Fair enough. Her name was just the first thing that came to mind about things we could calligraphy.

Maybe 'Mori' instead?
I worry that this sort of thing might have very strong but subtle implications actually, now that I think about it.

If we give her "Happiness" for example, well, a strange boy shows up and literally hands her "Happiness". What does that say about the boy and how he perceives this exchange? What is he trying to communicate here? It can go a lot of different ways if we aren't careful.
 
To elaborate: what if we have Hazou carve something small? It will be crude since he is no expert in wood carving but it could symbolize that a) he put some thought and work into it, b) that he is aware he is not a seasoned player at the political stage yet but that he is willing to give it a try and c) it is something he made completely by himself, not at all dependent on other factions, i.e. we come here to negotiate on our behalf and no one else's.

I like this idea a lot, assuming we have enough time to prepare it. We could even present it to her with a slightly cheeky "I know I'm but a beginner at the fine art of woodcrafting, but I hope you can nonetheless find some use for this small token of good will".

But then, what do we want to carve? I can think of many incredibly memey options, but not many actually good ones. A cat would be funny and full of hidden meaning, but would also set a tone for the meeting that I'm not sure we want. What is a good symbol for Hazou's humanitarian ideology?
 
I worry that this sort of thing might have very strong but subtle implications actually, now that I think about it.

If we give her "Happiness" for example, well, a strange boy shows up and literally hands her "Happiness". What does that say about the boy and how he perceives this exchange? What is he trying to communicate here? It can go a lot of different ways if we aren't careful.
When I was doing a homestay in Japan, the daughter of the family I was with took me to a print club machine to get a photo of us together. Turns out those things have a zillion customisation options you can select before printing, and she thought we should both pick some. Of course I had no idea what any of the buttons meant (they didn't have clearly-marked labels or anything). As a result, I ended up giving this girl l I'd known for two weeks a photo of us with words to the effect of "eternal love" written under it.
 
When I was doing a homestay in Japan, the daughter of the family I was with took me to a print club machine to get a photo of us together. Turns out those things have a zillion customisation options you can select before printing, and she thought we should both pick some. Of course I had no idea what any of the buttons meant (they didn't have clearly-marked labels or anything). As a result, I ended up giving this girl l I'd known for two weeks a photo of us with words to the effect of "eternal love" written under it.
Both past and present you have my condolences.

Did they find it humorous at least?
 
How about trying to do something symbolizing our two countries? Maybe do steam in calligraphy?

I had a similar idea regarding wearing clothing with both Mist and Leaf accents, but ultimately thought it too adventurous for the first meeting. Truth is, we don't know enough about the alliance negotiations to effectively help here, and sending mixed signals can be harmful.

For now, let this be a meeting between Ami and Hazou as individuals, talking about abstract political philosophies, and maybe, very carefully, about family. I'm reluctant to add more complexity to an already uncertain situation.
 
Digging through the thread ( I am become the @faflec) I have found these two proto-plan thingies that I think are decently well thought out.

Let's rip these apart and see what's appropriate?
Is it time for bad decisions? Yes it is.

