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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Jello_Raptor said:
@everyone, but especially @Cariyaga, @faflec, @MMKII, @Dissonance, @MadScientist, @huhYeahGoodPoint, @Oneiros, and @Noumero (recent plan authors and frequent posters in no particular order):

I think we should be using the voting system a lot more for unofficial votes. It's well managed, easy to use, and represents minimal additional effort for the QMs.

It also gives us a great coordination mechanisms.
  • We can ask QM questions as a vote, and subsequent votes can signal player interest in the answer to the question.
    • For example: [x] Player Question: What did Hazou have for breakfast yesterday?
    • The QMs get a convenient log off all recent questions in the vote tally, ordered by interest.
    • They can start from the top and tackle them at their own leisure.
    • If they use the vote in their answer, players can use a vote tally to quickly find the answers to questions (do a tally, see if there's a QM voting for them)
  • Create unofficial votes to gather ideas and coordinate more complex plans over multiple voting cycles.
    • We keep on dropping longer term or more complex plans since the discussion is so focused on the next update. (@Vecht back me up here?)
    • Having longer term unofficial votes gives us a way to collect ideas so that we can incorporate them into short term plans.
    • Basically we can post them as action plans under some tag.
      • [X] Ami Plan: precommitments are the best strategy.
We should try this on a larger scale, since I seem to be the only one doing this.
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I'm down for doing this.

On the note of votes, I agree with @Radvic regarding his idea for post-tournament votes being more like other quests (he could explain it better than me).

Also, while we're at it, @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail, Spine of the Earth states
The user pushes their chakra along a continuous path of elemental earth to a target location, causing a narrow series of short rock spikes to erupt from the ground in a line to skewer their enemy. When the technique ends, the spikes collapse into rubble.
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Does the line have to be straight? It just says Continuous and Line, so I assume not, but it's worth asking for fancy sealing plans...
 
For future use, as before I'm in India and won't be updating this. Feel free to copy into future plans.

[x] Ami Plan: Cover the Basics

Italics are commentary, not part of the plan. Things in "quotes" are meant as inspiration rather than things that must be said verbatim

Goals: make casual contact with Ami, don't poke into her relationship with Keiko directly, discuss policy, establish side channels, prevent OPSEC issues.

