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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Cariyaga said:
The only reason Kagome would ever attack us would be if he thought we were in disguise. He'd kill himself before he did so otherwise.
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I'm not sure you're right. If he sees us as betraying him, I'd give even odds that he breaks emotional ties to us, sees us as enemies, and blows us up.
Adhoc vote count started by Raxner on May 22, 2017 at 2:00 PM, finished with 94 posts and 2 votes.
  • [x] Action Plan: Deescalate, explain, deescalate
    [X] Plan Hard Choices
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Raxner said:
That is an excellent point, and you're probably right. Nevertheless, we have to say it to Kagome because otherwise we are telling him "if you run, we'll sic Leaf on you," and he might decide to kill us rather than take that risk.

Yes, in pre-retcon he didn't seem to be taking that route, but I'm not prepared to take the gamble that he won't go there this time.
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The guy has believed that the entire world (and more!) has been out to get him since forever. If he wants to take exile all he needs to do is leave and not tell anybody where he's going. Even a concerted effort from J would be very unlikely to find him, and he's unlikely to make a concerted effort towards something he wants to keep quiet.
 
Raxner said:
I'm not sure you're right. If he sees us as betraying him, I'd give even odds that he breaks emotional ties to us, sees us as enemies, and blows us up.
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We saw what happened when Akane threatened to have Kagome killed and Keiko suggested exile as an alternative. Kagome turned into a blubbering mess.

If we betray Kagome (and are incompetent enough to let him know we did this) he'll just break down crying.
 
Right, hence why I like giving him two options.

First, shape up and actually get to a point where he can have healthy interactions with other people.

Second, ship out and find a secluded corner in Fire that he can live comfortably in, and promise to visit when we can. Though with the stipulation that finding time to go see him will be relatively rare, maybe one of us drops by every few months.
 
I really think we're getting ahead of ourselves with talk of resolution and options right now. We need to be focused on defusing the fight and patching this well enough to continue the mission, with or without Kagome and/or Minami. At most, Kagome gets the message hammered home that he screwed up in about the worst way he possibly could and the sheer scale of the potential repercussions of that, with the resolution put on hold until Mari and J can weigh in.
 
Lailoken said:
I really think we're getting ahead of ourselves with talk of resolution and options right now. We need to be focused on defusing the fight and patching this well enough to continue the mission, with or without Kagome and/or Minami. At most, Kagome gets the message hammered home that he screwed up in about the worst way he possibly could and the sheer scale of the potential repercussions of that, with the resolution put on hold until Mari and J can weigh in.
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Mmm, whatever phrasing we use, we have to make it clear that boith Jiraiya and Mari get to decide. Not just Jiraiya alone.
 
Oneiros43 said:
I was just hoping that the MfD ninja where smarter than canon. Alas it seems to be a forlorn hope
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Is this the canon where Danzō can go over the Hokage's head to order the massacre of an entire clan, and afterwards still be not only alive but in the same post? Or the one where the standing policy in every village is to alienate their living superweapons as much as possible? Or the one where Leaf unanimously accepts as its Hokage an alcoholic, permanently indebted gambler who has spent the last few decades as a missing-nin in all but name?
 
Meh. The formal discipline is just a token for good form and potentially to placate Minami.

The important thing here is to traumatize the hell out of him with the realization that his decision very nearly cost him his family. Again. The only surprising thing about this whole mess is that I had thought that Kagome had already learned this specific lesson in dramatic fashion. He either has a positively religious epiphany regarding what happened here, in which case formal punishment is irrelevant, or he doesn't, in which case no amount of formal punishment is going to override his "protect my family" supergoal.

eaglejarl said:
Most of the team had kept their feet through the earthquake, but Inoue-sensei and Noburi were down, momentarily helpless. The Mountain nin were hurling kunai in every direction; most of them hit clones, but two of them targeted the real Inoue-sensei and Noburi. Multiple blades lanced into them, spiking him in the thigh and her in the gut. They both screamed but pushed themselves upright.