[] Proto Plan: The A(m)I Box Experiment
  • Schedule an appointment to speak to Ami.
    • Consult with Jiraiya beforehand so as to minimise the possibility of Bad Things.
    • Do not attempt any manipulations. They will not work.
    • Assume that Ami is fully capable of manipulating you any way she wants. Do not make any agreements with her, and if prompted to do so, respond that you will consider matters and return with an answer before you leave Mist. DO NOT buckle under pressure here. DO NOT be swayed to give a more minor agreement as a concession. NO EXCEPTIONS.
    • Nothing Ami says is evidence that should be immediately updated upon. Merely filed away for later examination. There is no way for you to distinguish between Ami saying something and believing it and Ami saying something to manipulate you. Treat her as a potentially-hostile clone of Mari with Kei's intellect.
    • Constantly remind yourself that the woman in front of you plays at the same level as (or even higher than) Jiraiya.
  • The agenda for the meeting:
    • We both know that Kei loves her more than anything else in the world, and Ami is fully capable of controlling her reactions beyond Kei's ability to see through. Therefore Ami wanted to distance herself from Kei, either upon hearing that Kei had not intended to return to Mist, or since before then.
    • If the former, it is possible that this was a spur of the moment reaction that she now regrets, and if the latter, it is possible that this decision was made for Kei's benefit because associating with Ami would be somehow deleterious to her. In either case, it is possible that Ami would prefer to mend bridges with Kei if some obstacle were overcome.
    • If such an obstacle were to exist, is there anything Ami suspects that Hazou may be in a position to do to help her remove it?
      • If it does not exist, and Ami simply no longer wishes to be a sister to Kei, then she may feel free to request some other activity that serves her purposes. Whatever the case, this request will of course be scrutinised by Jiraiya, and may yet be denied, but there is no guarantee that he will be able to catch self-serving requests, and thus making one has some positive utility for self-serving!Ami. The fact that self-serving!Ami would still make a request allows sisterly!Ami to make a request without exposing herself to those who she wishes to disguise herself as self-serving!Ami to. In this manner, either hypothetical version of Ami, sisterly or self-serving, should still seek to make a request, so as to best optimise for their respective preferred outcomes.
    • Is there anything else that Ami would like to discuss?

For future use, as before I'm in India and won't be updating this. Feel free to copy into future plans.

[x] Ami Plan: Cover the Basics

Italics are commentary, not part of the plan. Things in "quotes" are meant as inspiration rather than things that must be said verbatim

Goals: make casual contact with Ami, don't poke into her relationship with Keiko directly, discuss policy, establish side channels, prevent OPSEC issues.

