Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
Where? There's mention of it in the section after the plan ends, after what was included in the word count.
But nothing in the plan itself.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rational rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Where? There's mention of it in the section after the plan ends, after what was included in the word count.
But nothing in the plan itself.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
I am good at reading comprehension.
Seriously, how am I an academic?
- Location
- Yes.
Technically we're asking Jiraiya for permission first.
Now the question becomes: Would Jiraiya approve of us scheduling a meeting with a social-spec on his level?
JIRAIYA: Hell n--
VELORIEN: (waving hand: ) Yeah, sure. Why not?
JIRAIYA: Yeah, sure. Why not?
- Location
- Europe
Is it kidnapping if you're the Clan head and it's your son?
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I am jelly. I tried to go a few years ago but they made the visa process so difficult that I ragequit and went to Australia instead.
And yet, despite the fact that the hivemind constantly forgets this, NPCs have agency too. I don't know if we will decide that this is a thing that Ami would realistically do, but if we come to that conclusion then y'all will need to cope and deal.
Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
As long as Hazou makes the effort to refuse and replan but gets overruled (i.e. outsocialed or told that it has to happen now or never) then it's fine. But outright going with it without complaints would be ignoring part of the plan.
E: Also a meta-gaming argument: Having a 300 word limited plan be overridden by a 30 word portion of it - say Ami just yoinking Hazou and forcing a talk - but not ending before the talk happens would feel pretty bad.
Depending on the consequences this could kill the word limit experiment and bring back huge plans with paragraphs of contingencies and I don't think anyone on either QMs or player side will want that.
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hey my plan meet her right away! It's not my fault I'm braver than everyone else
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
We do have a small clue at what it might be like, from the Youthsuit chapter. It's ex-canon, so the QMs aren't beholden to anything within it, but it used to be canon so what the QMs wrote there gives a bit of insight into how they might treat it in the future.
(Specifically, what happened is that Hazou's mind was pretty much normal except for what Ino referred to as an 'aberrant personality manifold' which meant Hazou had many internal voices rather than few. In other words, a subtle reference to the hivemind but nothing overt or meaningful)
edit: that said, a direct hivemind-to-Yamanaka interaction would be really really interesting and I wouldn't object to seeing it happen.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I would. It would immediately become "Let's directly give the Yamanaka modern knowledge" quest
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
VELORIEN: (waving hand) This isn't the common sense you're looking for.
JIRAIYA: This isn't the common sense I'm looking for. Hazō, move along.
Origami Clock
Right twice a day
- Location
- Brighton, UK
New plan goals: explain Germ Theory and anti-biotics in 200 words or lessI would. It would immediately become "Let's directly give the Yamanaka modern knowledge" quest
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Partial or complete amnesia at the end of the session would still work in my mind.I would. It would immediately become "Let's directly give the Yamanaka modern knowledge" quest
The part I usually don't like about fourth wall shenanigans is how the hivemind is supposed to exist outside the story and the action plans are supposed to be Hazou's own ideas, so waggling your eyebrows that that's not the case leaves me uneasy. On the other hand, making the hivemind a fully canon part of the world that interacts with it in defined ways is perfectly fine.
I do agree that I don't want this quest to turn into 'Inoichi asks us questions and revolutionizes the world ez', but I'm confident that if the QMs wanted to we could figure out a way to make hivemind-to-Yamakana conversation work without breaking the setting (I'm mainly thinking amnesia, potentially as a result of angry bird god intervention).
"Disease is caused by tiny living stuff that's too small to see. You can acquire a useful poison that kills a lot of them from mouldy bread."
Done, wordcount: 27.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
Having her approach early and talk to us before we asked them to is fine.
Not giving us an opportunity to vote in a new plan at the start of that conversation, and instead using the current plan (which doesn't actually talk about what we'd say or how we want to react) is the problem.
In general yeah, it's often fine for you to just control Hazou when he's in a situation we haven't explicitly dealt with in the plan. But this is something that we've been hyped up for, discussing a lot, and thinking about.
Just doing the talk without allowing us to consolidate that discussion into a plan, and just controlling Hazou for it is what I'd have an issue with.
To summarize:
Ami (or anyone else) forcing an important conversation outside of the bounds set by Hazou is perfectly fine. In many cases it's a good simulationist decision.
What I'd object to is: not giving us a chance to vote in a new plan when it becomes apparent that the conversation is starting.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
Also fine: just having her drop in on us after we do the other stuff, having a short update, or shuffling components around so we ask her last.
Edit: Though just having a short update would mess with pacing a bit. I don't mind too much about that though.
