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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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If I may, could we discuss a bit more about storage seals?

In a previous post, I pointed out that Hazou could product a scroll with enough storage seals to carry as much as a semi truck in 1.25 days and that using such scrolls could revolutionize trade (uplifting) by making freight transport much easier (arbitrary amounts transported at Ninja speeds). Furthermore, this could be done right now without research.

This proposal was quickly dismissed based on 2 proposed failure points:
1.Mass use of storage seals could cause mass destruction via chain reaction.
2. People already make storage seals, so one more seal maker is no big deal.

I don't find either of these points compelling and was wondering if we could discuss a bit more.

1. This scenario has a truck scroll being exploded and sending everything stored flying at high velocity (and that hitting other people's storage scrolls somehow?). The problem I see is that either the scroll seal will break before getting accelerated too much or the released stuff will tend to dampen. If the truck scroll explosion still works, you could still get around it by having loading/unloading docks at city edges or limit seals per scroll and put the scrolls in sturdy cases.

Even in a high usage scenario, I don't think you would get enough density for a chain reaction.

2. This would indicate that the market is at an equilibrium, where storage seals are being sold for about their supply/demand match. I don't think the world would look like it does if that were the case. Storage seals are one of the fundamentals techs which can be used to make everything better. A single storage seal with a box is the perfect refrigerator. Every squad should have at least one for camp equipment and spare weapons. As mentioned before, they can revolutionize transport. Ditto warehousing. The demand is definitely there.

So for the world to look like it does, the bottleneck must be on supply. Only... Hazou can make a seal every 5 minutes. That's 84 in an easy working day. That's 2520 every month, 29,400 every year. Even if everyone else is slower, we should see them in much more common use if there are even a few other seal masters making them. Tricks like the hot meals storage should be common in that case.

Thoughts?
 
charlesrwest said:
If I may, could we discuss a bit more about storage seals?

In a previous post, I pointed out that Hazou could product a scroll with enough storage seals to carry as much as a semi truck in 1.25 days and that using such scrolls could revolutionize trade (uplifting) by making freight transport much easier (arbitrary amounts transported at Ninja speeds). Furthermore, this could be done right now without research.

This proposal was quickly dismissed based on 2 proposed failure points:
1.Mass use of storage seals could cause mass destruction via chain reaction.
2. People already make storage seals, so one more seal maker is no big deal.

I don't find either of these points compelling and was wondering if we could discuss a bit more.

1. This scenario has a truck scroll being exploded and sending everything stored flying at high velocity (and that hitting other people's storage scrolls somehow?). The problem I see is that either the scroll seal will break before getting accelerated too much or the released stuff will tend to dampen. If the truck scroll explosion still works, you could still get around it by having loading/unloading docks at city edges or limit seals per scroll and put the scrolls in sturdy cases.

Even in a high usage scenario, I don't think you would get enough density for a chain reaction.

2. This would indicate that the market is at an equilibrium, where storage seals are being sold for about their supply/demand match. I don't think the world would look like it does if that were the case. Storage seals are one of the fundamentals techs which can be used to make everything better. A single storage seal with a box is the perfect refrigerator. Every squad should have at least one for camp equipment and spare weapons. As mentioned before, they can revolutionize transport. Ditto warehousing. The demand is definitely there.

So for the world to look like it does, the bottleneck must be on supply. Only... Hazou can make a seal every 5 minutes. That's 84 in an easy working day. That's 2520 every month, 29,400 every year. Even if everyone else is slower, we should see them in much more common use if there are even a few other seal masters making them. Tricks like the hot meals storage should be common in that case.

Thoughts?
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Hm. As far as avoiding explosions causing issues, you could always require that as much space as is contained in the storage seal be available in the storage seal's immediate surroundings (for commercial use). It would make carrying the contents slightly awkward, but significantly safer, I think.

Add in a pressure-detecting component that seals/unseals them -- along with a detection component for if the area above already contains something -- and I think it could work quite well, actually.

The only problem is, well... it's pretty easy to smuggle explosives in that way.
 