Contingencies:
  • OPSEC!! Keep it.
  • Do not discuss Jiraiya or other members of our family, except where specifically mentioned in the plan.
  • Keep any statements limited to your personal history and beliefs, suitably cleaned, of course. Unless otherwise specified.
  • Keep your precommitments.
  • Flirt awkwardly. (Yes, specifically awkwardly. Like you're trying to practice on someone you have no chance with, so that you can do it better for someone else who you do.)
    • I want to emphasize how Hazou is "da cute widdle genin" here. Which frankly, we are.
  • Dispel regularly.
Plan:
  • Ask if we could speak in private. (Either directly or via subtext) trust her to take appropriate actions.
    • For instance: If we meet over tea, we can keep to small talk, and ask Ami if she wants to take a quiet walk together. Then we let her lead us somewhere and find a private space.
    • She's enough of a social there is no way she won't pick up what we actually want to do
    • A lot of what I want to do is better done in private, not because we are discussing anything dangerous, but to create an environment that is more comfortable to Hazou.
    • Sadly we don't have an option other than to trust her judgement. We're not going to talk about anything we're not fine with everyone knowing but if Ami's goals align with ours she's at most going to tell her faction.
  • Start with explanation of CCnJ & set up precommitments against manipulation under CCnJ.
    • No contracts, no commitments.
    • Just friendly sharing of information.
    • Either party can end conversation at any time.
    • Either party can ask to drop a topic at any time or refuse to answer a question, and each will respect that.
    • Hazou will leave if you try to force any issue.
    • We want to show, obliquely, that we care about Keiko, which is why we explain CCnJ.
    • We also want to set ground rules for our own safety. I don't expect direct violence. Ami will probably humor us.
  • We are open to addional contact via letters/indirect message.
    • Give Ami a deniable back channel to Keiko and Jiraiya.
    • Set up basic communication channels for future cooperation.
    • We want indirect messages so that we can mull them over with J and K before responding.
  • Discuss impending crash of population.
    • We have weak evidence if state actors killing civilians of other nations, in order to minimize future ninja population.
      • Do not discuss what evidence you have, just state that you have it.
    • Have hypothesis that this plus other social dynamics will cause civilizational collapse.
      • Mention that Keiko helped generate and find some supporting evidence for this hypothesis.
      • Do not talk about what the evidence is.
    • State that I don't want that to happen.
      • Speak only for yourself, refuse to comment on the beliefs of others.
    • Ask if there is anything relevant Ami wants to share.
    • This is the first really important handshake, we protect ourselves by only stating conclusion and epistemic status.
    • Even if Ami has nothing to add, we trade small amounts of information on our personal goals (not those of Jiraiya or Leaf), for a potential connection to a major Ally.
  • Talk about till-n-fills, explain basic idea, current implementation, suggest use in Mist.
    • Discuss seeming value of walls, and ninja used for infrastructure and production tasks.
    • Ask Ami's thoughts about the idea, potential improvements, and possible long term outcomes.
    • Yup, we're sticking to this stuff, it's something we want spread around. Plus it's basically public knowledge anyway.
    • If Ami engages with us in goodwill, we get some potentially useful criticism, if not we've lost nothing.
  • Ask about Ryugamine.
    • He's been an important figure in Mist.
    • After leaving Hazou found that, even if ryugamine's goals were opaque, Hazou's gained some appreciation for the way ryugamine approaches them .
    • What was it like being his apprentice? What's he like?
    • We don't have much to work with on Ryugamine (at least Hazou doesn't in character), but I can absolutely see Hazou mildly admiring him, esp. if the hive mind nudges him in that direction.
    • This is mostly for us to signal interest in him and hint at or suspicions they might work together.
    • It puts Ami in an interesting place with whether or not she nudges him our direction. We gain a lot if Ryugamine becomes slightly better disposed to us or leaf.
  • Discuss goals of uplift.
    • How we find the constant race between ninja for superiority a waste of resources that could be used for the betterment of people's lives.
    • All people, including civilians.
    • How something that is trivial to a ninja call be so impactful to a civilian.
      • Noburi's experiences as a doctor. Hazou's experiences with civilians.
      • Steer clear of specifics.
    • How, if we could cooperate, we could bring Leaf's current standard of living to everyone.
  • Leave Ami significant room to guide the discussion to her topics of interest, though try to get the above stuff in.
 
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Jello_Raptor said:
For future use, as before I'm in India and won't be updating this. Feel free to copy into future plans.

[x] Ami Plan: Cover the Basics

Italics are commentary, not part of the plan. Things in "quotes" are meant as inspiration rather than things that must be said verbatim

Goals: make casual contact with Ami, don't poke into her relationship with Keiko directly, discuss policy, establish side channels, prevent OPSEC issues.

