- Location
- Europe
First you don't have perfect recall and now a lupchanz joke? Oh no....
(I think @faflec is compromised)
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
First you don't have perfect recall and now a lupchanz joke? Oh no....
(I think @faflec is compromised)
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
{{}{]([}([ )]}{{}({[}}){)}{}]{] []]{}]][}}[}{]{]{]] ?
Something something angels can't speak Aramaic.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Ǫh̵g͏̧̕ ̶́͠p̨͢͏n̕ą̸ ͏g̀uŗl͞ ern͏͜q̀͘͝ gr̕k͞ǵ̨ ̷̴͢r̀a͝p͟ȩ̸lc͘g̡͟r͘q͟ ̛͟óļ̀ Guv̡́e͏gr̷͘r̢͠a ̀G̨͘j̕vȩ͠ỳ͢v̛͢͞a̡͡t ̶͠O͏y͘b͞͞ff̷͞b̸͠z̶̡f̨̀ ̴́͜n͝͠aq ͢͠g̶͟͜uŕ͡͡ M̀nyt̶͝b ͏z̵̢r̴z̡͢͠r̸͢͡gv̶̨̨p̸̕͜ ̢̢͝x̵v̴̶y̴͞y̕ ̴̨̛nt̵rag͘?
- Location
- Italy
This is a logistical problem, dependent on the current circumstance and therefore not really relevant to the spirit of the plan, aside from the fact that the plan needs to be adjusted to the current situation.
This said, it's also a circular problem.
Keiko is out of reach, so we shouldn't try to bring her closer to us because she's out of reach.
"It could not work" it's something that be said of any plan.
So what we should analyze is, will this help us? What are our alternatives?
Personally speaking more than "helpful" this plan is "Something we need to do", because relationships don't heal on their own.
Keiko won't wake up and say "Oh well, everything is fine", Hazou won't wake up and say "Now i clearly know what i did wrong".
and frankly put, if we can't talk of our failing and what should be done to improve with Noburi and Keiko, this itself would be very strong indicator that shit is really bad, and our relationship with them needs to be addressed ASAP.
Jiraiya is not needed for the summit, even if his presence would be greatly appreciated, the important people are Keiko and Noburi, at the moment.
In Leaf we can simply call another meeting if needed, with everyone that we consider part of our familiy(Kagome,Mari,Akane and so on), or we can simply do the meeting the second we return to leaf, nothing forces us to it in Mist or now.
Yes, of course it won't solve everything.
These are relationship, not a logical problem.
But we all know that ignoring the problem and closing our eyes won't help either.
The point is not to "Fix" the situation, because that is impossible.
The point is to honestly communicate our understanding of the situation and our feeling in it.
Will it help in that moment? Maybe not.
Is it a step we need to take? Yes, unless you expect Hazou to develop telepathy.
And no.
Hazou said "Sorry", without really understanding why.
Calling that an apology it's insulting to all parties involved.
On top of this i would like to add that exactly because of Shikamaru actions, our effort as,you know, family is even more needed.
Honest conversation is not a panacea.
It's difficult, it's painful, and it does not give assurance.
Problem is, it's also the only actual way to develop and resolve social conflict in intimate relationships
Frankly put.
We don't get to plan the solution out of this.
It doesn't work like that, because we are not in front of a problem, we are in front of a person, a person we are in a deep, important relationship with(Brother and Sister)
If we do not talk, the only way this situation "resolve" itself is if Keiko do double the work and understand us and talk to us, doing the same thing in reverse.
Unless we plan to ignore all of this and simply go on without addressing the core problem.
Even if the meeting does not resolve the situation, it would at least give Keiko the clear fact that we understand the gravity and what actually happened, and we're sorry for it.
And this is something that would help in the long term.
I would like to note that "Wait and Hope" it's not a solution.
At best it's a "Let's wait for the situation be more calm, and then act", but fact is, i'm not saying we need to talk this very update(Albeit the second date with Ami makes everything more complicated).
