- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
I included a "here are some stopping points that might be good" line right under "Methods"
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
This isn't a plan modification, but mention that Keiko could use her time spent in the Pangolin military force to her advantage in finding new pacts quickly. Surely she made SOME contacts there in her time with them.I included a "here are some stopping points that might be good" line right under "Methods"
Because he would know too much about how we think, and therefore be able to manipulate us too easily.
It's basically him going "Yeah, I'm gonna get my mindrapist to do some stuff to you that's gonna give me a ton of bonus Deception dice against you, but don't worry you can totally still trust me.".
- Location
- Yes.
Um, Jiraiya's never rolled Deception OR Diplomacy die against us before, so I'm pretty sure he's always going to be playing the game a couple levels above us.
That we know of. We might have seen rolls if we were watching from Mari's POV.
And even if he hasn't yet, this new strain on the relationship means he might do so soon.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Voting is closed.
CounterBot by eaglejarl, version 1.4
Plan name: Hopefully Not Cthulu
Voters: @Cariyaga, @ClawClawBite, @HyperCatnip, @Jello_Raptor, @Kiba, @OliWhail, @Restinan, @Solonarv, @Twofoe
Num votes: 9
Plan name: Akane: Nope
Voters: @1234qwerty
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Armageddon Initiative
Voters: @faflec
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Ask the Yamanaka if they've ever had problems with mind-reading Uchiha.
Voters: @faflec
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Don't drop your guard just yet. They might just be lulling us into doing so, so that it is easier to kill us.
Voters: @Daniel14541
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Get Scanned by the Yamanaka and Hope for the Best
Voters: @Jello_Raptor
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Give the Yamanaka fair warning that your head is a very weird place.
Voters: @Ridiculously Average Guy
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Hazou: Nope
Voters: @1234qwerty
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Hopefully Not Cthulu Limited
Voters: @faflec
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Kagome's Worst Nightmare
Voters: @faflec
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Keiko: Nope
Voters: @1234qwerty
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Noburi: Nope
Voters: @1234qwerty
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Oi, jackass. Find and kill Tobi. Before its too late and the Rabbit Goddess rises and the moon descends.
Voters: @Dark as Silver
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Training Akane: Nope
Voters: @OliWhail
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Training Hazou: Nope
Voters: @OliWhail
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Training Keiko: Combat Summoning
Voters: @1234qwerty
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Training Keiko: Nope
Voters: @OliWhail
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Training Noburi: Nope
Voters: @OliWhail
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Troll the Yamanaka with insane geometry figures interlaced with screaming.
Voters: @Shard
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Village hidden in the Crater.
Voters: @Dark as Silver
Num votes: 1
Number of voters: 15
CounterBot by eaglejarl, version 1.4
Plan name: Hopefully Not Cthulu
Voters: @Cariyaga, @ClawClawBite, @HyperCatnip, @Jello_Raptor, @Kiba, @OliWhail, @Restinan, @Solonarv, @Twofoe
Num votes: 9
Plan name: Akane: Nope
Voters: @1234qwerty
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Armageddon Initiative
Voters: @faflec
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Ask the Yamanaka if they've ever had problems with mind-reading Uchiha.
Voters: @faflec
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Don't drop your guard just yet. They might just be lulling us into doing so, so that it is easier to kill us.
Voters: @Daniel14541
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Get Scanned by the Yamanaka and Hope for the Best
Voters: @Jello_Raptor
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Give the Yamanaka fair warning that your head is a very weird place.
Voters: @Ridiculously Average Guy
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Hazou: Nope
Voters: @1234qwerty
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Hopefully Not Cthulu Limited
Voters: @faflec
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Kagome's Worst Nightmare
Voters: @faflec
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Keiko: Nope
Voters: @1234qwerty
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Noburi: Nope
Voters: @1234qwerty
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Oi, jackass. Find and kill Tobi. Before its too late and the Rabbit Goddess rises and the moon descends.