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As I understand it, we get to optimise Hazou periodically, but we aren't Hazou. If Hazou gets summoned unexpectedly and forced to talk to Ami before he is prepared, he understandably wouldn't speak as optimally as he would with time to prepare. I think it would be totally fair (although inconvenient and annoying) for the QMs to write that scene as it would play out according to Hazou's characterisation. I don't think they are beholden to stop and let us optimise any particular decision. In the past they've balked at us putting "update ends if X occurs" when we've tried to work around that.
That being said, not getting a chance to re-plan if something unexpected happens incentivises the thread putting more and more into any given plan "just in case" so...
TL;DR: I don't think it's a problem or unfair for the QMs to include the Ami talk, but it does create perverse incentives.
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Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
In the general case I'd agree. But here that would mean discarding all the thought and discussion that had already happened, and deeply undermining player agency.
When there is a solution (ending the update early) that lets us keep player agency and NPC agency, this feels particularly bad.
Origami Clock
Right twice a day
- Location
- Brighton, UK
IMO, that's sophistry. The hive mind was originally Hazō, but because if the commitment to simulationism, that directl relationship disadvantaged players because while we were playing Hazou, we didn't have a handy booklet of all the things that Hazō implicitly knows through his education and getting brought up in Mist.
Hence, we got the current compromise between having a quest and being simulationist. Having Hazō (I.e. us) being unable to react properly to a narratively significant event (our first meeting with the much hyped Ami) would be sacrificing the nature of the quest as a quest for the benefits of simulationist narrative.
NB: player agency is probably even more of a priority IMO, just because quests are dependent on player engagement, and quests with a barrier to entry as high as this one are very vulnerable to drops in player engagement. Look at TBG for instance.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If I were writing the update and decided to force the meeting, I would consider it reasonable to have Hazō resist and then end before the conversation actually happened, or at least leave a hole that could be filled in the next update after y'all voted. I don't know if @Velorien would feel the same way; you'd have to ask him.
As to your metagaming argument: You are welcome to go back to writing 2,000 word plans, but they will get you (N - 16 XP) because we aren't going going to shut down the word limit rules without a good reason.
"Disease is caused by germs. They are tiny animals, so small that you cannot see them without a microscope, which is like a telescope that makes things look bigger. Germs get inside you and reproduce, causing damage as they grow. There are two types, bacteria and viruses.You can kill bacteria and most viruses with high heat (350F+, an hour), by soaking in bleach, lye, or strong alcohol for at least 10 minutes, or with antibiotics. Making antibiotics requires a lot of experimentation and will kill the initial subjects; start on animals. Look for a bluish-green mold on cantaloupe or bread. Grow in a sterile flask with a growth medium that I don't know how to make, then apply. [EDIT: A few people will have allergic reactions to antibiotics. These reactions are usually just unpleasant but can occasionally be fatal. If someone does not have an allergic reaction the first time then it is very, very, very unlikely that they will have one in the future.]
How's that?
EDIT: Making penicillin is seriously hard, especially if you don't have access to chemical supply companies.
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Comes in at 207Article: Disease is caused by living things so small that you cannot see them without a special inverted telescope that makes things look bigger. They get inside you and reproduce, causing damage as they multiply. There are two types. You can kill one type with very hot environments for over an hour, or by soaking in bleach, lye, or strong alcohol for at least 10 minutes, or with special very selective poisons. Identifying these poisons requires a lot of experimentation and will probably kill initial subjects; start on sick animals. Try extracting and purifying substances from bluish-green mold on fruit or bread, ideally taken and given heat-treated food in a flask that has been cleaned with one of the other methods and kept from open air and not touched so the tiny living things cannot get in. Keeping a cleansed volume enclosed keeps it safe because living things come directly from other living things. The other type is hard to kill but can be fought ahead of time by exposing healthy people to small amounts of the fluids of sick ones, so that healthy bodies can learn to recognize and fight that breed of second kind of disease while they are strong and can be watched and supported.
Probably worth putting in some basic statistics as well, to make it possible to identify which remedies actually work.
That brings it to 297. Someone should compress my version and add actual statistics (TODO: explain how to calculate p-values in 20 words or fewer)Article: Subjects healing after being exposed to something is not good enough proof that it works, because most people seek treatment when they are most ill, and most very sick people improve after being at their worst even without help. To have confidence in a remedy, the people given it must recover more, and more frequently, than people who receive attention from a physician, are given a remedy known to do little such as water flavored with a bitter cooking herb, and are told to drink plenty of water and rest.
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