Contingencies:
  • OPSEC!! Keep it.
  • Do not discuss Jiraiya or other members of our family, except where specifically mentioned in the plan.
  • Keep any statements limited to your personal history and beliefs, suitably cleaned, of course. Unless otherwise specified.
  • Keep your precommitments.
  • Flirt awkwardly. (Yes, specifically awkwardly. Like you're trying to practice on someone you have no chance with, so that you can do it better for someone else who you do.)
    • I want to emphasize how Hazou is "da cute widdle genin" here. Which frankly, we are.
  • Dispel regularly.
Plan:
  • Ask if we could speak in private. (Either directly or via subtext) trust her to take appropriate actions.
    • For instance: If we meet over tea, we can keep to small talk, and ask Ami if she wants to take a quiet walk together. Then we let her lead us somewhere and find a private space.
    • She's enough of a social there is no way she won't pick up what we actually want to do
    • A lot of what I want to do is better done in private, not because we are discussing anything dangerous, but to create an environment that is more comfortable to Hazou.
    • Sadly we don't have an option other than to trust her judgement. We're not going to talk about anything we're not fine with everyone knowing but if Ami's goals align with ours she's at most going to tell her faction.
  • Start with explanation of CCnJ & set up precommitments against manipulation under CCnJ.
    • No contracts, no commitments.
    • Just friendly sharing of information.
    • Either party can end conversation at any time.
    • Either party can ask to drop a topic at any time or refuse to answer a question, and each will respect that.
    • Hazou will leave if you try to force any issue.
    • We want to show, obliquely, that we care about Keiko, which is why we explain CCnJ.
    • We also want to set ground rules for our own safety. I don't expect direct violence. Ami will probably humor us.
  • We are open to addional contact via letters/indirect message.
    • Give Ami a deniable back channel to Keiko and Jiraiya.
    • Set up basic communication channels for future cooperation.
    • We want indirect messages so that we can mull them over with J and K before responding.
  • Discuss impending crash of population.
    • We have weak evidence if state actors killing civilians of other nations, in order to minimize future ninja population.
      • Do not discuss what evidence you have, just state that you have it.
    • Have hypothesis that this plus other social dynamics will cause civilizational collapse.
      • Mention that Keiko helped generate and find some supporting evidence for this hypothesis.
      • Do not talk about what the evidence is.
    • State that I don't want that to happen.
      • Speak only for yourself, refuse to comment on the beliefs of others.
    • Ask if there is anything relevant Ami wants to share.
    • This is the first really important handshake, we protect ourselves by only stating conclusion and epistemic status.
    • Even if Ami has nothing to add, we trade small amounts of information on our personal goals (not those of Jiraiya or Leaf), for a potential connection to a major Ally.
  • Talk about till-n-fills, explain basic idea, current implementation, suggest use in Mist.
    • Discuss seeming value of walls, and ninja used for infrastructure and production tasks.
    • Ask Ami's thoughts about the idea, potential improvements, and possible long term outcomes.
    • Yup, we're sticking to this stuff, it's something we want spread around. Plus it's basically public knowledge anyway.
    • If Ami engages with us in goodwill, we get some potentially useful criticism, if not we've lost nothing.
  • Ask about Ryugamine.
    • He's been an important figure in Mist.
    • After leaving Hazou found that, even if ryugamine's goals were opaque, Hazou's gained some appreciation for the way ryugamine approaches them .
    • What was it like being his apprentice? What's he like?
    • We don't have much to work with on Ryugamine (at least Hazou doesn't in character), but I can absolutely see Hazou mildly admiring him, esp. if the hive mind nudges him in that direction.
    • This is mostly for us to signal interest in him and hint at or suspicions they might work together.
    • It puts Ami in an interesting place with whether or not she nudges him our direction. We gain a lot if Ryugamine becomes slightly better disposed to us or leaf.
  • Discuss goals of uplift.
    • How we find the constant race between ninja for superiority a waste of resources that could be used for the betterment of people's lives.
    • All people, including civilians.
    • How something that is trivial to a ninja call be so impactful to a civilian.
      • Noburi's experiences as a doctor. Hazou's experiences with civilians.
      • Steer clear of specifics.
    • How, if we could cooperate, we could bring Leaf's current standard of living to everyone.
  • Leave Ami significant room to guide the discussion to her topics of interest, though try to get the above stuff in.
 
I mean, before we start talking about the window dressing, I just want to get a few things clarified:

1. What, exactly, are we aiming to get out of Ami?
2. What, exactly, are we willing to give in return?
 
What is a good symbol for Hazou's humanitarian ideology?

A portrait of himself and/or a toolbox.

Real suggestion: A necklace with a wooden pendant that he carved himself?

My mind immediately went to a handshake (alliance) or one hand pulling up another (uplift)

Some samples:


(without the hearts)


 
When I was doing a homestay in Japan, the daughter of the family I was with took me to a print club machine to get a photo of us together. Turns out those things have a zillion customisation options you can select before printing, and she thought we should both pick some. Of course I had no idea what any of the buttons meant (they didn't have clearly-marked labels or anything). As a result, I ended up giving this girl l I'd known for two weeks a photo of us with words to the effect of "eternal love" written under it.

This explains a lot. I had a feeling you liked writing romcom scenarios and who wouldn't if their actual real life was based on one? :V

I hope I can be forgiven if I extend my theory to EJ's real life as well now.
 
A portrait of himself and/or a toolbox.

Real suggestion: A necklace with a wooden pendant that he carved himself?

My mind immediately went to a handshake (alliance) or one hand pulling up another (uplift)

Some samples:


(without the hearts)



Those look really good. I'm not against it.

I mean, before we start talking about the window dressing, I just want to get a few things clarified:

1. What, exactly, are we aiming to get out of Ami?
2. What, exactly, are we willing to give in return?
I think the general purpose of this is something along the lines of:
Figure out some more about her. Signal willingness to work with others so long as our goals are not orthogonal. Be slightly cute and precocious, as any Hazou is bound to act when dealing with an older girl. Throw the ball in her court for a bit and hope that she does something other than stonewall us and/or fish for nfo and/or kill/maim us.
 
