is an opportunity for them to grow into there own selves. Instead of being a forced unit they are allowed to be individual people. This is a good thing. All 3 of them should be allowed to express there own agency . That means that sometimes they won't tell each other everything. I argue that this is a very good thing for everyone's mental health. Hazō shouldn't apologize for being an individual. Instead I would just suggest telling Noburi that he wants his advice going forward in this issue

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 26, 2019

On another note, I'm not too sure about the Pandaa section.

Velorien said:
"She said for me to go straight back," Pandā said, "but maybe I could take a message with me?"

"Sure," Hazō said. "Tell her we're sorry—"

"Ahem," Noburi said.

"Tell her I'm sorry, and if she comes back, I'm sure we can work all this out."

"Also," Noburi said, "we'd love to help her with Finals preparations."

"And Nara is very sorry and promises he'll do anything he can to make it up to her," Hazō said.

"He does?" Noburi asked sceptically.

"He'll want to by the time I'm done with him," Hazō promised grimly. "Nobody gets to inadvertently traumatise my stepsister but me."

It looks like Hazou's already given his message, so I'm not sure I can really give a full message like in my plan. Should I restructure it as an addition to the message we already gave Pandaa? Get rid of it entirely? I'm not sure.

Getting rid of that section also gets us back under wordcount, but I'm not going to base my decision off of that.

Emstar · Feb 26, 2019

While I agree with large portions of @Oneiros 's opinion on the apology stuff, I do think theres a bit of a difference between

Apologize for doing it at all, it was a mistake
Apologize for not asking for your help beforehand.
Apologize for not acquiring permission beforehand.
Apologize for how me doing thing makes you feel.
Apologize for me not keeping you in the loop in a dangerous situation.

I think we can sincerely apologize for not keeping them up to date on an ongoing situation without implying we were in the wrong to do the actual action or for not asking their permission.

@Velorien @OliWhail @eaglejarl

When's the closing ceremony?

eaglejarl said:
:> I had actually forgotten you called that in advance. The QMs had some discussion about how to run this; we all agreed that the pangolins were a hard counter to Shino's insects, but we were spoiled for choice as to how. This is what we ended up going with, and I'm perversely glad to see that it was called in advance.

Great minds think alike!

Oneiros · Feb 26, 2019

MMKII said:
I think we can sincerely apologize for not keeping them up to date on an ongoing situation without implying we were in the wrong to do the actual action or for not asking their permission.

I think it's better to just explain why we did what we did. While at the same time letting Noburi know that we are totally ok with him not telling us everything.

faflec · Feb 26, 2019

A thought: Why don't we crib from our previous plan which we used to handle the didn't-talk-to-Kagome-about-Hana situation?

Emstar · Feb 26, 2019

faflec said:
A thought: Why don't we crib from our previous plan which we used to handle the didn't-talk-to-Kagome-about-Hana situation?

I believe that was mostly resolved by

KAGOME: HEY DO YOU THINK I'M STUPID AND THAT MY OPINION DOESN'T MATTER?

HAZOU: What!? No!!! Of course I don't, I care about you!! I'm so sorry!

KAGOME: OKAY JUST CHECKING

VOICE'S IN HAZOU'S HEAD: praise Jashin for Kagome's straightforwardness

Lord Marshal · Feb 26, 2019

Oneiros said:
That in fact Hazō, Noburi and, Keiko do not have to share everything with each other. This is an opportunity for them to grow into there own selves. Instead of being a forced unit they are allowed to be individual people. This is a good thing. All 3 of them should be allowed to express there own agency .

While i concur with your sentiment, i would like to note that this was not a "personal experience".
This was an uplift operation again a Jounin/Possible S-Ranker.
It was not a "personal experience" that Hazou tried to find individuality, it was a "All hands on deck operation" that Hazou implemented on his own and could have been damaging for everyone.

Framing it as a "Well, Hazou need his agency" is at best only technically correct, especially when the other part of the operation is Keiko sister, someone that could have used the situation as a stress point to damage the team...something that actually happened.
At least asking for Rule Of Engagement to Keiko was, while not necessary, something polite to do.

And let's be real:
From an internal perspective,We know why Hazou hid the meeting, and sure as hell was not "Let's take a personal day to follow my heart".

If Noburi decided to fight Zabusa 1vs1 and decided to tell us nothing because he know better, everyone would have kicked his ass all the way to Konoha and back, just because we did it socially doesn't change the situation.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

The Shining One

The Shining One

The Shining One

Handsome Gentleperson

The Shining One

Handsome Gentleperson

The Shining One

The Shining One