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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Cariyaga said:
I have no doubt that chakra beasts are adaptive enough for that.
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I don't know, do chakra beasts need food and water? If they do, salt lake beds/mines might not be the best places for them. If they're fine without, then sure.


Shadowwarp said:
Well then we'll know marrying her was the right choice
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Part of me would like to figure out something we can say that another hive mind would instantly recognize as only coming from another hive mind and then make Hazou say it. I'm not sure if we should, but Ami does seem like a hive mind candidate.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
Part of me would like to figure out something we can say that another hive mind would instantly recognize as only coming from another hive mind and then make Hazou say it. I'm not sure if we should, but Ami does seem like a hive mind candidate.
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"By the way, what kind of medium are you using when transferring directives down there, into this sad impoverished world? Mine's textual, they're structured as lists of actions.

"... Oh, I'm asking how you prefer to note down your thoughts on difficult decisions. Sorry for the convoluted language, I've been reading Nara's books. Wait, you do do that? You strike me as that kind of player."
 
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It amuses me that you guys seem under the impression that the QMs aren't just as capable of chaos as we are. They, too, have participated in tabletop gaming.
 
Cariyaga said:
It amuses me that you guys seem under the impression that the QMs aren't just as capable of chaos as we are. They, too, have participated in tabletop gaming.
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Pfft, who doesn't get that? Ami is just the most recent example in a long line of absurdities that make up team uplift's bizzare adventures throughout the MFD narutoverse.
 
Cariyaga said:
So, before the next update in which things to terribly again, further driving a wedge between Hazou and Keiko that we decide is obviously her fault and therefore we have no reason to do anything to resolve it...
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How would you resolve it, assuming you had the power to vote in whatever you wanted? I know it can be frustrating to read that it's all Keiko's fault, but I think the primary reason we're not doing anything in the short-term is that we don't know what it is that we should do.
 
Roomba said:
How would you resolve it, assuming you had the power to vote in whatever you wanted? I know it can be frustrating to read that it's all Keiko's fault, but I think the primary reason we're not doing anything in the short-term is that we don't know what it is that we should do.
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Well, if I had ultimate voting power I'd have asked her first, but ignoring that... I'd immediately cease contact with Ami, pay attention (in order to learn what happened between them) and then talk to Shikamaru and explain what he did wrong, and probably talk to Keiko about the whole ordeal sooner than later. Explain that this wasn't part of any grander plot (and she really thinks too much of him there); he wanted to feel her out for Jiraiya, yes, but primarily wanted to find out if there was anything that could be done for their strained relations. He wasn't going to talk about that without her permission, of course. He just didn't want to leave her sad about that when there was something he could at least try to do. Not telling her about the meeting to start with was an oversight and he was wrong to not have done so.
 
Cariyaga said:
Well, if I had ultimate voting power I'd have asked her first, but ignoring that... I'd immediately cease contact with Ami, pay attention (in order to learn what happened between them) and then talk to Shikamaru and explain what he did wrong, and probably talk to Keiko about the whole ordeal sooner than later. Explain that this wasn't part of any grander plot (and she really thinks too much of him there); he wanted to feel her out for Jiraiya, yes, but primarily wanted to find out if there was anything that could be done for their strained relations. He wasn't going to talk about that without her permission, of course. He just didn't want to leave her sad about that when there was something he could at least try to do. Not telling her about the meeting to start with was an oversight and he was wrong to not have done so.
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We said a decent amount of this when Keiko was interrogating us, did we not?

Whats the primary goal here? Signal to Keiko that we are sorry? Fix underlying relationship problems?
 
Cariyaga said:
Well, if I had ultimate voting power I'd have asked her first, but ignoring that... I'd immediately cease contact with Ami, pay attention (in order to learn what happened between them) and then talk to Shikamaru and explain what he did wrong, and probably talk to Keiko about the whole ordeal sooner than later. Explain that this wasn't part of any grander plot (and she really thinks too much of him there); he wanted to feel her out for Jiraiya, yes, but primarily wanted to find out if there was anything that could be done for their strained relations. He wasn't going to talk about that without her permission, of course. He just didn't want to leave her sad about that when there was something he could at least try to do. Not telling her about the meeting to start with was an oversight and he was wrong to not have done so.
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I have a second idea on the apology front.

Essentially, the long term problem is that she doesn't trust us, and is sort of correct in that. So don't ask for trust. Offer leverage.

Better Left Unsaid Part 2 made me categorize a couple things a little differently. Jiraiya is trying to collect leverage over Hazou, because a life time of Ninja work has left him empty and unable to trust. At the moment, he doesn't have much leverage that won't also sink him personally, just his overwhelming power. And the thing with Kagome. I suspect future leverage will work in a similar way, and be times where we didn't do right by family.