I am getting the impression that a lot of posters are not appreciating just how serious and dangerous this meeting is. Any single word or action here could very well be recorded by history as a "the Archduke's driver took a wrong turn" moment.





There are mainly two reasons why I would prefer for Hazou not to mention it - aside from Ami likely already being aware of it:

1) IC he is still very much attached to his mother and might be conflicted about offering "her spot" to a stranger

2) What impression does this make to Ami if we are willing to throw our mother under the bus to get Ami to come to Leaf? This appears a lot more mercenary than we want to convey ourselves, especially since we know that Ami considers family important.

Does she? We know that she adores Keiko because of the type of person she specifically is and what she has done for her, but she was perfectly happy to manipulate and screw over her entire clan to prevent them from reassimilating Keiko's loyalties. The only other named character we know her to have a link to is known as the utterly ruthless "angel without mercy".



Distinctly not ignoring his feelings. Venting to someone about the huge amount of drama caused by his mom is totally understandable for a 14 year old. The entire point of this is Hazō isn't making any kind of offer. Ami will do all the leg work

While venting about the subject to a walking extrapolation engine who is already blackmailing his father and head of state is in character for Hazou, that's something which absolutely everybody has been trying to fix.

J is playing an extraordinarily delicate game with a frienemy moderate reformist Mizukage, the belligerent hardliner faction of Mist, all of the various self-interested clans in both Mist and Leaf, the leaders of the three other most powerful states on the planet, and a wildcard unknown faction who seems to have surprised everybody by just waltzing in and inviting themselves to sit down at the table to start blackmailing the most powerful people on the planet with Kurosawa skill and Kage-level talent.

Hana attacked and crippled the Hokage's fiance on her first night on the job, then physically assaulted and battered her, after which J, in cold blood, after ensuring that even his own ANBU wouldn't know about it, violated her diplomatic status by beating her to a pulp and threatening to disfigure her for life in a ploy to extract concessions from the Mizukage who very much will not want this information to get out either.

Again, J didn't even trust his personal ANBU bodyguards with knowing about this. Just a suspicion that something happened would be enough to reorient the entire board in unpredictable ways, and that's without anybody taking that suspicion and extrapolating more from it. Moris are superhumanly good at extrapolating.


This is not a little thing. Even breathing the slightest shadow of a hint of the possibility of this would be summary-execution-level high treason. J would be less likely to kill Hazou if he just started telling Ami everything he knows about shadow clones. There are at least three different major world powers which would have an incentive to send an S-Class to murder Hazou just to keep him from mentioning it again. More would be incentivized to do it simply to reduce the number of potential surprises in the Great Game being conducted right now again.



Can't tell if this is supposed to be a joke or if you seriously imagined Hazou randomly vibrating on his chair while talking to Ami and then went "Yes, this is fine."?

No, I imagine him picking it up, saying "sorry, I have to take this", and politely excusing himself to talk to his hand about salt prices for a few minutes.



For me the point isn't to get Ami as ambassador. It's to get her to put pressure on Ren which will let Jiraiya get another angle to extract concessions from the Mizukage no matter who gets the position

Remember that Ren is the closest thing J has to an ally in these omnilateral negotiations. She has more in common with his goals than several actual Leaf clans. Depending on what the actual objectives of the completely unknown third Mist faction are they could very well just use this information to get Ren 'retired' and replace her with a warmongering hardliner eugenicist. That's if it doesn't leak to any of the other major or minor nations who would be happy to do it just to sabotage the nascent Leaf-Mist alliance which is scaring everybody.

