Yes, but If Jiraiya has to choose between potentially several different earth nintaijutsu (Hey, it could happen!) then I'd want him to pick one that increases damage output.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Yes, but If Jiraiya has to choose between potentially several different earth nintaijutsu (Hey, it could happen!) then I'd want him to pick one that increases damage output.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
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Yes, but that still doesn't change the fact that it makes a tremorsense less valuable than it would be otherwise. No matter that they do stack, their combined utility is less than the sum of their individual marginal utilities.
When one option is so much less costly to us, it makes the tremorsense a much less obvious immediate choice. It is much better to spend our scarce reward resources on things that fix our major flaws and get us the most marginal utility. In this case, long-range attack/defense, stealth, and general survivability.
When we have a better base to build on, stacking becomes the best to improve our general strength. But when they're so many major holes to patch up, it's not worth reinforcing a patch when the balloon still isn't airtight.
This isn't actually a problem outside of rain. Nobby doesn't infuse the chakra with mist when he's drawing it, and if the mist jutsu doesn't create chakra construct mist (which is sort of a necessity for it to be useful). When he's siphoning chakra he draws in a channel through the mist.
Mind you, this would be a 3d sense and it would be possible to differentiate between the two.
Jello_Raptor
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@eaglejarl, @Velorien: How fast does chakra move? Is it closer to the speed of sound or the speed of light?
The experiment would be to put a bunch of chakra sensing seals in a row (say 100 with a 1m distance between adjacent ones), with a chakra burst triggered colinear to them. Would you be able to see the lights flash in order from one side to the other as the wave passes or would they all seem to flash at once?
The experiment would be to put a bunch of chakra sensing seals in a row (say 100 with a 1m distance between adjacent ones), with a chakra burst triggered colinear to them. Would you be able to see the lights flash in order from one side to the other as the wave passes or would they all seem to flash at once?
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I don't see it. He is going to give us the best jutsu that fits our preferences, and whether that jutsu has spikes or not seems irrelevant to me.
I agree with what you are saying in a general sense.
Now, taking that into account, how would you change the ordering in Whack-A-Mole Pinball.
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Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
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1. Skidmark over Tremorsense
2. If both primaries aren't met on Nintaijutsu and there exists a Tremorsense we could be taught, give us more details on both before we have to pick one. At that point which of the pair is better really depends on the details.
Edit: I might also have a tertiary requirement on the tunneling jutsu be that it's suitable for long distance travel without insane chakra usage. Also a note explaining that primary requirements are "must have", secondaries are "very good to have", and tertiaries are "nice to have". But nother of those are directly related to the marginal utility thing.
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Sorry, I have a hard time parsing that last bit. Could you put it in another way?
I'm not sure if I buy it.
For one thing, your previous argument underplayed the cost of the Sensory Belt. We need to do some extensive research before we get access to the belt, and it is not even close to being the only thing we have to research next. Before we get that research done, we will have no way to operate inside a low vision environment.
Second, I think you are overplaying the benefits of the sensory belt over the usefulness of Tremor Sense. The belt will give us good medium range detection on general direction, but once the opponent moves to a melee range, the belt will become less useful while the Tremor Sense just gets better. (Assuming we get a jutsu that fits our requirements.)
Third, 'not getting hit' is the first step on our Surviving a Fight list, and 'detection' is the first step of 'not getting hit'. If we want to double down somewhere, it's in good detection.
What I'm saying is, their stacking qualities are less 'patching an airtight balloon' and more 'adding another wheel to your unicycle'.
Does anyone else have an opinion about this?
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Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
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Hmm? We've already got chakra alarm seals to reverse engineer. All we need to do it make the alarm a bass rumble whose amplitude isn't thresholded but scales with chakra detected. That's on the order of research needed to reverse engineer a storage scroll and design the macerator.
Actually the sensory belt will be nearsighted. In the worst case the farther away the chakra producer is the less information we'll have about direction and distance. The more likely case, by my estimate, is that the farther away a chakra producer is the less information we'll have about just distance.
Skidmark isn't about just TacMove. We can also use it to move seals, our allies, environmental objects, or our enemies. It can be also used to undermine or dismantle structures.
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I like skidmark over tremorsense personally as well.