My point is not " we need to to this ASAP."
There are physical and logistical problems, and i understand this perfectly.
My point is, we need to do this.
Maybe not today.
Maybe not even tomorrow,
If we're lucky we can even wait until we are in leaf without all of this exploding in our face, again.
But this is something that needs to happen, because we can't kick the can indefinitely, because sooner or later something is going to kick said metaphorical can in our face, and the more we procrastinate, the more Hazou problems in social relationship are not addressed.
This is not for Keiko.
This is for Hazou too.
The last time it was Akane, for the same exact problem.
This time is Keiko.
What will be next time?
And yes, i'm fairly confident in saying that the only way to repair a relationship is talking,at least if we want to do this properly.
There are NO other ways, this isn't something we can logic our way out.
The best we could do is hope the GM pull a "DIRECT CONTROL" and do the talking for us, like it happened in the lost chapter, because they are writing about people, and sooner or later they are going to talk even without our input.
But i wouldn't call that a "solution".
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Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
Really like it. Especially the bit where the apology/explanation about Ami ties into asking Noburi about his family.
Drasky
Dude
What do you think the players were trying to do with Hazou "Apology" Croissant for the past two years? If you say that they have been doing it wrong for so long let's hear out what your correct action plan is.
I'm at the point of just giving up on Keiko so if you actually have something concrete as a plan just post it.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I fundamentally disagree with your assumption that Hazō had any failing. I will campaign incredibly hard against this.
When people try to emotionally manipulate you should not allow them to walk all over you. In this instance Kei needs to learn that Hazō has a backbone and won't roll over because she believes the world revolves around her
- Location
- Italy
Well...It's not that thread is "wrong"
Frankly put, i'm think a consensus was...not reached?
Some people thinks it's all Keiko fault, other think it's Hazou fault, but not because he did something bad, but because Keiko feel bad, and some other just wanted to apologize to resolve the problem and get on with hit, because they already included the apology in rational calculus of profit and loss.
It's not that you're doing it wrong and more the thread is conflicted?
My hypothesis is not something mine, but more something i developed reading this thread and the many interesting opinions before my posts.
Hell, my plan is almost surely in need of polishing or could be wrong...i just hope that by posting i will help the thread, if by simply launching a different alternative that will let the discussion grow and be more productive.
Regardless, my plan is pretty simple:
Analyze where we fucked up.
Analyze why we fucked up.
Wait some time to let Keiko calm down if needed.
Talk between family in a honest and sensible way.
???(Could be a deathbattle between us a very angry pangolin)
Profit.
Reform the 3-way team that resolves problems together and kick ass,this time on a social level, murdering someone with the occasional summoned angry Pangolin.
More than one people can be wrong, you know?
In fact, aside from extreme relationships, almost the fault lies in both parties, albeit in different ways.
No one here is contesting that Keiko anger for Hazo/Ami meeting is in part manipulation.
Problem is....
She know!She explicitly told us that she is in the wrong for that and she has no right to do so!
This is not what we are going to deal with, because it was never important, as Keiko noted this problem and explicitly told us that yes, she is wrong on that.
Behind a curtain of self-loathing, yes, but she did so.
What do you expect her do to? Stop feeling irrational emotion that she explicitly cannot control?
regardless Keiko being manipulatory and Hazou behaving well are two different things.
Not one is going to say "Keiko you were right in feeling angry because i met Ami".
We are going to deal with Hazou lying and manipulating Keiko as a stranger, not Keiko anger.
Keiko is still in the wrong on that, and we ARE NOT GOING TO CAPITULATE TO MAKE HER FEEL BETTER.
In short, mixing apples and oranges.
No one is going to say her manipulation was justified.
Does that help calm your objection?Or are you fundamentally against trying to help Keiko in virtue of her behaviour?