Voters: @Dark as Silver
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Training Akane: Nope
Voters: @OliWhail
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Training Hazou: Nope
Voters: @OliWhail
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Training Keiko: Combat Summoning
Voters: @1234qwerty
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Training Keiko: Nope
Voters: @OliWhail
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Training Noburi: Nope
Voters: @OliWhail
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Troll the Yamanaka with insane geometry figures interlaced with screaming.
Voters: @Shard
Num votes: 1
Plan name: Village hidden in the Crater.
Voters: @Dark as Silver
Num votes: 1
Number of voters: 15
If the Yamanaka could easily manipulate anyone they'd scanned, they'd rule the world by now.
Perhaps it would then be worth some effort to not let this strain our relationship?
- Location
- Europe
Naturally I missed the vote. Thankfully it doesn't affect the results this time.
EDIT: Wait, the vote wasn't closed when I started typing this?
I was more thinking about it from the perspective of @eaglejarl as he goes through the plan and tries to translate the plan into action and thoughts on Hazou's part. Is he going to pick up that part of the argument and give it enough consideration when it is buried deep under the spoilers and bullet points. The main things we want QMs to focus on should be apparent at first glance.
I noticed that you bolded that bit, lets hope it will suffice.
The problem is that we don't know how the scan works, so the only way to reliable control is to deny its use. If we let her mess with our brain she can fish out whatever she wants and we have no way to confirm what she picked up.
That is to say, it is useless to argue for a limited mind scan when we can't confirm if it happened or not.
But that's all done now, the plan is good and will get us started with the next mission. I kinda forgot about the training plans, we could've gotten something useful for Keiko and Noburi.
EDIT: Wait, the vote wasn't closed when I started typing this?
I was more thinking about it from the perspective of @eaglejarl as he goes through the plan and tries to translate the plan into action and thoughts on Hazou's part. Is he going to pick up that part of the argument and give it enough consideration when it is buried deep under the spoilers and bullet points. The main things we want QMs to focus on should be apparent at first glance.
I noticed that you bolded that bit, lets hope it will suffice.
The problem is that we don't know how the scan works, so the only way to reliable control is to deny its use. If we let her mess with our brain she can fish out whatever she wants and we have no way to confirm what she picked up.
That is to say, it is useless to argue for a limited mind scan when we can't confirm if it happened or not.
But that's all done now, the plan is good and will get us started with the next mission. I kinda forgot about the training plans, we could've gotten something useful for Keiko and Noburi.
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Or they can't scan people casually in an undetectable way.
Which seems to be the case.
You seem to think they can manipulate people who know they've been scanned, so I don't see why that should be a problem for them.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Manipulate as in play social games better, not mind control. This seems trivially true - the better you know someone's motivations, fears, and secrets, the easier it is to get them to do what you want, even if they know you're doing it, because they genuinely do want / fear those things / want to keep them secret.
If they went around forcibly scanning everyone in Konoha everyone would unite against them and wipe them out.
Two reasons.
Because manipulate!=mindcontrol (EDIT: ninja'd). If you kidnapped them and scanned them against their will then manipulation will be much harder than if they were scanned covertly without their knowledge (which I don't think is possible).
Because scanning isn't casual. If the Yamanaka want to scan, say, lord Aburame, then they need to get to him and stay in his presence for the duration of the scan. Which means unless you fight through his 24-hour guards you fail. Which means the Aburame know they scanned him, and replace him with a new head, undoing all your hard work.
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They wouldn't go around scanning Konoha, they'd go around scanning other clans before the village system is founded and at the very least we hear about the great Yamanaka who founded and rule Konoha.
Conceivably, Jiraya could use the information acquired here to threaten things he didn't know we cared about. That's a very different concern to assuming that every further interaction with him must involve bad faith on his part as @MadScientist was suggesting.
But they can flip any lower ranking ninja who go out on missions. Scan them while they're in a town and vanish into the crowd or something and use the knowledge acquired to manipulate them into positive relationships with Yamanaka. Before he knows it, Lord Aburame's subordinates are largely enamored of the Yamanaka and, after a generation for the leadership to shift, they become close allies and eventually get absorbed as a vassal state.