Cariyaga said:
Word Count: 280, can cut it down substantially

Changelog:
  • Catch up with Hana before leaving
    • Topics, among others:
    • About Mari
      • Bring this up gently.
      • He's forgiven her for what she did in full knowledge of what it entailed.
      • He doesn't expect her to, but he'd like it if she would give her a chance.
    • About Akane
      • Talk about what Akane said and how he feels about it
      • Meta: Intend for Hazou to realize she broke up with him in a relatively-safe environment around someone he trusts
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  • Why do we need to allude to what she did? Just say "I know what you think she did."
  • Do we need to talk about Akane in hostile territory? There's Mari at home. She can help Hazō there.
 
Sweet.

@Explosives:
In that case, couldn't you just have scrolls be unloaded outside of heavily populated areas and have single/small scrolls be used to transport them the rest of the way into the city?

Ditto, is there anything stopping people from smuggling stuff in that way WITHOUT them being used for commercial transport?
 
Cariyaga said:
Does anyone else have things they'd like me to change for this plan in order to earn their votes?
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Eaglejarl just said that Hazou has already caught up with Hana before leaving, so doing it again seems rather redundant. You're asking to repeat a conversation that already happened. I'd drop that whole section.

Really, the plan seems a little unambitious. It's have a conversation about this, then have a conversation about that, and lacks any idea of going and accomplishing something.
 
To those who've voted for my plan:

Do you have any suggestions for the part talking to Hana about Mari? I'm not entirely happy with that section, but I'm not sure how best to change it.
Kiba said:
  • Why do we need to allude to what she did? Just say "I know what you think she did."
  • Do we need to talk about Akane in hostile territory? There's Mari at home. She can help Hazō there.
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Because Hazou's not talking about what Hana thinks she did. He's talking about what she told him she did.

Mari isn't Hazou's mom, though.
Briefvoice said:
Eaglejarl just said that Hazou has already caught up with Hana before leaving, so doing it again seems rather redundant. You're asking to repeat a conversation that already happened. I'd drop that whole section.

Really, the plan seems a little unambitious. It's have a conversation about this, then have a conversation about that, and lacks any idea of going and accomplishing something.
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That's a fair critique of the plan, but... well, a lot of what we do for the next few weeks depends on Jiraiya and the results of this plan. I suppose I could have Hazou start doing the crazy challenges or whatever, but I can't reasonably see this plan lasting more than a day or so. We haven't discussed what we're going to research or anything (hopefully Casino seals, dammit).
 
Oneiros said:
Any one have stuff they would like change to heading home
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On my first read through, I was confused when the "seriously bad at politics" bullet stepped up one rank in the bullet hierarchy - that section seems to follow from the previous one.

It's also not clear whether we intend to actually do the Pangolin thing during the trip back, or as a separate endeavor during the month, or afterward - though I suppose that may be wrapped up into the 'ask Jiraiya' bit.

The last sub-bullet mentions running the mission on our own, while most of the other bullets regarding Hidden Mountain delegate to a Jiraiya chosen emissary and/or pangolin. In context, it looks like it specifically aims toward getting Keiko close enough to send a Pangolin in, but that can be made explicit, either verbally or by shifting bullet structure.
 
