Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Pulling from @Sir Stompy for rune stuff as I don't know enough to deviate. That said, striking a different tone with Noburi and taking a more granular approach with the Dogs.
[X] Action Plan: Cry Havoc
Word count: <300
Duration: ~1 day
[X] Action Plan: Cry Havoc
Word count: <300
Duration: ~1 day
- Noburi:
- We really wanted him in that tent. Instead, he put his foot in his mouth.
- We're no hypocrite, so we're skipping the dressing-down.
- Advice: treat Orochimaru like Tsunade before her coffee.
- He managed her, he can manage Orochimaru.
- Joking: welcome to the 'I-pissed-off-all-three-Sannin-and-survived' club.
- We really wanted him in that tent. Instead, he put his foot in his mouth.
- Cannai:
- Summon him with Mild overcharge as soon as recovery permits.
- If successful, have him meet the team while Noburi clears the Mild.
- Regardless of success, meet him on the Seventh Path.
- Summon him with Mild overcharge as soon as recovery permits.
- Seventh Path:
- Meet whatever Dogs will see you.
- As appropriate (ask Cannai), appeal to their…
- Sense of honour: the Akatsuki, honourless oathbreakers who turned their backs on their packs, killed Kakashi. Avenge him.
- Sense of pride: emphasize the importance of the fight and their contributions. Their stories will be told forever.
- Sense of practicality: our seals shred Leopards. If we die, the supply dries up. If we win, we can focus on the Leopards and Great Seal.
- Sense of reciprocity: despite the Akatsuki, we've taken the time to run messages. We need a few hours of their time.
- Acknowledge that we're not Kakashi, but point out the most important similarity: our commitment to Dog and the Seventh Path.
- We are Goketsu Hazo - Dog Summoner, runemaster, forger of the Conclave, and Dragonslayer. We need their help.
- Accept refusals politely. We hope to meet again in more peaceful times.
- General:
- Grind runic veterancy whenever possible.
- Prioritize working on one RER 2.0. Invoke/Reroll/Timeladder per Pilot's preference.
- Otherwise, work on Ninja Radar and Force Dome, grinding veterancy until Hazou feels good about a double-timeladdered infusion or chakra runs out.
- If we run out of chakra, send Noburi and a Hazo SC to get some from Orochimaru's test subjects.
- Test how much earth Force Dome's chakra pillar can pierce.
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redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
I dunno if this is me jumping the gun or whatever but we got the surgery, we've got something like a battle plan in place, I really don't want to sit around crossing our t's and dotting our i's when what feels like the climax of the biggest arc in the quest so far is imminent.
I want to see Tsunade. I want to finalize plans. I want to start creeping into position with substrate and the terrifying anxiety of being caught despite our best precautions.
Spending screentime criticizing Noburi or recruiting dogs just feels so... like grinding minor side-quests with useless rewards for that 100% competition score before the final boss fight. It doesn't feel like it'll actually change anything.
I want to see Tsunade. I want to finalize plans. I want to start creeping into position with substrate and the terrifying anxiety of being caught despite our best precautions.
Spending screentime criticizing Noburi or recruiting dogs just feels so... like grinding minor side-quests with useless rewards for that 100% competition score before the final boss fight. It doesn't feel like it'll actually change anything.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
One thing that I think has been overlooked in the recent discussion is that Hazō and the player base are willing to take team uplift suggestions even if they are suboptimal but still workable. We did this when Kagome freaked out about us opening our own rift and suggested that we go to ones he knew about. When dealing with Oro no one offered anything that could be close to workable and then acted like we where unreasonable idiots for making the only choice available
How are they oathbreakers? This is a serious accusation to level on the Seventh Path and not one that IMO is supported by evidence.
Our contributions are on this front are minor at best and probably not particularly worthy of comment.
For the love of God, don't tell them about runes.
- Location
- Somewhere
Ahh wait, I think what I said was misinterpreted! I don't want the characters to be depressed or miserable; that's not the emotion I'm looking for and that certainly wouldn't make me happy. I don't think that's how they should feel at all! Nor is it fun to read for anyone. Rather, I prefer the emotion of resolve through adversity, as coals become diamond.
Let me give an IRL example - hopefully this isn't TMI. I have a very close friend who lived in India, then went to Italy to escape conflict, eventually making his way to Canada. He has gone through more shit than anyone I know. When he was being smuggled he was cramped and trapped, stowing away in a ship with limited oxygen. One of his friends died in that tight space and he was travelling with a corpse.
Oddly enough, this guy is one of the friendliest, most honest hard-working guys I know. He wakes up at 4am to run his dry-cleaning business and prep it, and works til around 8pm every day barring Sunday for reduced hours. In my opinion, that work schedule sucks. He doesn't care, he's honestly happy every day because his perspective is just so different compared to my privileged one. He'll come over, have a drink and help me repair fences or change tires after a long day of work, and somehow have good vibes the entire time.