Contingencies:
  • OPSEC!! Keep it.
  • Do not discuss Jiraiya or other members of our family, except where specifically mentioned in the plan.
  • Keep any statements limited to your personal history and beliefs, suitably cleaned, of course. Unless otherwise specified.
  • Keep your precommitments.
  • Flirt awkwardly. (Yes, specifically awkwardly. Like you're trying to practice on someone you have no chance with, so that you can do it better for someone else who you do.)
  • Dispel regularly.
Plan:
  • Ask if we could speak in private. (Either directly or via subtext) trust her to take appropriate actions.
    • For instance: If we meet over tea, we can keep to small talk, and ask Ami if she wants to take a quiet walk together. Then we let her lead us somewhere and find a private space.
    • She's enough of a social there is no way she won't pick up what we actually want to do
    • A lot of what I want to do is better done in private, not because we are discussing anything dangerous, but to create an environment that is more comfortable to Hazou.
    • Sadly we don't have an option other than to trust her judgement. We're not going to talk about anything we're not fine with everyone knowing but if Ami's goals align with ours she's at most going to tell her faction.
  • Start with explanation of CCnJ & set up precommitments against manipulation under CCnJ.
    • No contracts, no commitments.
    • Just friendly sharing of information.
    • Either party can end conversation at any time.
    • Either party can ask to drop a topic at any time or refuse to answer a question, and each will respect that.
    • Hazou will leave if you try to force any issue.
    • We want to show, obliquely, that we care about Keiko, which is why we explain CCnJ.
    • We also want to set ground rules for our own safety. I don't expect direct violence. Ami will probably humor us.
  • We are open to addional contact via letters/indirect message.
    • Give Ami a deniable back channel to Keiko and Jiraiya.
    • Set up basic communication channels for future cooperation.
    • We want indirect messages so that we can mull them over with J and K before responding.
  • Discuss impending crash of population.
    • We have weak evidence if state actors killing civilians of other nations, in order to minimize future ninja population.
      • Do not discuss what evidence you have, just state that you have it.
    • Have hypothesis that this plus other social dynamics will cause civilizational collapse.
      • Mention that Keiko helped generate and find some supporting evidence for this hypothesis.
      • Do not talk about what the evidence is.
    • State that I don't want that to happen.
      • Speak only for yourself, refuse to comment on the beliefs of others.
    • Ask if there is anything relevant Ami wants to share.
    • This is the first really important handshake, we protect ourselves by only stating conclusion and epistemic status.
    • Even if Ami has nothing to add, we trade small amounts of information on our personal goals (not those of Jiraiya or Leaf), for a potential connection to a major Ally.
  • Talk about till-n-fills, explain basic idea, current implementation, suggest use in Mist.
    • Discuss seeming value of walls, and ninja used for infrastructure and production tasks.
    • Ask Ami's thoughts about the idea, potential improvements, and possible long term outcomes.
    • Yup, we're sticking to this stuff, it's something we want spread around. Plus it's basically public knowledge anyway.
    • If Ami engages with us in goodwill, we get some potentially useful criticism, if not we've lost nothing.
  • Ask about Ryugamine.
    • He's been an important figure in Mist.
    • After leaving Hazou found that, even if ryugamine's goals were opaque, Hazou's gained some appreciation for the way ryugamine approaches them .
    • What was it like being his apprentice? What's he like?
    • We don't have much to work with on Ryugamine (at least Hazou doesn't in character), but I can absolutely see Hazou mildly admiring him, esp. if the hive mind nudges him in that direction.
    • This is mostly for us to signal interest in him and hint at or suspicions they might work together.
    • It puts Ami in an interesting place with whether or not she nudges him our direction. We gain a lot if Ryugamine becomes slightly better disposed to us or leaf.
  • Discuss goals of uplift.
    • How we find the constant race between ninja for superiority a waste of resources that could be used for the betterment of people's lives.
    • All people, including civilians.
    • How something that is trivial to a ninja call be so impactful to a civilian.
      • Noburi's experiences as a doctor. Hazou's experiences with civilians.
      • Steer clear of specifics.
    • How, if we could cooperate, we could bring Leaf's current standard of living to everyone.
  • Leave Ami significant room to guide the discussion to her topics of interest, though try to get the above stuff in.
Click to expand...
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Hope you get more steady internet access soon btw!
 
Cariyaga said:
Also, while we're at it, @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail, Spine of the Earth states
Does the line have to be straight? It just says Continuous and Line, so I assume not, but it's worth asking for fancy sealing plans...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

[X] Player Question: Spine Of The Earth Curvature.

Also keep in mind, this line is on the surface of a curved object (the Earth, with all it's little local ridges and bumps), so what even is a straight line anyway?

