zap lunch
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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Anyone here planning to be at the CRAR alumni reunion in augest?
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
For the record, this is the subtype of "long plan" that I really like--the actual instructions are concise and straightforward enough to serve as good writing prompts, while the explanations help me get into the right Hazō "mindset" and avoid misinterpreting the players' intent. There's a tradeoff in terms of "I have to absorb all this information before I can even start writing", but it's one I'm prepared to make.
- Location
- Potato land
In an attempt to summarize the conclusions thus far:
I don't know if I want to take a step as extreme as limiting the next plan to 100 words. However, in an attempt to help 1 and 2, I'm going to play Conservation of Detail Police for the next plan. What this means to me, is cutting out all the superfluous actions which should be obvious to both our characters and the QMs, and keeping execution details where they actually matter and help. Apologies in advance to whomever will be proposing plans, I'm probably going to be very annoying.
As for 3, @Velorien, would it help if we, as the players, gave you more agency in deciding what scenes you'd like to write? From our perspective, plan actions are instrumental, they're things we want to do in order to get the results we desire, rather than what we want to necessarily see happen in an update. Some of them don't even need explicit acknowledgement, I think.
Let's take the current plan for example. It spends a good amount of time on talking to the client, but none of this really needs to happen on screen unless you think it would make for a fun scene. Similarly, it specifies a detailed protocol for moving the client around, but none of it needs to be shown unless it becomes relevant because we are attacked. Keiko scouting is similarly something that you can inform us of the results OOC. So, aside from the possibility of attack, it's basically us escorting the client around, which you can divide into scenes however you want.
Similarly, in terms of how much time the update covers without intruding on our agency, would it help if the plan included something like "Proceed with this until the end of the exam unless we are attacked or important information comes up (for example about a team we might want to hunt)"?
- Our plans are excessively detailed and overspecified in general. The current winning plan could easily be cut down to about a third of its length without any loss of information, according to @eaglejarl.
- With that said, there is room for useful detail in plans. This kind of detail saves QM spoons and lets players achieve much better outcomes.
- Plans are also sometimes too "wide", they propose too many things to do, slowing down the pace of the story and making it difficult for QMs to turn them into good updates.
I don't know if I want to take a step as extreme as limiting the next plan to 100 words. However, in an attempt to help 1 and 2, I'm going to play Conservation of Detail Police for the next plan. What this means to me, is cutting out all the superfluous actions which should be obvious to both our characters and the QMs, and keeping execution details where they actually matter and help. Apologies in advance to whomever will be proposing plans, I'm probably going to be very annoying.
As for 3, @Velorien, would it help if we, as the players, gave you more agency in deciding what scenes you'd like to write? From our perspective, plan actions are instrumental, they're things we want to do in order to get the results we desire, rather than what we want to necessarily see happen in an update. Some of them don't even need explicit acknowledgement, I think.
Let's take the current plan for example. It spends a good amount of time on talking to the client, but none of this really needs to happen on screen unless you think it would make for a fun scene. Similarly, it specifies a detailed protocol for moving the client around, but none of it needs to be shown unless it becomes relevant because we are attacked. Keiko scouting is similarly something that you can inform us of the results OOC. So, aside from the possibility of attack, it's basically us escorting the client around, which you can divide into scenes however you want.
Similarly, in terms of how much time the update covers without intruding on our agency, would it help if the plan included something like "Proceed with this until the end of the exam unless we are attacked or important information comes up (for example about a team we might want to hunt)"?
For #3, part of the problem is that we never know when something will get shot down as, "stupid idea, dismissed" so it helps to include several things that might be done.
- Location
- USA
I agree that the drug-framing idea is definitely one that warrants going into detail, but my reasoning for that is because it's a "flash of inspiration" idea, one that's unintuitive and/or counterintuitive and so requires that we go into some depth to make sure that the point gets across accurately. Is this also how you approach it, or is it more "this template is what I like to see, even for more 'intuitive' stuff"?