His store was broken into 2 weeks ago and he was robbed. He was straight up depressed for around a week, but he's resilient as fuck. He bounced back. He's not hiding or covering the depression or anger at being robbed. It's still there. But he also finds a way to be happy or content despite it all. Maybe he's just built different. Anyway, he's way less educated and privileged than I am, but I try to take a lot of my cues from him on how I should live my life.
My intention in sharing his story is highlighting the possibility of other options in response to the current difficulties. Every character should not be high-drama. There's a lot of other realistic emotion that is possible in difficult times other than drama or stress-responses - sometimes, good things can come of pain (lol Pain was right). I'd love to see more of that, personally!
EDIT: And maybe things get worse. Maybe everything collapses and members of TU die. It's okay to mourn and be in pain, but even if the worst happens, I think TU is a group that can handle it in a way that everyone wants to read. Flickering lights hanging on through overwhelming dark. Through their tragedies and hardships, they've trained for this kind of pain and difficulty, in a way. If they back each other up, that's what matters. If their bonds are the non-negotiable, then everything else is secondary. Essentially, I don't think despair, energy-draining thoughts or negativity HAVE to be the response to adversity. That's where the fun comes in.
That said, your own energy levels and that of the QMs comes first. I don't want what I say to gainsay or ignore anything you and the other QMs say or feel. It sounds like you're working with a system that doesn't let you write the way you want with respect to timeskips, research and other stuff, and it's draining or tiring for you. I think it sucks you feel that way. Thanks for giving some insight into your thoughts - I hope it helps everyone get on the same page!
Let me give an IRL example - hopefully this isn't TMI. I have a very close friend who lived in India, then went to Italy to escape conflict, eventually making his way to Canada. He has gone through more shit than anyone I know. When he was being smuggled he was cramped and trapped, stowing away in a ship with limited oxygen. One of his friends died in that tight space and he was travelling with a corpse.
Oddly enough, this guy is one of the friendliest, most honest hard-working guys I know. He wakes up at 4am to run his dry-cleaning business and prep it, and works til around 8pm every day barring Sunday for reduced hours. In my opinion, that work schedule sucks. He doesn't care, he's honestly happy every day because his perspective is just so different compared to my privileged one. He'll come over, have a drink and help me repair fences or change tires after a long day of work, and somehow have good vibes the entire time.
His store was broken into 2 weeks ago and he was robbed. He was straight up depressed for around a week, but he's resilient as fuck. He bounced back. He's not hiding or covering the depression or anger at being robbed. It's still there. But he also finds a way to be happy or content despite it all. Maybe he's just built different. Anyway, he's way less educated and privileged than I am, but I try to take a lot of my cues from him on how I should live my life.
My intention in sharing his story is highlighting the possibility of other options in response to the current difficulties. Every character should not be high-drama. There's a lot of other realistic emotion that is possible in difficult times other than drama or stress-responses - sometimes, good things can come of pain (lol Pain was right). I'd love to see more of that, personally!
EDIT: And maybe things get worse. Maybe everything collapses and members of TU die. It's okay to mourn and be in pain, but even if the worst happens, I think TU is a group that can handle it in a way that everyone wants to read. Flickering lights hanging on through overwhelming dark. Through their tragedies and hardships, they've trained for this kind of pain and difficulty, in a way. If they back each other up, that's what matters. If their bonds are the non-negotiable, then everything else is secondary. Essentially, I don't think despair, energy-draining thoughts or negativity HAVE to be the response to adversity. That's where the fun comes in.
That said, your own energy levels and that of the QMs comes first. I don't want what I say to gainsay or ignore anything you and the other QMs say or feel. It sounds like you're working with a system that doesn't let you write the way you want with respect to timeskips, research and other stuff, and it's draining or tiring for you. I think it sucks you feel that way. Thanks for giving some insight into your thoughts - I hope it helps everyone get on the same page!
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- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
They're all missing-nin. I'm pretty sure when you graduate the Academy they make you promise to stay loyal until death.
Arguably this is null and void as they did die but not in service of their villages.
Fair enough, I'll pare it down to the Great Seal stuff.
So, if we're going to tell them that we're going to fix the Great Seal they're going to know that we can do something with 3D seals. Best to just leave it at that, I guess?
We went missing too. This is going to get us laughed out of the conversation.
1) We tell them that Akatsuki are oathbreakers
2) The Dogs ask us what oaths they broke
3) We say "oh they went missing"
4) The Dogs say "didn't you go missing?"
5) Hazou: Ummmmm uhhhhhh ....shit
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Mist? We were tricked. If our Alpha (Yagura) had any honour, he would have accepted that and welcomed us back with open arms, but he didn't, so we had to run.
Leaf? If Cannai tells you to leave your pack and you leave, you didn't abandon your pack, you obeyed your Alpha.