Cariyaga said:
[X] Action Plan: Girls, Goals, and Shadow Clones

  • Maintain OPSEC at all times as appropriate
  • Catch up with Hana before leaving
    • Topics, among others:
    • About Mari
      • Bring this up gently.
      • He's forgiven her for what she did in full knowledge of what it entailed.
      • He doesn't expect her to, but he'd like it if she would give her a chance.
    • About Akane
      • Talk about what Akane said and how he feels about it
      • Meta: Intend for Hazou to realize she broke up with him in a relatively-safe environment around someone he trusts
  • Talk to Jiraiya about Shadow Clones once back at Leaf in OPSEC-friendly location
    • Explain: From what they were told on that night, the fact that a single clone being genjutsued knocked out Naruto implies that they transfer knowledge
      • He hasn't spoken with the others about this in case of OPSEC issues with the technique.
      • Consider that if it is chakra-expensive, Noburi could help with that -- though he hasn't asked -- to improve duration and effectiveness in combination with chakra beast batteries, perhaps use for training? Or paperwork.
  • Reunite with Kagome and Mari
    • Enjoy seeing them for the first time in forever!
    • Have the idea of starting a program -- funded by sold explosive seals, etc -- for tutoring "at risk" students due to Kagome's tutoring Honoka
      • It would pay the equivalent of a steady D rank salary, allowing Chuunin or skilled genin to stay safe in Konoha, earn a living wage, and help their country's future.
      • Or, alternatively, a pay-it-forward method: Ask that any students we tutor, then tutor another.
  • Discuss finding additional summon scrolls with the team and Jiraiya
    • What clans would the Pangolin and Toads not mind Kei's team working with?
    • Are there any known clans that are dissatisfied with their summoners?
      • Other than the crows. Although...
    • How about checking the Great Library over in the summon path?
    • How is the search for the Capybara/Condor scrolls going, anyway?
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  • Back in Leaf, please. My eye is twitching at the potential OPSEC breaches here. Not by Hana, but spies.
  • This sentence is rather nebulous and open to interpretation. Do you intend Hazou to say those exact words, or is this alluding to something specific? i.e. - Mari personally choosing us. If that one, please don't say this yet; if we want to broach that topic we can do so later after she's gotten to know Mari in person. Of course, we don't have to mention that in particular, but regardless, I would strongly advise not bringing up this topic at all until back in the safety of Leaf (see above).
These are pretty severe issues. If you fix them I will vote for your plan. Apologies for not reading in more detail before my previous post. Your summoning section is fine by me.
 
Cariyaga said:
That's a fair critique of the plan, but... well, a lot of what we do for the next few weeks depends on Jiraiya and the results of this plan. I suppose I could have Hazou start doing the crazy challenges or whatever, but I can't reasonably see this plan lasting more than a day or so. We haven't discussed what we're going to research or anything (hopefully Casino seals, dammit).
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Ask Jiraiya if he can devise some Training from Hell for our instructors to give us, maybe?

Ditto the bit that Vecht mentioned.
 
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Briefvoice said:
Eaglejarl just said that Hazou has already caught up with Hana before leaving, so doing it again seems rather redundant. You're asking to repeat a conversation that already happened. I'd drop that whole section.
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It's not redundant, I want to actually read that scene. And the Mari thing at least should make for a pretty cool scene.
 
Cariyaga said:
To those who've voted for my plan:

Do you have any suggestions for the part talking to Hana about Mari? I'm not entirely happy with that section, but I'm not sure how best to change it.

Because Hazou's not talking about what Hana thinks she did. He's talking about what she told him she did.

Mari isn't Hazou's mom, though.
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It's rather rude to tell Hana what Mari did without getting permission from her.
 
charlesrwest said:
If I may, could we discuss a bit more about storage seals?

In a previous post, I pointed out that Hazou could product a scroll with enough storage seals to carry as much as a semi truck in 1.25 days and that using such scrolls could revolutionize trade (uplifting) by making freight transport much easier (arbitrary amounts transported at Ninja speeds). Furthermore, this could be done right now without research.

This proposal was quickly dismissed based on 2 proposed failure points:
1.Mass use of storage seals could cause mass destruction via chain reaction.
2. People already make storage seals, so one more seal maker is no big deal.

I don't find either of these points compelling and was wondering if we could discuss a bit more.

1. This scenario has a truck scroll being exploded and sending everything stored flying at high velocity (and that hitting other people's storage scrolls somehow?). The problem I see is that either the scroll seal will break before getting accelerated too much or the released stuff will tend to dampen. If the truck scroll explosion still works, you could still get around it by having loading/unloading docks at city edges or limit seals per scroll and put the scrolls in sturdy cases.

Even in a high usage scenario, I don't think you would get enough density for a chain reaction.

2. This would indicate that the market is at an equilibrium, where storage seals are being sold for about their supply/demand match. I don't think the world would look like it does if that were the case. Storage seals are one of the fundamentals techs which can be used to make everything better. A single storage seal with a box is the perfect refrigerator. Every squad should have at least one for camp equipment and spare weapons. As mentioned before, they can revolutionize transport. Ditto warehousing. The demand is definitely there.