There is a reason that Hazou promised J that he would stay away from anything remotely sensitive or political. Hazou doesn't even have a seat at the table, and he'd be utterly over his head if he did. He is not in any position to try to be a player in this game. If something is not already ubiquitously common knowledge in both Mist and Leaf Hazou should not be talking about it to the Kage-level superhuman with totally unknown allegiances and objectives.



Anyways, gift: go or no go?

I think something minor would be best, given that Hazou and Ami haven't met before and this isn't an official meeting.

I'm thinking a small handful of explosives, because explosives are our thing so it's in-character for us and while it's not all that valuable or unique it has undertones that we care about Ami's safety and well-being.

Handing out explosive seals to foreign ninja without tower approval is also something we have been explicitly told is literally treason.

-and then there's the potential of the detail-oriented walking supercomputer noticing that Hazou's seals are all exactly identical and inferring something both the Mist and Leaf royal clans consider a major secret.

-or, worse, not inferring that and instead going down the "well, Leaf has printing presses and suddenly has so many seals that they can afford to throw them around like candy" route which leads to panic and a preemptive dogpile on Leaf before it can conquer everybody else with its world-changing technological breakthrough.



We noticed there's some valuable/rare lumber around in Mist at the moment, right?

We could give her some wood arts and crafts?
To elaborate: what if we have Hazou carve something small? It will be crude since he is no expert in wood carving but it could symbolize that a) he put some thought and work into it, b) that he is aware he is not a seasoned player at the political stage yet but that he is willing to give it a try and c) it is something he made completely by himself, not at all dependent on other factions, i.e. we come here to negotiate on our behalf and no one else's.

Look, if we're just going to ignore the unknowable potential misinterpretations of the subtext of a personalized or non-standard gift anyway, Hazou already has one (two) he isn't using anymore and we might as well maximize the number of people likely to kill him when they find out.

Play her Tears of Red and give her the ruby pin.



Presumably we would be able to identify and find a good quality calligraphy brush.

I'm cool with doing some calligraphy, but handing her her actual name comes off a bit creepy in my book. Like, we haven't actually met this person yet.

Fine, if you're going to do calligraphy he also already knows something much more suitable than her name: ^_^
 
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Guys, I would seriously start planning the Ami update now. There's still a lot you can get figured out without knowing the outcome/consequences of the match, and it seems like a bad idea to wait for @eaglejarl's update before getting started.
Does anyone know if we have enough knowledge of flower meanings that we could make a message bouquet? If not, does anyone think it's a good idea to ask Ino?
What I'd like to do is make a bouquet for Ami with a secret message for her. Either something about Keiko, saying we want what's best for her and want to know if Ami does too, or something about an alliance.
Maybe flowers that say: Sibling love, Protection, Question?

The benefits are that we'd get to pass a message to Ami, and it would give both of us a reason to play the whole star crossed lovers thing and pretend it's an actual date, which I believe would please Velorien and the Ami shippers immensely.
Plus we have an obvious reason for hiding the flowers from anyone else. We're a young boy who's embarrassed to be seen giving flowers to a girl. Go one level down, and people realize that it's Keiko's sister, which will make them think we just don't want Keiko to find out that we're dating her estranged sister.
 
A portrait of himself and/or a toolbox.

Real suggestion: A necklace with a wooden pendant that he carved himself?

My mind immediately went to a handshake (alliance) or one hand pulling up another (uplift)

Some samples:


(without the hearts)




Like this? @Velorien can Hazou realistically carve something similar in the time he has left before the date?

Everyone else: Does this fit your idea of an official uplift symbol?
 
Handing out explosive seals to foreign ninja without tower approval is also something we have been explicitly told is literally treason.

-and then there's the potential of the detail-oriented walking supercomputer noticing that Hazou's seals are all exactly identical and inferring something both the Mist and Leaf royal clans consider a major secret.