What we can offer Keiko, is that every time we notice Jiraiya collecting a piece of leverage over us, we reveal it to her as well. She has already proven that she can kill us if she wants to. Now she just needs a weapon she can actually use.

Full disclosure, I also want to do this because I think it will actually limit the Hivemind's actions in the future.
 
MMKII said:
Would you mind expanding on that? What do you mean, precisely?
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Sure thing.

I think that it will actually limit the Hivemind's actions, in the sense that I think we will be less likely to take actions that hurt Keiko if we think she can get back at us.

I'm not sure we will hurt Keiko less if all we do is feel bad for a couple updates, and pinky swear to be better. We want too many things too strongly for that to work out. Eventually, something will come up that we think is awesome, or necessary, and we will go ahead and do it. The exact costs won't be certain, and we will convince ourselves that the cost is worth it, or that the cost won't have to be paid, or that it will be smaller than we think. We won't limit ourselves very much, and do whatever it is we wanted to do anyway.

And, if worse comes to worst, and everything plays out the way we convinced ourselves it wouldn't, she just proved she is not willing to kill us. She doesn't have much leverage on us beyond that.

But if there is a specific, tangible, threat to us on the line, I think we can respond to that correctly, and limit our actions to limit the damage we cause.
 
Now, Immortal Lurker, we're not intending to marry her. And what is marriage if not an exchange of intense vulnerabilities and agreeance that killing each other would be too much trouble?
 
Immortal Lurker said:
Sure thing.

I think that it will actually limit the Hivemind's actions, in the sense that I think we will be less likely to take actions that hurt Keiko if we think she can get back at us.

I'm not sure we will hurt Keiko less if all we do is feel bad for a couple updates, and pinky swear to be better. We want too many things too strongly for that to work out. Eventually, something will come up that we think is awesome, or necessary, and we will go ahead and do it. The exact costs won't be certain, and we will convince ourselves that the cost is worth it, or that the cost won't have to be paid, or that it will be smaller than we think. We won't limit ourselves very much, and do whatever it is we wanted to do anyway.

And, if worse comes to worst, and everything plays out the way we convinced ourselves it wouldn't, she just proved she is not willing to kill us. She doesn't have much leverage on us beyond that.

But if there is a specific, tangible, threat to us on the line, I think we can respond to that correctly, and limit our actions to limit the damage we cause.
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I don't think this is a game theory problem that you can fix by granting a party more leverage. If Keiko wants to hurt Hazou, she has a wide range of options available before extremes like telling Kagome about Hazou's leak to Jiraiya come into play. It's not a question of what she is able, but rather of what she is willing to do.
 
Roomba said:
I don't think this is a game theory problem that you can fix by granting a party more leverage. If Keiko wants to hurt Hazou, she has a wide range of options available before extremes like telling Kagome about Hazou's leak to Jiraiya come into play. It's not a question of what she is able, but rather of what she is willing to do.
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I think you underestimate the gesture of trust it is, somewhat.
 
Cariyaga said:
I think you underestimate the gesture of trust it is, somewhat.
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Hypothetical-most-unhelpful-Kei-possible: Hazou doesn't actually expect this to give me any influence over him because he correctly recognises that I understand that revealing this will negatively impact the clan in a way I cannot afford, and so does not expect me to ever use it against him. Unfortunately for Hazou, he has failed to predict just how annoying this pretense of vulnerability would be to me, and I find myself in a position of desiring to go through with the betrayal regardless of the long-term impact it will have on my life, just to spite him for it.
 
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Cariyaga said:
I think you underestimate the gesture of trust it is, somewhat.
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Given that most outstanding leverage is "That time we were careless and fucked over someone else we care about." I am heavily skeptical this will work as intended.

If we want to give Keiko blackmail we can just give her a two page writeup for each girl in Leaf/Mist/??? we know, detailing their faults and flaws as perceived by us and an analysis of how compatible we are as romantic partners. Make it as earnest and honest as possible, and as a corrollary it will be a fairly damning pile of blackmail.
 
Immortal Lurker said:
Better Left Unsaid Part 2 made me categorize a couple things a little differently. Jiraiya is trying to collect leverage over Hazou, because a life time of Ninja work has left him empty and unable to trust. At the moment, he doesn't have much leverage that won't also sink him personally, just his overwhelming power. And the thing with Kagome. I suspect future leverage will work in a similar way, and be times where we didn't do right by family.
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Reminder that for all its virtues, Better Left Unsaid is entirely non-canon.
 
I'm really confused about why we're talking about giving Keiko blackmail material over us.

Also, why isn't this something to be dealt with once we're back in Konoha and aren't under quite as much stress as now?
 
firestorm440 said:
I'm really confused about why we're talking about giving Keiko blackmail material over us.

Also, why isn't this something to be dealt with once we're back in Konoha and aren't under quite as much stress as now?
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Do we really want to leave Keiko to make another poor decision like ditching the Goketsu in favor of the Mori?
 
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