A valid take. The past wars were full of lulls in the fighting it seems this one is no different.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Washington, USA
MY bias? It's true that the coconuts and papaya and preindustrial metalworking aren't all that strategically relevant, but we definitely care about the ninja who've been keeping chakra-beast populations under control on that island, as evidenced by the very fact that their collective chakra generation capacity is worth the trouble to steal.
So, per Maxim 21 The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries - Ovalkwiki next time we need a bigger Zoo Rush than Leaf's mid-rankers can provide on their own - and let's be honest, only way there won't be a "next time" is if the Seventh Path gets destroyed, since IC strategic alliances and OOC xp stagnation ensure that 'fair fights' will inevitably re-emerge - is Moon still going to be there, willing to serve as batteries in exchange for fair payment, because that worked out reasonably well for them before? Or will they be with Isan, and extinction that much closer?
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Do you honestly think there is any universe in which they consent to this? They'd be placing themselves utterly in our power, a force that is known to contain Orochimaru.
I cannot imagine a situation in which they'd ever willingly consent to "trade" themselves in that way. Not once, and certainly not twice! They'd be insane to accept that, and so accept it they won't.
I misunderstood your meaning of "trade" because I could not imagine a ninja that would willing consent to be drained of chakra around Orochimaru. At least if they scatter some of them might get away/force us to kill them/deny us what we want. That would be a better fate.
Ultimately they will just never trust us enough to consent to this. That underlines ever single interaction we will ever have with them it will always be the threat of force compelling them. They will always defect if they can.
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- Europe
Well technically Isan did consent to help while Oro was there, but they also had Arikada.
And if none of our new Ninja talk about Naruto wanting to go down the diplomacy route, than the chances are getting pretty slim.
(Yeah, Naruto is a macho and doesn't care, he wants Akatsuki dead)
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- Yes.
That and a history of revering summoners, which was a key point to how Orochimaru got sent on that mission in the first place.
Isan didn't know about Orochimaru's reputation. Or at least they hadn't internalized it -- there's no way they would have allowed Arikada sniffing around otherwise. Plus he's a Summoner and they simp for Summoners.
Naruto isn't even here, it's Tsunade's call probably.
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- Washington, USA
Yes, I think it's entirely plausible they would. Mari or Tsunade or Hazo or (in follow-up meetings) Naruto can play "good cop" to Oro's "bad cop."
The idea that nobody would ever willingly live under conditions of needing to constantly appease some terrible force which barely cares and could destroy them on a whim is, as you put it, 21st century bias talking. Consider that practically every civilian in the setting has to deal with that exact same dynamic from any rando ninja, low-rank ninja have to deal with something close from jonin, and jonin from essies. Collections: Practical Polytheism, Part III: Polling the Gods
The current in-setting geopolitical situation, with AMITY enforced by Akatsuki, already de facto puts Moon under the power of a force composed entirely of people who are, by their own leader's description, worse than Orochimaru. Moon didn't "liberty or death" themselves off a cliff over that, because there was a solid chance they'd survive, even prosper, by joining the winning side. We can wave much the same carrot and a bigger stick, let them do it again.
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- Europe
I agree, I highlighted the technically part for that reason, besides us also having established some form of alliance. I am fully in the camp that without some larger "Moon diplomacy" mission they aren't going to agree to work with us.
Oro is scary, so he, Tsunade and Mari could try something. But we don't have the time.
Well he could have given some orders, but nobody brought it up so far, so he wants this to go the "Take Moon, kill Akatsuki"-route.
It's hard to establish trust and we don't have much time. Even super sealing and ninjutsu are hardly going to convince them to sacrifice the number of ninja we need. Plus the possible information leaked.
edit: We also got a number of Isan ninja killed, got a Clan heir displaced and got Kei and Yuno exiled. But we at least had an "offical" agreement and some sort of rapport with them. "Backwater"-Moon has no relation like that to us, quickly negotiating might be feasible if some Leaf (or Leaf alliagned) ninja with good relationions had shown up.
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- Location
- Washington, USA
Not all that much immediate trust is needed Wednesday 15 June 2011 since we're not asking them to do anything complicated, or away from direct supervision. Could propose that a skeleton crew stay behind - kids with half-trained reserves, MSDs who'd be inconvenient to safely transport, and, say... two or three of their top combatants, or however much total chakra capacity adds up to less than would likely have been lost anyway if it came to a fight - with a force dome that can only be shut down from the inside, plus a written contract specifying that Leaf agrees to take full responsibility for any political fallout of the mission, and will pay some extremely generous compensation (relevant individual's own weight in gold, maybe?) for any Moon ninja lost during the mission due to Leaf negligence or enemy action.