Alternatively, the Yamanaka aren't that effective at manipulating people they've scanned, the world looks the way it actually does, and you're fears are unfounded.
- Location
- Yes.
The 30+ Deception die Yamanaka says otherwise.
For that to happen the Yamanaka need to...
- Either regularly invade the Aburame base to scan their low level members, or be so provocative that the Aburame regularly send low ranking members to fight them. Both options seem to have a low survival rating.
- Make regular contact with those they've scanned in order to reinforce their manipulations. Again, not conducive to survival.
- Rely on Lord Aburame either not figuring out that all of the low ranking ninja he sends to fight the Yamanaka come back with a positive impression of them, or never spotting the Yamanaka that keep invading him prior to a low level ninja deciding that the Yamanaka are great, and sending in a full jonin/chunin battalion to wreck their farms with an insect plague.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
I wonder how many favors it would take to "come in out of the cold", to steal Mari's phrase. Where do we want to put that on our priority list, by the way? Below getting mom out of Kiri, presumably, but still pretty high up, since it's way easier to do things like stay alive, do sealing research, and meet Natuto/ Sasuke/ Lee/ whoever else and to learn more about what changed in this universe if we can join Leaf, which potentially makes planning to avert the end of the world way more effective.
Apparently the elemental nations don't know shit about cosmology, or at least Kagome doesn't. Anyone feel like starting the Copernican revolution?
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
This is only feasible if scanning is quick and hard to detect, otherwise the scanner gets ganked by teammates or the scanned individual reports what happened.
Like, the only reason forcibly scanning us to help enforce compliance works is that there's already a massive imbalance of power at work. That's not true vs other clans.
We've asked about that before.
It's less "How many favours?" and more "The second Yagura finds out we joined Leaf he will declare war. Are we worth it?".
The answer turned out to be somewhere in the region between "We're all jonin." to "We're all S-Rank.".
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Or "we have such useful seals and techniques that we're willing to share that it would trivialize warfare", such as mass transport seals, because let's be honest, if we figure that out, it's literally priceless.
- Location
- Yes.
So...reinvent Hiraishin?
That's not something she had because she scanned us though, that's just ordinary manipulation.
Ninja go outside to do ninja stuff regardless of what the Yamanaka do. As we ourselves have experienced, running into other ninja on missions is a common occurrence.
Surely you don't expect Jiraya to spend much of his time manipulating us?
Responding to positive impressions with murder is possible, but it sounds very maladaptive in other areas. Groups of ninja who are capable of having alliances sound much longer lived.
Then incapacitate them, scan them and let them go. Whatever. My point is that it's easy for the Yamanaka to scan large numbers of weak, surviving ninja and this is unlikely to draw reprisal from the targets as long as there are other groups attacking ninja and killing them. If all they can get out of this is clan secrets, that's fine because low ranking ninja don't know much anyway. If they get persistent easy manipulation, then the Yamanaka can subvert any group of ninja by waiting for the ones too powerful to grab to die off.
I'm not talking about scanning people to enforce compliance, I'm objecting to the claim by @MadScientist that Jiraya having us scanned will allow him to manipulate us so easily that every further interaction with him must be assumed to be in bad faith. My objection is that if the Yamanaka were that effective from a single scan, they'd be much more influential then observed. Therefore, they cannot.
Running into specific ninja on missions is pretty rare. How many times have we run into a Yamanaka that wasn't specifically there to mindscan us?
I expect a Jiraiya who knows the contents of our brains to be able to effectively manipulate us every time we meet him, and reinforce previous manipulations, yes.
Responding to one positive impression with murder would be maladaptive. Responding to repeated eerily similar postive impressions which occured in suspicious circumstances (Hey! I sent you to fight those guys! What gives? / Hey! You've supposedly never met those guys! What gives?) with murder, not so much.
- Location
- Europe
Keiko gets her next level of chakra boosting at Weapons 21, so I would improve some of her other skills before that. For example Deal Making, Stealth, Transformation, Awareness and even Capacity (she will still pass out if she tries to summon a level 10 pangolin without Nobby) would be higher on my list.