(Geodesic? Minimal distance curve between two points in the surface? Something else?)

:>
 
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Jello_Raptor said:
@everyone, but especially @Cariyaga, @faflec, @MMKII, @Dissonance, @MadScientist, @huhYeahGoodPoint, @Oneiros, and @Noumero (recent plan authors and frequent posters in no particular order):

I think we should be using the voting system a lot more for unofficial votes. It's well managed, easy to use, and represents minimal additional effort for the QMs.

It also gives us a great coordination mechanisms.
  • We can ask QM questions as a vote, and subsequent votes can signal player interest in the answer to the question.
    • For example: [x] Player Question: What did Hazou have for breakfast yesterday?
    • The QMs get a convenient log off all recent questions in the vote tally, ordered by interest.
    • They can start from the top and tackle them at their own leisure.
    • If they use the vote in their answer, players can use a vote tally to quickly find the answers to questions (do a tally, see if there's a QM voting for them)
  • Create unofficial votes to gather ideas and coordinate more complex plans over multiple voting cycles.
    • We keep on dropping longer term or more complex plans since the discussion is so focused on the next update. (@Vecht back me up here?)
    • Having longer term unofficial votes gives us a way to collect ideas so that we can incorporate them into short term plans.
    • Basically we can post them as action plans under some tag.
      • [X] Ami Plan: precommitments are the best strategy.
We should try this on a larger scale, since I seem to be the only one doing this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Worth noting that absent tasked voting, overuse of unofficial votes during plan vote cycles could complicate the tally. So long as it's kept to non-voting periods, though (or if this quest introduces tasked voting, which frankly would make a lot of sense with the way action/training/etc. plans are already labeled), then yeah it should be fairly low-impact.
 
Wiadi said:
Worth noting that absent tasked voting, overuse of unofficial votes during plan vote cycles could complicate the tally. So long as it's kept to non-voting periods, though (or if this quest introduces tasked voting, which frankly would make a lot of sense with the way action/training/etc. plans are already labeled), then yeah it should be fairly low-impact.
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Tasked voting?
 
Noumero said:
List of Marked for Death memes
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Glorious, simply glorious.
A few things I feel are missing, however:
1. Dating Ami- Players often want Hazo to court Keiko's dear sister, Ami. While incredible in many ways, price for her heart is Keiko's sanity, and possibly Hazo's life.
2. Killbox- When Hazo opens his mouth, consequences may follow. Once, he insulted a high-ranking Leaf official. For this, his team went to the killbox, and nearly died. See "I'll go pretty damn far" for more details.
3. Hello, cousin!- Iron Nerve is related to Sharingan. That means that Hazo and Sasuke are related. Which means they can go bowling together. Slightly safer, but less feasible than the Ami route.
4. Sharingangbang- Every child Hazou conceives has a small chance of gaining full Sharingan, rather than merely Iron Nerve. It's an argument for Hazo to start his own harem.
5. Snek Uncle- Orochimaru, one of the sannin, betrayed his team for SCIENCE! Players wish for Hazo to meet him, since they share a passion for breaking reality.
 
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*unlurks*
Re: Arranging a meeting with Ami

This is probably ungrounded paranoia, but isn't privately meeting some largely unafilliated ninja of a foreign nation (even worse, our former nation), going to make us look like Mist-spies?

Or rather, Hiashi could use this meeting as reason to raise 'justified concern' about our loyalties. Maybe.

If push came to shove, a Yamanaka mind probe would clear any doubts, but do we want Hazou to be mindprobed? (This is not a rethorical question, I'm actually unsure wether or not Hazous brain contains something a Yamanaka of appropriate clearance level should not be made aware of)
 
MrCogmor said:
I don't really see how it is superior to the standard explosive tag attached to a kunai.