So for the world to look like it does, the bottleneck must be on supply. Only... Hazou can make a seal every 5 minutes. That's 84 in an easy working day. That's 2520 every month, 29,400 every year. Even if everyone else is slower, we should see them in much more common use if there are even a few other seal masters making them. Tricks like the hot meals storage should be common in that case.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I believe there were a few snags I brought up the first time around that bear repeating. The first is that storage seals are only operable by ninjas, so any use of storage seals requires a ninja on both ends of the equation, which scales costs up dramatically. Civilian-usable storage seals, a desire of ours for some time, would change all that, but that's a different topic.

The second thing I mentioned is that at the end of the day there's little to trade. Most civilian efforts go into farming, and while civilian storage seals are admittedly a godsend for preserving the food they grow the fact of the matter is that there isn't enough food surplus to support a very large number of craftsmen, and most of those concentrate around the ninja villages where their skills are most needed/in demand. There's room left over for trade, and we've seen trade in action, but I am skeptical that the costs of transit are the true bottleneck in trade here.
 
Oneiros said:
[x] Action plan: heading home
  • Maintain OPSEC for everything. Depending on the situation we may choose to do some of this in Leaf.
  • Go back to Leaf. Do everything below before or after going back, as appropriate.
  • Talk to Hana.
    • Focus mainly on catching up.
    • If a good time talk about Akane:
      • Talk about what Akane said and how he feels about it.
      • Meta: Intend for Hazou to realize she broke up with him in a relatively-safe environment around someone he trusts.
  • Talk to Jiraiya about Shadow Clones.
    • Explain: From what they were told on that night, the fact that a single clone being genjutsued knocked out Naruto implies knowledge transfer (MAINTAIN OPSEC FOR THIS).
      • Possibility seems to exist for training with them, using them to help with paperwork...
      • Elaborate on Chakra Beast Containment Facility for Noburi to drain for shadow clone training.
        • If this seems unsafe, suggest doing training in high-chakra density locations (Forest of Death, Swamp of Death...).
  • Summoning scroll conspiracy:
    • Talk to Keiko and Noburi about trying to find summoning scrolls post-tournament.
    • This is just meant to generate discussion within Team Uplift about the viability of this idea
    • Keiko could research location of summoners. Try to get Condor/Capybara intel from the pangolins/Great Academy.
    • Noburi could talk to mednin to learn about the Hinago Medical Facility for Capybara intel (esp. Kabuto).
    • Hazō could strengthen bonds with Leaf Yakuza. Try learning about their Rice assets.
  • Ask Jiraiya about Hidden Mountain
    • Kei can veto this
    • Remind him that it's almost been a year
    • We want them to send an emissary to leaf to start negotiations ASAP
    • Suggest making contact early because training for the exams gives a good excuse for us to not be heavily involved in negotiations.
  • Seriously we are really bad at politics
    • Also bring up the fact that if we do it now we can have the negotiations be through Jiraiya in his role as Keiko's father. That way if he loses the hat Leaf at large risks losing the alliance.
    • We can just get relatively close and summon a Pangolin to deliver the message
    • Team Gōketsu has shown a high degree of competence in the exams. As well as having a huge amount of field experience. We should have no problem running this mission on our own
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  • Same critique as above. This should be done explicitly back at Leaf. Even the convo about Akane risks further outing her usage of EM or our usage of macerators to potential spies.
  • I'm not sure why HM now, but I don't strongly object either. I could see it paying off to check in on this plot bunny, although it most likely will just be a distraction.
 