I can explain what i believe is the problem, and why it's unrelated to the emotional manipulation you talk about, if think it would help(I did so in previous post, but i understand searching for a post in this thread can get really irritating)
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Your post is very large and covers a large number of points, and I don't want to spend the effort addressing all of them one by one. I'll just say this:
The situation right now is that Keiko is in emotional turmoil, not that she misunderstands anything important about the situation (she did get a line-by-line recital of the meeting). The reason why I advocate an, as you put it, 'wait and hope' plan is because emotions fade over time, and if we give it a little time Keiko's emotions will fade until she's willing to be around us again.
Talk will still be needed then, probably, but there's no reason for it to be a big Goketsu therapy summit instead of a private one-on-one conversation with her where she gets to express her remaining emotional distress at us and we can be honest with her directly. Making a bigger production of the attempt to communicate does not make the communication better, and including more people in a matter between Keiko and Hazou should only complicate matters rather than help. I can't help but see the summit idea as a knee-jerk reaction to Keiko being sad, under the idea that if we do a BIG THING in the right direction then that's going to be the right answer.
P.S. It's hard to engage directly with a giant wall of text, perhaps consider investing in making your posts more concise? As it stands I'm not inclined to respond to another post like your last one because you just make it way too hard to meaningfully converse with you.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Once again I disagree with your basic premise. Hazō did not lie or manipulate Kei in any way. There was no promise broken. Hazō can be there for Kei. He can help her to understand how to overcome her problematic behavior. What he shouldn't do is apologize or admit fault. If he did he would just be feeding Kei's toxic world view
It's unimportant to make Kei feel better. It's important to make her better. Allowing her to continue to manipulate Hazō doesn't help with that
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Anyways, I finally have time so here's my proposed first draft of edits:
These aren't integrated into the plan itself yet, since it's a big change and I'd like feedback first.
Not too pleased with the Keiko letter, but I'm not sure what else to put there. Thoughts?
Expanded Noburi into his own section, he's upset at us for multiple reasons so I figure we should address that if we can.
I decided against the Ami investigation because we've got enough going on right now that it's more likely to get in the way than to provide anything meaningful.
e: I looked at the update and the Pandaa message might be more fixed than I thought. Also, I forgot the Shikamaru section.
- Tell Pandaa to give the following message to Keiko:
- We know you don't want to talk right now, but there's probably going to be new Ami developments and one way or the other we don't want to leave you out when they happen.
- Find Shikamaru:
- Explain to him the general circumstances behind Keiko's emotional state now, but avoid specifics.
- Tell him that he messed up and if he doesn't make it right then we'll make sure his life is interesting.
- (Once the second Ami letter arrives)
- Grab Noburi and show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:
- Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier. Implication: Courier #2 wasn't compromised.
- Letter #2 leaves us an opportunity to go along with the marriage (if it wasn't leaked), and signals that Ami'll drop it if we won't
- Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she strongly prefers the former option. Testing Courier #1 was secondary.
- If we run out of time, cover these later.
- Tell Keiko and Noburi about the second letter. Pre-empt their concerns, this one's good news.
- Let them voice their opinions.
- Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on the potential second meeting.
- Ask permission to potentially talk about her with Ami.
- Finally get Noburi's full opinion on the situation.
- Talk to Noburi:
- Get his full opinion on Keiko, Shikamaru, Ami, all of it.
- Express that we messed up not consulting him or Keiko, and we're sorry.
- Collaborate with him about helping Keiko.
- Do something calming and rote to relax a little, like making explosives.
- Help Keiko plan for her upcoming fight.
- Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi and Keiko; high-OPSEC conditions):
- How long before we leave Mist?
- Second meeting with Ami. Should it happen? If so:
- Should we seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage?
- Would require better OPSEC. A walk across the bay, then a picnic?
- We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?
- If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:
- Decline the favour.
- Set up the second meeting.
- Place: "near" a random restaurant.
- Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)
- Clear this section with Jiraiya:
- Watch today's matches.
- Verify Ami's story (if time permits).
- Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.
- Persuade Chouji to visit a few restaurants, inquire about their history. (We're paying.) Points of interest:
- Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Experimental Cuisine.
- Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.
- If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.
Not too pleased with the Keiko letter, but I'm not sure what else to put there. Thoughts?
Expanded Noburi into his own section, he's upset at us for multiple reasons so I figure we should address that if we can.
I decided against the Ami investigation because we've got enough going on right now that it's more likely to get in the way than to provide anything meaningful.
e: I looked at the update and the Pandaa message might be more fixed than I thought. Also, I forgot the Shikamaru section.
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Seconding this. If we don't write something down, there is a very good chance that Hazou will do something a shounen anime protagonist would do in such a situation. Shounen anime protagonists do not, as a rule, handle such situations well.
- Location
- Italy
Fair enough, and i concur on your point, on being more concise, so i'll do my best to write my answer accordingly.
I understand and find reasonable waiting a certain amount of time to let Keiko absorb and digest the current situation, albeit i would like to note that our involvement with Ami will probably make everything more complicated.
I object on the "meeting" being the "BIG THING", as our problem are not this singular situation, but a general behaviour on Hazou part that was already called out by multiple people and influence both Keiko and Noburi.
This is why i would prefer a meeting, instead of a one-on-one conversation. In short, i disagree in Noburi being irrelevant to the matter at hand, as he's both family and a person influenced by Hazou behaviour, on top of being a trusted comrade.
Personally speaking i approve.
I would say tone down the fury directed to Shikamaru...but IC Hazou is pretty angry, so....
it's cool.
Hazou explicitly hid the meeting from Kei, he went out of his way to be sure Keiko didn't know.
It's a lie by omission, and saying otherwise is just rule-lawyering.
Hazou treated Keiko as an obstacle and simply tried to work around her is a fact, something Hazou himself admitted, if not explicitly.
Hazou implemented an uplift strategy without consulting the strategist of the team, this too is a fact.
In a team, you don't get to discard the others opinion when it's convenient to you, especially a team that was based on this to survive.
The promise broken was an implicit one of trust between Hazou,Noburi and Keiko of working together as peers.
Hazou tried to ignore this because he felt he knew better than his teammates, because what he did was explicitly an Uplift operation, not a personal one.
What i said are fact.
Hazou did lie by omission.
Hazou did try to ignore the will of his teammates
Hazou did implement an Uplift strategy without seeking their opinion when he all the possibility to do so.
These are action, and actions have meaning.
It show a lack of trust in his peer, and a general contempt for their opinion and the idea that they are obstacle to work around when there is the possibility they would disagree with him.
Is this true? Maybe not.
But this is the image that Hazou gave Noburi and Keiko.
Then again, i feel this discussion is redundant.
After reading Inferno Vulpix answer i too feel letting some time pass a sensible choice, so talking about a choice we are not going to do yet seems wasteful.
I suggest seeing what Noburi and the other think of the situation and Hazou behaviour, and then if new information arrives, we will re-analyze the situation.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Incidentally, @Inferno Vulpix : I just wanted to say one more time that I'm sorry I didn't manage to address your plan. It's been hanging fire for a long time and you've been a really good sport about it. Thanks for that.
- Location
- Why would this be required?
I commented more on the craziness of the whole meeting but at the time I did think Hazo did a great job considering Ami is a young jonin who makes Jiraiya's head hurt. Sure it seems like she was going relatively easy on him but even then.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Point of order: she only got a recital of Hazō's half of the dialogue.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Did Hazou not explain her (Ami's) side as best he could remember, for context?
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes, but it's important to clarify the limits. Imagine yourself spending an hour in a meeting like Ami's. Now imagine you were recording yourself speaking on a dictophone throughout. It would undeniably help you remember what was going on, but by how much?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Ah, yeah. Just making sure.
- Location
- Liverpool
@Inferno Vulpix I dig the plan and the modifications. Pending word count (and probably even if we don't have words to spare), my big recommendation is to flush out the Noburi conversation more with Roomba's bit. Bro deserves it.