-or, worse, not inferring that and instead going down the "well, Leaf has printing presses and suddenly has so many seals that they can afford to throw them around like candy" route which leads to panic and a preemptive dogpile on Leaf before it can conquer everybody else with its world-changing technological breakthrough.
I feel like if a Mori could realize that Kurosawa seals are identical, they would have already (The Kurosawa have a sealmaster every generation, after all). This means that either Ami probably won't notice, or the Mori already know, both of which mean we can't expect the Mori to gain any such intel about us from this.

Good point about the 'literally treason' thing, though. I think we could get Jiraiya's approval if we wanted but it's safer to just drop that whole idea.
 
Kurosawa have a sealmaster every generation, which Mari said was statistically improbable...methinks that the Mori know.
Hazou shook his head. "No. We don't talk about it, but didn't you ever wonder why the Kurosawas have had at least one seal master in every generation?"


"Hadn't really thought about it, to be honest," Inoue said. "Which, in retrospect, was a mistake. That's statistically improbable. Why is this a secret? Why aren't you all rolling in money and living the luxury life?"
 
Extremely impressive pessimism and well thought out criticism.

I think you're overreacting a bit on the "Gift her a brush." thing and on the general paranoia, but I think a lot of the specific points you brought out are pretty insightful and I find myself agreeing with a lot of them.



Like this? @Velorien can Hazou realistically carve something similar in the time he has left before the date?

Everyone else: Does this fit your idea of an official uplift symbol?
Shits dope, yo.
 
No joke, a stamp seal with that carved on it would be a hilarious and appropriate present. "I'm sure you'll get a lot of use out of this one!"

For some reason I overcorrected on the ^_^ meme so I didn't consider this a legit idea but Ami was the one who started this by sending it via message and we could justifiably play along IC.
 
I feel like if a Mori could realize that Kurosawa seals are identical, they would have already (The Kurosawa have a sealmaster every generation, after all). This means that either Ami probably won't notice, or the Mori already know, both of which mean we can't expect the Mori to gain any such intel about us from this.

Good point about the 'literally treason' thing, though. I think we could get Jiraiya's approval if we wanted but it's safer to just drop that whole idea.

-unless, the Kurosawa took steps to hide the ability which Hazou hasn't. Kurosawa are capable of creating variants or imperfect reproductions. Hazou just hasn't bothered. They could do something as simple as adding modifications with inert non-chakra ink. There's also the fact that there's a difference between the typical ninja's experience of getting issued a seal or three for a mission, probably made by different sealmasters, and just being handed a brick of perfectly identical seals.



Kurosawa have a sealmaster every generation, which Mari said was statistically improbable...methinks that the Mori know.

-or, deliberately cultivating an unbroken living tradition of in-house accumulated sealing skill and knowledge could just be a clan quirk like running a statistically improbable number of flower shops, especially if the Kurosawa were known for it before the Village era.



For some reason I overcorrected on the ^_^ meme so I didn't consider this a legit idea but Ami was the one who started this by sending it via message and we could justifiably play along IC.

-or, Ami panics when she thinks that the prodigal sealmaster has identified and reverse-engineered her secret genjutsu trap seal in an attempt to use it against her. He will have to be eliminated to maintain security.
 
Maybe it's just me, but bringing a gift seems too forward. This isn't a date, and we're not trying to thank Ami for something. I think it would give the wrong impression. Maaaybe we could do an elaborate calligraphy ^_^ modeled after the one she put in her letter, on a scroll intended for wall hanging as a semi-joke gift? It's clever and amusing without coming across as a confession gift, I think.

As for conversational topic planning for the Ami meeting itself, I think we:
  • Want Ami's advice on how we can best help and support Keiko, both generally and in particular with her 'I am just a tool' thing.
  • Want to find out Ami's political goals, and what her faction is/wants/who it's made up of.
  • Ask what she thinks about uplift ideas, mentioning various proposals. If she seems enthusiastic, see if she would in principle be onboard with working together on proposals that cross borders/help everyone.
 
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