That gives them some ability to survive and recover even if the whole away team is never heard from again, and signals that Leaf isn't just going to be using them as frontline cannon fodder. I mean, who even has ten metric tons of gold? Mari can do the devourer-of-lies ritual with some Moon social-spec to confirm force dome performance specs, and she's not just taking Hazo's word for it either - was there when it was first being tested, with the giant sandworm.
If Leaf screws Moon over in any straightforward way, skeleton crew can keep the dome up until a more trusted AMITY representative comes to check on them, then show the contract and demand payment from whatever's left of Leaf. But those staying behind in Moon won't be in much of a position to leak relevant info proactively until it's far too late to be relevant, and would be taking a significant risk even by trying to do so, since the force dome is single-use. Soon as it's shut down, gotta worry about securing their own perimeter again.
Unless Moon has their own cheaty-eyeball bloodline or equivalent, rune OPSEC can be maintained by encasing the force-dome-generating rune in a much larger block of ordinary stone, with only the deactivation contact point accessible through a narrow limb-sized channel. Discourage invasive examination by implying it's naturally barely stable and/or deliberately booby-trapped.
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They have legends about him, based on which Yuno was pretty freaked out, IIRC.
"The Serpent that Consumes That Which it Does Not Understand", etc.
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- Europe
Kei is also the Pangolin Summoner. Which we used for religious actions. And Takahashis student. (Also part of two forbidden clans)
And Noburi is the Toad Summoner who is married to Yuno, the cursed black sheep of the village but also a Gasai born, Kannagi raised (strong) ninja.
Both are also connected to the super cool young Clan head Dog Summoner.
But Orochimaru is so cool.
*kicks stone* Asuma did nothing wrong.
And Noburi is the Toad Summoner who is married to Yuno, the cursed black sheep of the village but also a Gasai born, Kannagi raised (strong) ninja.
Both are also connected to the super cool young Clan head Dog Summoner.
But Orochimaru is so cool.
*kicks stone* Asuma did nothing wrong.
Oro talked about coming to an agreement with hazou on who to resurrect. Jiraiya, Akane, and Hiruzen are one thing. But would he let us resurrect a bunch of other essies who could restrict his actions? Yes leaf would be destroyed in the war without them. But we've seen him willing to risk Leaf destruction via the rift assault. And his goal doesn't even seem to be preventing Pain's resurrection, given his pessimism about resurrecting Jiraiya.
Edit: it would be funny if the rift is not actually afterlife. And the akane jiraiya visions were misinformation by jashin to start a world war. I give low but non-virtual odds.
Edit: it would be funny if the rift is not actually afterlife. And the akane jiraiya visions were misinformation by jashin to start a world war. I give low but non-virtual odds.
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A single ninja escaping to warn Akatsuki at the Rift would be disastrous for us, we've lost if that's the case. So they can harm us an incredible amount if one of them gets away. In turn, we cannot accept risks in this regard. Which means they need to be chakra drained to unconsciousness until the Riftwar is over, without exception. As a considerable understatement, they aren't going to like that.
Even if we were willing to take risks, it's safe to say that, no, we will not be leaving them with access to a Force Dome. Even if we ask them very nicely not to touch it. Orochimaru will kill us on the spot.
Aside from that, it's trivially easy to tunnel under with simple earth justu. So it provides no barrier to us, additionally there's no way in hell they'd consent to trapping themsenves in a strange seal-effect they know nothing about. Complete nonstarter, this is not a serious suggestion. There are bunch of logistical issues with the FDs I'm not going to go into detail over (Mari has never seen one, FDs only last 2 weeks, they themselves can tunnel out to warn Akatsuki etc.) since this is just not an option.
Lastly, a written contract is worth nothing to them, what's stopping Orochimaru from vivisecting them once they donate their chakra? Leaf's sense of honor? Ninja are famous for not being honorable. Another unserious suggestion.