Everything in his soul screamed at Hazou to go back and save his team, but Shell White was very clear: retreat, do not engage under any circumstances. Rescuing people was what Inoue-sensei and the clones were there for. He forced himself to run away, skimming across the ground like an arrow from the bow. Noburi and Inoue-sensei were on their feet; they'd kawarimi with one of the...no, there weren't any surviving clones. Oh shit. No, it was okay, there were boulders set up throughout the area as kawarimi targets, they could escape no problem, it would be fine, all they had to do was kawa—

"DIE, YOU STINKING STINKERS!"

Hazou looked over his shoulder and felt his heart sink. Apparently, Kagome had decided that Shell White could go kiss a goat.

The sealmaster kawarimied with a small boulder that rested in the ground behind the left flank of the enemy's line. Before they could react he triggered his blast harness; forty separate shaped charges erupted in all directions, blowing his clothes off and splashing every ninja and tapir within ten meters outwards as a slurry of blood and meat fragments. Kagome was left wearing nothing but a pair of boxers and two wooden rings that held small blocks to his palms.

Every single one of the surviving Mountain nin hurled a barrage of kunai and shuriken at Kagome. The sealmaster wasn't moving fast enough, probably dazed by the noise and flash of the blast harness, he wouldn't be able to dodge—

Kagome was gone; Inoue-sensei was in his place, one hand clutching the kunai in her belly. She dropped, twisting and dodging frantically as the barrage went past. Kawarimiing into the path of a blade storm meant she had only an instant to react; she barely dodged in time, and was left with thin slices on face and arms from all-too-near misses.

...

Inoue's face was going slack as the painkiller came between herself and her body. Her limbs weren't coordinating well, but she still managed to grab Kagome's arm and drag him down beside her.

"What the fuck were you thinking, you stupid son of a bitch?!" she snarled, grabbing a fistful of his hair and shaking him. "I said White!"

...

"Good," Inoue said, her voice fuzzy. She blinked, forcing herself to focus, and then looked around for Kagome.

"Time for answers," she said. "Why did you ignore orders?" she growled.

Kagome swallowed. "I'm sorry," he said in a tiny voice.

"Sorry doesn't change anything," Inoue said. "What were you thinking?"

Kagome licked his lips, eyes flicking around guiltily. "Noburi was hit," he said. "And so were you. They would have finished you off in another second. We couldn't afford to lose you—you're the leader and he's the medic. You're not expendable." He shrugged. "I couldn't let you die, so I drew fire away from you."

Inoue glared at him, teeth gritted and fists clenched, for several long seconds. Eventually she couldn't hold it anymore. The anger drained away and she sighed, dropping back onto the bedding.

"Godsdamnit, Kagome," she said, sighing. "Listen to me. First of all, you are not expendable. We need you, and I will be seriously pissed off if you get yourself killed. Got it?"

"But—" Kagome said, before immediately subsiding at Inoue's glare.

"Not. Expendable," she growled. "Now, as to the rest: I could have saved us both. I have a Wind Wall technique that will block thrown weapons. I could have put the Wall up to defend us from the kunai, grabbed Noburi, and tossed some explosives around as a distraction while we ran for it."

"Oh," Kagome said.

"Those ninja were from the Inoue and the Aida clans," Inoue said. "They're the loremasters and religious leaders of the village. I called 'White' because if we had managed to get out of there without hurting anyone it would have completely solved our problems with the village. It would have been obvious that they had gone behind the other elders' backs, and that would have been enough to remove them from power. The entire remaining council would have been at least marginally in our favor. As it is we've killed some of the local ninja and what might or might not be their sacred animal. This may permanently kibosh Keiko's chance of taking the trial and getting the scroll."

"Oh," Kagome said, looking sick.

"Yeah," Inoue said. "Oh." She sighed. "Get some sleep, okay? And in the future, follow orders."

Kagome nodded like his head was on a spring. "I will," he said fervently. "I promise. From now on, I will. I'll be good."