@Vecht
Cariyaga said:
Word Count: 280, can cut it down substantially

Changelog:

  1. At IV's recommendation, changed out meta line regarding agency for "Talk about what Akane said and how he feels about it"
  2. Added Swamp of Death to discussion on Shadow Clones at MadScientist's suggestion.
  3. Added two lines about asking after summon scrolls in the section on shadow clones at Erolki's suggestion.
  4. Adjusted at Roomba's suggestion:
    1. Section talking about Mari
    2. Section talking about shadow clones
  5. At Vecht's suggestion, added the bit about asking after summon scrolls.
  6. Added opsec preface at faflec's suggestion
  7. Adjusted Hana discussion on Vecht's suggestion


[X] Action Plan: Girls, Goals, and Shadow Clones

  • Maintain OPSEC at all times as appropriate

  • Catch up with Hana when back in Leaf
    • Topics, among others:
    • About Mari
      • Bring this up gently.
      • He doesn't expect her to get along right off, but he'd like it if she would give her a chance.
      • He can sympathize with his mom, but... well, Mari retired over the whole ordeal. She beats herself up enough.
    • About Akane
      • Talk about what Akane said and how he feels about it
      • Meta: Intend for Hazou to realize she broke up with him in a relatively-safe environment around someone he trusts
  • Talk to Jiraiya about Shadow Clones once back at Leaf in OPSEC-friendly location
    • Explain: From what they were told on that night, the fact that a single clone being genjutsued knocked out Naruto implies that they transfer knowledge
      • He hasn't spoken with the others about this in case of OPSEC issues with the technique.
      • Consider that if it is chakra-expensive, Noburi could help with that -- though he hasn't asked -- to improve duration and effectiveness in combination with chakra beast batteries, perhaps use for training? Or paperwork.
  • Reunite with Kagome and Mari
    • Enjoy seeing them for the first time in forever!
    • Have the idea of starting a program -- funded by sold explosive seals, etc -- for tutoring "at risk" students due to Kagome's tutoring Honoka
      • It would pay the equivalent of a steady D rank salary, allowing Chuunin or skilled genin to stay safe in Konoha, earn a living wage, and help their country's future.
      • Or, alternatively, a pay-it-forward method: Ask that any students we tutor, then tutor another.
  • Discuss finding additional summon scrolls with the team and Jiraiya
    • What clans would the Pangolin and Toads not mind Kei's team working with?
    • Are there any known clans that are dissatisfied with their summoners?
      • Other than the crows. Although...
    • How about checking the Great Library over in the summon path?
    • How is the search for the Capybara/Condor scrolls going, anyway?
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Click to shrink...
Does this work?

Also, gonna work on cutting the word count back a bit while keeping the content.
 
Vecht said:
  • Same critique as above. This should be done explicitly back at Leaf. Even the convo about Akane risks further outing her usage of EM or our usage of macerators to potential spies.
  • I'm not sure why HM now, but I don't strongly object either. I could see it paying off to check in on this plot bunny, although it most likely will just be a distraction.
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Went ahead and dropped talking to Hana
 
The headhunter technique (pull people underground up to their necks) would mesh well with us knowing Hiding Like a Mole and is a non-lethal takedown (can't move to form seals, and substitution shouldn't have any valid targets if you can't move)

I like most parts of both plans now...
[X] Action plan: heading home
[X] Action Plan: Girls, Goals, and Shadow Clones

A vote for both is a null vote, but increased participation is better than nothing.
 
@Cariyaga
  • Use Kagome's tutoring activity as basis for a "Tutoring At Risk Kids program."
    • Possibly subsidized by selling explosive seals?
    • D-rank mission pays or pay-it-forward scheme.
 
@Cariyaga, first off I'd like to specifically note that I quite like your new section on the summon scroll stuff.

I will add my voice to those concerned about going into detail on the Mari thing a) without consulting her and b) in hostile territory (yes, Mist has a decent idea of what happened, but we don't need to risk OPSEC). However:
OliWhail said:
"She led you into a deathtrap. That she orchestrated. You'd still be home without her," Hana commented coldly, looking off into the distance.
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I think we're safe responding at least a little to that specific accusation, given Hana get her info on what happened here in Mist. As long as we're careful... then again, y'know what? It can probably wait until we're in Leaf. "Careful" and "Hazou dealing with an emotionally sensitive subject" don't always get along great :p.
 
I notice every plan so far says 'Concern about OPSEC' and I'm actually kinda annoyed by it. How about we just make it automatic and only break OPSEC when we specifically vote for it?
 
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