Fundamentally, this all boils down to the fact that they must take our word at face vaule and they won't do that. We have a very predictable reason for lying to them -- to preserve their chakra and keep it from being wasted in the fighting. They would be smart to distrust us, and they will. I don't see any way of negotiating with them that doesn't have uniformly worse outcomes for us.
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- United States
As an aside, their knowledge of the the Sannin predates Isan's contact with Leaf and the outside world. One wonders where they got their information…
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- Yes.
It would not surprise me if Isan's ninja patrols, before killing unfortunate ninja or civilians who happened to stray too close to their path, interrogated them for information on the outside world first.
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- United States
Hmm. I don't remember the exact wording, but when I read Yuno's campfire dialogue I got the sense that they had known for a long time. They were somehow already folk lore, not up to date military intelligence.
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- Yes.
The two quotes I could find for the title Yuno gave Orochimaru (the Serpent that Consumes All It Does Not Understand), but from my interpretation Yuno thinks the Sannin are generalized figures of power than specific figures of power. Yuno comments on how Leaf's population "[don't] know their myths", but that seems more to me like she's astonished people don't know what asuras are in general as opposed to what these specific asuras are.
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- Washington, USA
Did you miss the part about Mari using that ritual which invokes the Devourer of Lies? "Can't trust anything a foreign social-spec ninja says" is a longstanding known problem in the setting, and it has a reliable standard solution.
Zampano
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- Location
- Simping for DSB
This was a Mist religious ritual that relied on their shared history, which was extensive. I give less than 0.01% probability to the chance that the QMs will give any specialty the ability to credibly demonstrate the truth value of their statements in an objective way.
There are so many ways that diplomacy would be handled differently if there was a generalizable "zone of truth" spell.
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- U.S.
Rune of ""Zone of Truth" Spell"
Upon activation, this rune creates a small zone. If a person inside the zone attempts to speak, their voice is selectively muffled or silenced entirely. The degree of muffling is directly proportional to the subjective truth and honesty the speaker attributes to their speech. For instance, deliberate honesty will be full volume, attempts to deceive while saying the factual truth will be muffled, and statements the speaker knows or expects to be false will be unheard.
The rune does not judge actual truth, only the subjective truth of statements. The verbal component of jutsu casting are unaffected, as are utterances that have no intrinsic relation to honesty, non-speech verbalizations, and other forms of communication such as sign language or writing. The Rune tends to affect anything that the speaker recognizes as their attempt to communicate verbally, and so 'clever solutions' like speaking via a jutsu, using a seal that creates speech, communicating through a interpreter, relaying sound from outside the zone, etc will usually fail.
Upon activation, this rune creates a small zone. If a person inside the zone attempts to speak, their voice is selectively muffled or silenced entirely. The degree of muffling is directly proportional to the subjective truth and honesty the speaker attributes to their speech. For instance, deliberate honesty will be full volume, attempts to deceive while saying the factual truth will be muffled, and statements the speaker knows or expects to be false will be unheard.
The rune does not judge actual truth, only the subjective truth of statements. The verbal component of jutsu casting are unaffected, as are utterances that have no intrinsic relation to honesty, non-speech verbalizations, and other forms of communication such as sign language or writing. The Rune tends to affect anything that the speaker recognizes as their attempt to communicate verbally, and so 'clever solutions' like speaking via a jutsu, using a seal that creates speech, communicating through a interpreter, relaying sound from outside the zone, etc will usually fail.
There was a story. Maybe from Isan. About a medical student of death or something. Resurrecting someone, being warned against doing it, and upon the second resurrection suffering consequences. Death or losing their doctor powers or something
@Shrooms 's FtD quest, Stormfall is offering XP incentives for number of unique voters, so I am here to drum up unique voters. The writing is really quite excellent, and the divergence from MfD intriguing.
It's set right at the breakout of WWII, and the tritagonist trio have been sent on a chakra beast extermination missions with their try-hard chunin sensei.
Here's the prologue
For all you build vote fiends there's a build vote happening right now.
Anyway I highly recommend you check it out! And if you do, don't forget to leave a vote.
It's set right at the breakout of WWII, and the tritagonist trio have been sent on a chakra beast extermination missions with their try-hard chunin sensei.
Here's the prologue
For all you build vote fiends there's a build vote happening right now.
Anyway I highly recommend you check it out! And if you do, don't forget to leave a vote.
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- Yes.
If he can't be taught deceit, he would never have gotten Deception 2 (this was the old system).