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- Location
- Potato land
Only solution I can think of to this would be to have more QM feedback on the speculative actions as they are discussed. If a QM outright stated that Keiko and Noburi won't agree to the drug legislation gambit as is, then we have a choice of figuring out how to do it in more detail, making it a "flash of inspiration" thing, or letting it go and removing it from the plan.
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I'd just like to say how much I love the fact that we're seriously proposing to hijack the legislative process of a foreign power to get a better mark on our exams.
A good strategist controls the pieces. A great strategist controls the gameboard.
- Location
- Yes.
This whole thing is going to make Shikaku so suspicious.
'Look at him! He's not even pretending anymore!'
'Look at him! He's not even pretending anymore!'
- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
new tag: "table flip isn't the normal plan?"
- Location
- Under a Rock
Forcing our dear Aunt's hand might be counterproductive, if done improperly. Our goal here is to make Leaf look powerful by running up the score. We want to make Leaf look powerful, ultimately, because it makes Jiraiya's job easier. Also, our clan personally looking powerful helps us.
So if at all possible, whoever we plant the drugs on should be an ally of the Mizukage that is against closer ties to Leaf. Or a close but less well guarded family member of that ally. That way they spend political capital saving face rather than fighting Jiraiya. If we get unreasonably lucky, they have a child in the chunnin exams, and now we don't have to worry about this counting as harm if we are discovered.
Using Hazou's mother for the task doesn't seem profitable. Increased risks if discovered, ranging from being kicked out of the exams to delaying her trip to Leaf. She is most likely will already be allowed to come back to Leaf with us, no need to complicate things.
So if at all possible, whoever we plant the drugs on should be an ally of the Mizukage that is against closer ties to Leaf. Or a close but less well guarded family member of that ally. That way they spend political capital saving face rather than fighting Jiraiya. If we get unreasonably lucky, they have a child in the chunnin exams, and now we don't have to worry about this counting as harm if we are discovered.
Using Hazou's mother for the task doesn't seem profitable. Increased risks if discovered, ranging from being kicked out of the exams to delaying her trip to Leaf. She is most likely will already be allowed to come back to Leaf with us, no need to complicate things.
There is a great passage from the book Komarr by Lois McMaster Bujold that I alwyas think of when the topic of genius comes up. I'll write out the quote in full because it's worth remembering.
I always thought there's some truth to that. Nearly all geniuses are only geniuses part of the time. Genius isn't measured by how many dumbass things you do. It's measured by the brilliant things you do.
I always thought there's some truth to that. Nearly all geniuses are only geniuses part of the time. Genius isn't measured by how many dumbass things you do. It's measured by the brilliant things you do.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well, I'm not going to say "No, I'd rather have less agency in choosing what I want to write". Certainly, I'm happy to leave necessary but unexciting things offscreen in favour of more Interesting Things happening to you. We do it anyway to an extent, and it seems to work out OK as long as the relevant information gets provided in some form.
Incidentally, I am also happy with contingent plan sections ("Here is what we do if we get attacked"), and don't really consider them to be a burden in terms of plan length. They save spoons and are often reusable. Actually, they're a good opportunity for the modular planning concept you guys piloted earlier.
After QM discussion, this is something we're prepared to try on an experimental basis.
The other matter regarding increasing participation, and I don't think this is something that can really be addressed on the QM side, is making the general flow of conversation in the thread more open to non-regulars and people who feel they shouldn't join the discussion if they have no original insights to contribute. Does anyone have thoughts on how we can work on this?
dhasenan
always lowercase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
For when we have downtime after this event:
[ ] Team Hamsterball
If such minor, pesky things as
that's not how seals work, it's set-your-face-on-fire stupid get in the way, we can grind Craft (Basketweaving), head out into the swamp to gather rattan or woody vines, and weave ourselves into a ball. — We probably want to get back into town before we weave the ball. Spinning through a swamp doesn't sound like fun.