Inoue snorted and glared at him for several seconds, but eventually she gave in to the pull of the sedative and lay back.

"Hazou," she said, struggling to speak clearly as the sedative swept her away. "You're in command until I...."
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eaglejarl said:
"No way," Kagome said, grabbing her arm and looking at the seal-covered hallway. "You are not walking into that. I don't care—"

She lay a hand on his arm and made herself smile. Her mother had often reminded her that smiling was important; it helped relax others.

"It's all right, Kagome," she whispered. "Please, trust me. I need this if I'm to be strong enough to protect you all."

Kagome paused, looking as though he'd swallowed a gallon of bugs soaked in urine. Reluctantly, he took his hand off her arm.

"If you don't come back, I will destroy this village," he said, in a voice that was not nearly as quiet as Keiko would have preferred. He shot Takahashi a glare, then looked back at Keiko, his eyes blazing with nigh-fanatic intensity. "Boom. Squash. Crater. I promise."

Keiko swallowed the lump in her throat and blinked away the water that gathered in her eyes. Impulsively, she pulled Kagome down so she could kiss his cheek.
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He second-guessed his leader and ended up putting her and everyone else in even greater danger because she knew things he didn't. She then put Hazou in charge while she wasn't available. He swore up and down that he'd learned his lesson and would be good.

Now he has just second-guessed his leader- all of them, including Hazou and Mari who designated the current leader and instructed him to obey. He did it with premeditation and for no other reason than that he decided that he knew better than everybody else. His attitude?

Velorien said:
"This isn't negotiable," Akane snapped. "Killing a teammate is betraying the team."

Kagome-sensei flinched, but recovered. "Just because Jiraiya-stinker foisted her off on us doesn't make her a teammate. My only captain is Inoue, and always will be."
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Velorien said:
"That's enough, Kagome," Akane said in a level voice. "Anything else you say is only going to make things worse. Do you understand?"

Kagome-sensei glared at her for a couple of seconds, but his attempt at intimidation found no purchase.

"…fine," he muttered.
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Ha ha- no. He needs to have the connection between the duplicity and the fundamental betrayal with the inherent consequences of his having made himself a severe danger to the family, along with all the comparisons to the last time he did this starkly highlighted. He needs his nose rubbed in it. Given his total inability to conceal his emotions that will tell us whether he has had the critical, "Oh god, what have I done?" moment when he realizes what he would do to himself if confronted with the same situation and collapses into a blubbering mess... or hasn't.

"Hasn't" would be the real problem, because we can't use orders, authority he recognizes, or even punishment to reprogram him with the nuance necessary to cover every scenario if he still disagrees with the underlying motivation. He likes being approved of, he likes being liked, but he'll ultimately cast that all aside in the single-minded pursuit of protecting his family whether they hate him for it or not. No amount of kicking a loyal dog is going to convince it to stop biting at things that smell threatening. You need to convince it that its behavior is counterproductive on its own terms. If that's not possible...
 
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Jello_Raptor said:
Mmm, whatever phrasing we use, we have to make it clear that boith Jiraiya and Mari get to decide. Not just Jiraiya alone.
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What makes you think that's up to us? He's the Clan Head and the Hokage; he's also the Sannin. Mari has no authority to decide, and no power to compel, unless Jiraiya gives it to her. She might get him to do that, yeah, but we can't order him to let her have a say. So we can throw in her name if that'll help get Kagome to listen to us, but it's basically an empty gesture.

Lailoken said:
No amount of kicking a loyal dog is going to convince it to stop biting at things that smell threatening. You need to convince it that its behavior is counterproductive on its own terms. If that's not possible...
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Then it's time for formal discipline. Which might involve execution. And that'll be Jiraiya's call, but we should be clear that it's a real possibility.

faflec said:
We saw what happened when Akane threatened to have Kagome killed and Keiko suggested exile as an alternative. Kagome turned into a blubbering mess.