I'm not sure if we should be turning this into an actual vote or not (which to prefer in our proposal with primary/secondary/etc. to Jiraiya). Considering the amount of disagreement, and how different it is vs. just voting in an action plan (which is more collaborative work)
I'm not sure if we should be turning this into an actual vote or not (which to prefer in our proposal with primary/secondary/etc. to Jiraiya). Considering the amount of disagreement, and how different it is vs. just voting in an action plan (which is more collaborative work)
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I mean, there is an actual vote that Velorien is having us run through, so we can definitely have two jutsu plans with different emphasis (emphases?)
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- Yes.
Right, and Wind Wall does a lot of that too. It lets our allies move faster, improves the speed of thrown objects (e.g., kunai) and does the opposite to our enemies.
Skidmark does things better but we already have a jutsu that does things well enough.
Jello_Raptor
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You know, I'm generally coming around to the opinion that we really shouldn't be prioritizing these much at all. Because the specifics matter too much.
What I'd like to be able to do is use Skidmark to sneak seals around the battlefield or shuffle our rooted/casting allies out of the way of attacks. (Neither of which wind wall is good for, seals floating around isn't stealthy in the same way things basically crawling around the ground is, and win wall requires our allies to cooperate in order to get the TacMove boost.) And if Skidmark can't do that, then yes the sensory jutsu would probably be better.
We can't really encode that entire thought process/consensus into a plan, and we shouldn't try to. As it is our guesses are too vague to pick out these fine details from.
I'd like to give Jiraiya a list of 4/5 jutsu classes, have him give us options and details for any of those which have near matches, and then pick explicitly in another vote.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
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I can agree with that.
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- Europe
The ability to do that is explicitly one of the primary requirements.
Also note that the XP cost of getting one of these jutsu is 1 XP (if we level MEW to 10 now, it is 0.5 XP) so we are not risking that much.
Especially since we are coasting with an earlier favor, and not actually demanding anything new.
EDIT: Also, if you want to do this jutsu choosing business another way, you should really ping the QMs and talk to them about it.
EDIT 2:
Okay, so I did some alterations to the plan, please read through it again carefully.
Notably, I altered the nintaijutsu so that we are not interested in it if it doesn't fill the primary requirements. I also added that we would be interested in nintaijutsu even if it doesn't provide damage resistance, as long as it provides enhanced mobility or speed. I mean, maybe they have a Mud Form Nintaijutsu or something, you never know.
I also noted to prioritize chakra efficiency above secondary and tertiary requirements.
Feedback and opinions appreciated so I can post it as an actual plan.
[] Proto-Jutsu Hazou: Whack-A-Mole
"Now that you asked, I do have a list..."
In general, Hazou doesn't have the time the get too invested in one jutsu. He would prefer jutsu that use his general attributes instead of deep jutsu mastery to make use of the techniques. (Attribute requirements > Dice needed for usefulness)
List of Earth Jutsu Hazou wants ranked in order of preference.
Primary requirements are what we want the jutsu to have at minimum. Hazou also doesn't have that much chakra, so prioritize chakra efficiency over the secondary and especially over tertiary requirements. We trust J judgement in this.
- Earth Nintaijutsu
- Primary requirements
- Doesn't hinder mobility
- Provides high damage resistance or enhanced mobility or speed
- Secondary requirements
- Lets us punch dangerous surfaces (Lava, acid, metal spikes, horrors beyond the realm of man etc.)
- Adds to Taijutsu dice even with specialized taijutsu styles (No, we totally don't have one. Stop smirking.)
- Primary requirements
- Tunneling jutsu
- Primary requirements
- Fast, combat useful movement underground
- Secondary requirements
- Ability to leave the tunnels open
- Ability to vary the the size of the tunnel created
- Tertiary requirements
- Long distance travel without absolutely insane chakra cost
- Ability to detect what is going on in the surface
- Provides protection from suffocation for extended periods of time
- Primary requirements
- Tremor Sense no Jutsu
- Primary requirements
- Ranged detection without line of sight
- Usable while fighting, so no active channeling required at least for close range detection
- Secondary requirements
- Enables us to read opponent movement in melee combat with zero vision
- Tertiary requirements
- No handseals at level reachable for Hazou
- Heart and respiratory detection for social awareness
- Primary requirements
- Skidmark no Jutsu
- Decription: A jutsu that moves a patch (or patches) of ground around very quickly; used for moving ninjas and objects around the battefield
- Primary requirements
- The batch of ground doesn't have to be right next to the caster at start
- Ability to move at least a ninjas worth of mass on top of the patch
- Secondary requirements
- The moving patch of ground is stealthy and non-obvious
EDIT 3: As a general thing, I think we need to accept that we are not going to make a decision about this with all the information we could possibly want. Working out how the jutsus work takes a lot of time for the QMs and the requirements on this plan might already be pushing it
EDIT 4: You know, looking at our current situation, the bloated plan from last time, and the plan in this post; I think I'm actually using list making as a coping method.