I don't think this is unlikely. Ninja are going to have a fairly large idea of personal space and getting close enough to do something that like would raise red flags.
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The idea is that it gives an aspect bonus that we can tag for more rolls.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Velorien on Jan 9, 2019 at 7:02 AM, finished with 522 posts and 22 votes.
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Torpling said:
Or rather, Hiashi could use this meeting as reason to raise 'justified concern' about our loyalties. Maybe.
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At this point Hiashi could use the amount of water we drink as a reason we are still loyal to Mist because "who else benefits from us constantly having our bellies full of water but enemy Wakahisa who can communicate via different volumes in the stomach".
 
Torpling said:
*unlurks*
Re: Arranging a meeting with Ami

This is probably ungrounded paranoia, but isn't privately meeting some largely unafilliated ninja of a foreign nation (even worse, our former nation), going to make us look like Mist-spies?

Or rather, Hiashi could use this meeting as reason to raise 'justified concern' about our loyalties. Maybe.
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Happy to have you here, welcome. :)

She's basically family, it makes sense that we would want to at least contact them.

Also,

Hiashi: Why did Hazou meet privately with Keiko's sister? It's unconciable, he's certainly a spy!

Jiraiya: I know that stick was already deep inside your ass when you were born, but normal boys that age are starting to look at girls in ... new ways.

Jiraiya: Plus what better chance for him to practice what I've been teaching him in a live-fire environment.

Jiraiya: *Pervy eyebrow wiggle*​

Also, the Yamanaka are semi-allied with us through the Nara. Hiashi is going to dismiss any attempt to clear us out of hand.

Torpling said:
If push came to shove, a Yamanaka mind probe would clear any doubts, but do we want Hazou to be mindprobed? (This is not a rethorical question, I'm actually unsure wether or not Hazous brain contains something a Yamanaka of appropriate clearance level should not be made aware of)
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We're unsure how the hive mind interacts with a mind probe. It's been hinted that an in character yamanaka poster might join the thread for a little while if the SV mods approve.

Well maybe not hinted at, @OliWhail thinks it's a hilarious idea though.
 
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Enjou said:
Doesn't matter. Ami will see us anyways.

Hazou: "I'd like to schedule a meeting with Mori Ami."
Mori Mook: "Really? Hold on." *goes to check, returns promptly* "She'll see you now."
Hazou: "Uh... right now?"
Mori Mook: "Yes. She insisted."
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Yeah, this is why I preferred the "send a message" variant.

CCnJ:
Plus, having us take the meeting without allowing another vote would feel actively vindictive. I don't know how to describe it, but it would feel actively malicious. Not just evil in the playful way the QMs have been so far, but actively damaging to the trust we have in them.

That said, having the update end with us being dragged into Ami's room with her welcoming us would not be an issue in the same way.​
 
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Jello_Raptor said:
That said, having the update end with us being dragged into Ami's room with her welcoming us would not be an issue in the same way.
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Yes, it would.

The winning plan specifies that the meeting time should be at the convenience of Ami but after our match with Keiko. Which is likely one or two updates after this one since we haven't even made a plan for that yet.
 
Ami could just show up and drag us to her room, or abduct us. Doubt we can stop the genius Mori that plays Kage level politics from doing anything.
 
ContextBot said:
Ami could just show up and drag us to her room, or abduct us. Doubt we can stop the genius Mori that plays Kage level politics from doing anything.
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We could hide behind Keiko.

Also, that's not going to happen. Taking us against our will is a blatantly hostile act and we should have ANBU around us at all times, especially when we are in our room.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
Yeah, this is why I preferred the "send a message" variant.

CCnJ:
Plus, having us take the meeting without allowing another vote would feel actively vindictive. I don't know how to describe it, but it would feel actively malicious. Not just evil in the playful way the QMs have been so far, but actively damaging to the trust we have in them.

That said, having the update end with us being dragged into Ami's room with her welcoming us would not be an issue in the same way.​
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I would be more than happy with the update ending with us being dragged into a meeting with Ami. The entire plan could be spent on the meeting!
 
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