If we betray Kagome (and are incompetent enough to let him know we did this) he'll just break down crying.
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I'm not sure that it plays out the same way every time. I think it might be a flip of the coin whether Kagome goes down crying or comes out swinging.
Adhoc vote count started by Raxner on May 22, 2017 at 3:51 PM, finished with 111 posts and 2 votes.
  • [x] Action Plan: Deescalate, explain, deescalate
    [X] Plan Hard Choices
Click to expand...
 
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Raxner said:
What makes you think that's up to us? He's the Clan Head and the Hokage; he's also the Sannin. Mari has no authority to decide, and no power to compel, unless Jiraiya gives it to her. She might get him to do that, yeah, but we can't order him to let her have a say.
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Who says she has to have actual authority? She has influence and context that J doesn't have. He will listen to her opinions. Not to mention, she's more than clever enough to know that even if she disagrees she has to publicly agree with J.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
Who says she has to have actual authority? She has influence and context that J doesn't have. He will listen to her opinions. Not to mention, she's more than clever enough to know that even if she disagrees she has to publicly agree with J.
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Of course. And that's also not something that comes from us. So we can say to Kagome "Jiraiya and Mari-sensei will decide your fate," and maybe that'll be useful, and if that's all you meant, I agree 100%. But if you meant that we need to make sure that Mari-sensei gets a say, then I think that's not something we can do.
Adhoc vote count started by Raxner on May 22, 2017 at 4:54 PM, finished with 124 posts and 2 votes.
  • [x] Action Plan: Deescalate, explain, deescalate
    [X] Plan Hard Choices
Click to expand...
 
Raxner said:
Of course. And that's also not something that comes from us. So we can say to Kagome "Jiraiya and Mari-sensei will decide your fate," and maybe that'll be useful, and if that's all you meant, I agree 100%. But if you meant that we need to make sure that Mari-sensei gets a say, then I think that's not something we can do.
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Yeah, I just meant the former.

I want to mention Mari explicitly since it's clear that Kagome actually respects her authority more than Minami or Jiraiya.

Edit: Though I do think we should tell Mari that "We told Kagome that you would have a hand in deciding whatever punishment he gets." She can absolutely figure out how to make it look like that, even if she doesn't really get a say.

Sometimes having an infiltrator, genjutsu mistress, master manipulator, as a clan matron can be helpful. :p

Edit 2: In the longer term, we should do what we can to make sure Kagome is rehabilitated. Because this is going to bite us again and again until he is better socialized.
 
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Just a note most ninjas don't level social very high. So Hazō has a good chance to convince Minami of some basic lies.

Fake edit: unless she's secretly an ANBU member
 
Okay, I just finished catching up with the thread since Wednesday. Oh boy, what a ride.

First off, I just wanna say how great this community is. I know I don't post much, but it's very refreshing and nice to be part of a community of reasonable and polite people. Even in the middle of the crisis, when other forums might devolve into 'us vs them' and throw around insults and ad hominem attacks, there was very little of that here. There were a couple people, but in at least one case, they were from outside the community anyway. In the beginning, there were a lot of emotionally charged words, but that died down pretty quickly. The vast majority of the posts were bringing up reasonable arguments for their side, with constructive criticism being directed at the QMs. It's incredible how far clear communication and good faith can go.

For the QMs, I know it can be hard to hear criticism or any negativity about work that, for all intents and purposes, is given out free of charge. Many content creators would just kick people out or double down on their convictions, and dismiss any argument against them. You guys didn't, and were very responsive to the players; you listened to all of their objections and explanations, shared the reasoning behind your decisions, and (this is huge) admitted you made mistakes, and took steps to correct them.

A place with civil, respectful, discourse, even during a highly emotional event, between people that can admit mistakes, and change their minds given reason, is a place to be proud of.


Also, shoutout to @FeepingCreature, who mentioned a Laundry Files style OpSec geas, which I had also thought of before reading the updates, but didn't get around to posting. That would make things so much easier if it was just not possible to leak secrets.

@eaglejarl @OliWhail @Velorien
 
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