[ ] Team Hamsterball
- Alter an Earth Dome seal into an Earth Bowl seal
- Set up a couple of posts
- Put up an Earth Bowl between them
- Apply mortar to the upper lip
- Activate the Glorious Miner Saver seal whose name isn't worth remembering
- Put up an Earth Dome on top
- Roll
If such minor, pesky things as
that's not how seals work, it's set-your-face-on-fire stupid get in the way, we can grind Craft (Basketweaving), head out into the swamp to gather rattan or woody vines, and weave ourselves into a ball. — We probably want to get back into town before we weave the ball. Spinning through a swamp doesn't sound like fun.
- Location
- Potato land
Yeah, I think we're also happy with them, and even have a proctor interaction protocol written that we forgot to link in the past two plans.
However, I think they're also another barrier to entry, if not managed carefully. If I'm not a thread regular, and want to propose a plan, I need to not only be aware that contingencies exist, but also what they are and where to find them. Linking forum posts unfortunately isn't a good tool for this. Maybe a wiki page instead? It wouldn't really be something most people would ever need to edit, but we could link it in the opening post and modify it occasionally as new long-lived contingencies come up.
I would take the position, why does that have to be reinserted in every plan? Once it's been voted in, it shouldn't have to be revoted every time afterwards. The QMs can just bookmark it or something
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
To remind them of it, mostly. As much as we might like them to be otherwise, they are only human
- Location
- Potato land
I'd like it to be maximally visible, basically. Even if we agree that we can have long-lived contingency votes, which then go to an external document that QMs can look at whenever they need to, I'd still like to link it with every single plan, and ideally at the end of every update. I think this would be a pretty big win both in terms of plan size and spoon conservation of everyone involved, but I'd like people joining the thread to have as much clarity as to what is going on as possible.
- Location
- floating away
Easy, just have everybody henge into team let down.
Hazou doesn't know they exist.
On the other hand, we could probably just henge into a made-up Mist team that includes a Wakahisa.
- Location
- USA
I'm unsure of how important this aspect is by itself. My case is irregular because my unbounded ego allows me to join in on any conversation mid-stream without fear of any kind, so perhaps my perspectives is skewed. But in general I think a lot of the difficulty from non-regulars flows from how intensive engaging in the planning process is. Simplify that and I anticipate seeing benefits all down the line.
"I have an idea for the direction we should take the next update" is a lot easier to put out there than "subsection c of paragraph 9 should include an indemnity clause".
Yeah, but the purpose of those contingencies isn't, "we better say exactly what we're going to do or the QMs screw us". It's more like eaglejarl was talking about before, how seeing a description of how the team might escort the client around saves him the trouble of thinking of it himself if/when it becomes important. It doesn't need to be repeated every time so that they can peruse every detail. It's enough that that they read it once and can sort of remember the general approach, with it being easy enough to go back and check if it's important (since plans are linked at the beginning of game posts now).
In this specific case I don't even think a detailed contingency is necessary anymore. Hazou himself has now successfully impersonated a proctor "on screen" to steal a half-word. When the QMs model future interactions with proctors, the possibility that the proctor is a fake is going to be on his mind and I trust they'll have him take appropriate precautions.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm reasonably confident that we have never done that, although I'm prepared to be corrected if you have a link. As a general rule, I roll the dice for an ambush (or equivalent event) but if the players have gone to the trouble of explicitly planning for it then it either gives a bonus or obviates the need. As an example, the post-Swamp-event ambush battle that y'all set up ended up basically not needing any actual combat rolls because you did such a good a job of planning it that there was no point. There were some Alertness-vs-Stealth rolls where Chōji got massive Aspect bonuses but still pooched it. (In fairness, it was a terrible roll.)
Fantastic, thanks.
Did you mean CFAR?