Not sure how I feel about that.
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zap lunch
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
My primary idea for sealing jutsu would require technique hacking, and questions answered on the nature of chakra ink: Namely, whether ink produced by jutsu qualifies for chakra ink for the purpose of sealing. That being said, with sufficient skill in an earth jutsu intended for this, you could brand someone with a seal and activate it.
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- USA
You know, it may be very useful to throw in 'Sealing jutsu's' into the list of things we're potentially happy with. Seriously, who knows what he might say. Even a "no such thing, what is wrong with you" is an interesting answer, let alone a possible "yes, which one were you interested in"
Eaglejarl is here, is it time to panic yet? For a second I thought everything's great considering our current position, but then I remembered Akane on the surgical deathbed.
Also: assuming Akane lives and joins us, would we need to do an examination of her/get her examined? Are we at all worried that something could be done to her during her surgery (ex: tracking Seal placed in her so she can be tracked, etc.)? Do we think Noburi could realistically hit a level in medical things soon to detect such a thing? Or maybe he can try to examine her chakra stores and see if they're altered at all from before the Arikada incident?
Would a Seal like that be possible in general?
1) A seal that points towards another seal/gives you a distance or direction to another seal
2) A seal that lets you unload something that another seal stored. <- theoretically this is possible right? Since storage seals can be moved around but still store + unstore objects they're identified for
Eaglejarl is here, is it time to panic yet? For a second I thought everything's great considering our current position, but then I remembered Akane on the surgical deathbed.
Also: assuming Akane lives and joins us, would we need to do an examination of her/get her examined? Are we at all worried that something could be done to her during her surgery (ex: tracking Seal placed in her so she can be tracked, etc.)? Do we think Noburi could realistically hit a level in medical things soon to detect such a thing? Or maybe he can try to examine her chakra stores and see if they're altered at all from before the Arikada incident?
Would a Seal like that be possible in general?
1) A seal that points towards another seal/gives you a distance or direction to another seal
2) A seal that lets you unload something that another seal stored. <- theoretically this is possible right? Since storage seals can be moved around but still store + unstore objects they're identified for
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
IIRC storage seals work by creating a "key" based on what is being stored, where it's being stored, and when it's been stored.
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- USA
Huh, really? Can we tap into this in any way?
@eaglejarl @Velorien
Asking Kagome/Hazou's general Sealing knowledge:
1) Is it possible to create an 'Unload Seal' that releases things placed in another 'Load Seal' (aka linking Storage Seals so that either can store/unstore to the same storage space)? For example, via identifying this 'key' in a Load Seal and placing it in an Unload Seal
2) What was the Seal that sealed the Pangolin Summoning Scroll? Does Kagome know how to make them (it appeared to be a standard Seal from the way he spoke about it). Does Hazou have access to it/know how to draw it?
3) Does Kagome know in any way in which a Seal can be used to 'track' another Seal? For example, a Seal A and Seal B, where you can use Seal A to tell in what direction/how far Seal B is?
1 can be jury-rigged for instant communication, which at the least is inherently superior to sending 10-day messages to Jiraiya via the Summoning Realm. What's more, it could allow for these Seals to be placed with us and the Pangolins allowing cross-communication. Ex: we check the 'unload' seal twice a day for any messages from Panda etc.
For Skidmark, I think you should add being able to vary the size of the patch as a primary requirement. We seem to be assuming that (being able to more entire ninja but also single seals next to enemy ninja without them noticing) but it's probably best not to assume.
- Location
- Yes.
No way in the seven hells Jiraiya gives us such a bullshit jutsu. Seriously, Doton: Domu, plus the appropriate Awareness/speed to use the technique quickly enough, makes you invulnerable to any and all generic ninja equipment: Taijutsu, Weapons, Explosives...You need a powerful Raiton technique or some way to outspeed your opponent.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I mean, that is the ideal jump-into-S-rank type of jutsu...
zap lunch
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