- Location
- CA
I think talking to Noburi is a good time to be honest about a bit of the hivemind motivation behind not telling Keiko--namely, that while he wanted to help her, he also wanted to avoid dealing with her reaction, because her intimidation show after the letter arrived wasn't exactly unprecedented. It's not like saying so is going to negatively impact Noburi's opinion of Hazou--do you think he doesn't realize that's part of it?
Hazou doesn't really know how to help her, and aside from "talk to her, and maybe it'll work," neither do we. But the struck-out update suggests that Hazou is dealing with a lot of frustration regarding this particular intractable problem (as opposed to all of the other giant, systemic intractable problems he's also dealing with), and giving him a chance to vent a bit would help his mental state... And a less frustrated Hazou is more likely to get plans done.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
I don't think putting the whole thing in there is in the cards (unless my voters agree to take such a large wordcount hit), but I can try to hit more of its points.
- Tell Pandaa to give the following message to Keiko:
- We know you don't want to talk right now, but there's probably going to be new Ami developments and one way or the other we don't want to leave you out when they happen.
- Find Shikamaru:
- Explain to him the general circumstances behind Keiko's emotional state now, but avoid specifics.
- Tell him that he messed up and if he doesn't make it right then we'll make sure his life is interesting.
- (Once the second Ami letter arrives)
- Grab Noburi and show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:
- Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier. Implication: Courier #2 wasn't compromised.
- Letter #2 leaves us an opportunity to go along with the marriage (if it wasn't leaked), and signals that Ami'll drop it if we won't
- Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she strongly prefers the former option. Testing Courier #1 was secondary.
- If we run out of time, cover these later.
- Tell Keiko and Noburi about the second letter. Pre-empt their concerns, this one's good news.
- Let them voice their opinions.
- Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on the potential second meeting.
- Ask permission to potentially talk about her with Ami.
- Finally get Noburi's full opinion on the situation.
- Talk to Noburi:
- Get his full opinion on Keiko, Shikamaru, Ami, all of it.
- Express that we messed up not consulting him or Keiko, and we're sorry.
- We had another reason, that we didn't express to Keiko: we hoped there was a chance Ami and Keiko could reconcile.
- We don't know for sure, but maybe Ami was trying to keep Keiko safe from the Mori. It's plausible, if Ami was worried that they'd hurt Keiko.
- We didn't want to give her false hope, though.
- Collaborate with him about helping Keiko.
- Do something calming and rote to relax a little, like making explosives.
- Help Keiko plan for her upcoming fight.
- Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi and Keiko; high-OPSEC conditions):
- How long before we leave Mist?
- Second meeting with Ami. Should it happen? If so:
- Should we seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage?
- Would require better OPSEC. A walk across the bay, then a picnic?
- We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?
- If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:
- Decline the favour.
- Set up the second meeting.
- Place: "near" a random restaurant.
- Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)
- Clear this section with Jiraiya:
- Watch today's matches.
- Verify Ami's story (if time permits).
- Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.
- Persuade Chouji to visit a few restaurants, inquire about their history. (We're paying.) Points of interest:
- Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Experimental Cuisine.
- Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.
- If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
:> I had actually forgotten you called that in advance. The QMs had some discussion about how to run this; we all agreed that the pangolins were a hard counter to Shino's insects, but we were spoiled for choice as to how. This is what we ended up going with, and I'm perversely glad to see that it was called in advance.
Fixed, thanks.
And all the thank yous to the tireless @Squiddlebuddy , who has been patiently catching my mistakes for at least six years now, having started with some of the first chapters of The Two Year Emperor.
EDIT: I forgot to say that the following has been edited into the latest chapter:
The plan that won for this update will continue by default. You are, as usual, free to vote changes to the plan, or even a new plan, based on new information. If you do, please ensure that the new plan respects the timeline; it should not act on information that Hazō didn't have until later, which in particular includes acting on the fact of Keiko's victory in the finals before she actually won. Voting will close February 27 at 12pm London time.
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