The Akatsuki ran, intentionally breaking faith. Every time they've returned to their home villages, they've brought chaos and destruction. Sasori flattened Sand so they could yoink Gaara. Itachi oversaw the extortion of Leaf. I'm happy to bet the others have pretty similar stories.
I can specify it further as there's currently room for interpretation, but I fundamentally disagree with your characterization.
It's a weak argument, oathbreaking is oathbreaking and extenuating circumstances don't count.
This is a terrible argument to make to Dogs as to why they should oppose Akatsuki. Just don't make it.
Talk about avenging Kakashi instead, this will just distract and confuse the Dogs and muddles our overall message.
Spector29
It Only Gets Worse From Here
Do...you think we're going to succeed? It feels like there's been a tonal mismatch between how the players are modelling the situation and how we perceive the QMs to be (which I don't think is news at this point), but I'd like to ask you straightforwardly: Do you think we've got anything more likely than a snowball's chance in hell at a happy ending? I don't mean to parse into QM secrets about the upcoming difficulty of our opponents, I mean this question purely on the vibes. I feel like more straightforward conversations between players and QMs would be a great thing. Heck, EJ asking for somebody to make a statement in the Discord is what kicked off everything now, and everyone seems to appreciate the different perspectives on offer.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Eh, it saves me some words for elsewhere so I guess.
I think recruiting dogs is likely to be mechanically meaningful because it's not going to just happen off-screen. I agree that I'd like to get to the big stuff but we really need the deck stacked here.
As far as Noburi goes, I'd like it to be a nice character moment - hey, you screwed up, we get it, here's how to avoid it in future. Honestly I'm hoping the QMs take an opportunity to show us that he gets how serious this all is and that this is A Lot.
HAZO: hey man, not cool.
NOBURI: shit, I know.
HAZO: we're obviously not going to harp at you for putting your foot in your mouth in a critical situation because we're a loving and supportive broth-
NOBURI: yeah yeah yeah I get it gloating isn't a good look
HAZO: -er but you're going to have to spend more time around Orochimaru in the next week or two. Treat him like he's Tsunade before she's had her coffee.
NOBURI: ...that actually helps. Thanks.
HAZO: welcome to the 'I pissed off all three Sannin and all I got was this crappy haori' club.
NOBURI: ...how are you making jokes right now?
HAZO: what do you mean?
NOBURI: I'm shitting myself. Orochimaru is a fucking monster. You're going up against some of the baddest motherfuckers in the world with a time bomb inside your chest, and if anything goes wrong you're going to be tortured to death for the stuff you have in your brain. I'm fucking worried, bro, and I'm nowhere near as close to this as you.
HAZO: it's gonna be alright, it's -
NOBURI: don't do that, don't give me Confident Smile #3, don't handle me.
HAZO: okay, yeah, I am scared, I'm really scared, I don't know how any of this is going to play out. But I just don't see any other way. And honestly? Even if it does kill me? I'll know it was for something worthwhile. If we can put the Akatsuki in the dirt, Tsunade and Naruto can probably talk Orochimaru around to reviving Jiraiya, and then...you'll all be safe. He'll need to get back up to speed, but there's finally going to be an adult in the room again.
NOBURI: ...
HAZO: I don't know, it's a lot, and I'm not happy about any of this, but I don't know what else to do because if I don't go all out here, everyone dies, or if they don't die they're not going to belong to themselves any more. And honestly it's getting really hard, because I wish I felt more like you all had my back, but instead when I come to you with stuff I just get shrugs and bewildered looks or you act like I'm stupid or crazy or that I don't know that any of this is dangerous. Of course I know, I'm not stupid or crazy, but - fuck.
NOBURI: I'm really sorry. I knew I should have kept my mouth shut, but he looked at me and I just lost it.
HAZO: it's okay. I know you -
NOBURI: no, it isn't okay. You needed me and I wasn't there. Even when you've screwed up, you've always been there for us, and I wasn't there for you. I'm sorry. You're right - I got through an internship with Tsunade. She wasn't going to gut me if I screwed up, but she probably would have broken every bone in my body. It's not going to happen again.
HAZO: thanks. I appreciate it.
NOBURI: and I believe in you. I don't know if that's more pressure or helpful to hear, but...I think you have a real shot. And whatever comes after, I'll be there. We're going to rip those seals out of you, find Jiraiya, and then get him and Mari in front of Lord Hago-fuckin'-romo as fast as Rocket Boots allow, who will officiate or they're going to need a new clan head. And if you do eat it, shit, I guess that just means we get to be the heroes for a change and pull your ass out of the afterlife. If you can do this whole rune thing, how hard can it be?
HAZO: ...I love you, bro.
NOBURI: I love you, too, bro.
Obviously that ran very long, but I think this is a moment we can actually get some mileage out of in a way that would feel good. Maybe I'm wrong, but...who knows?
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Vibes-wise, I'm pretty sure this battle will be impossible to call in advance, just like the Battle of the Gods (which, if you'll recall, had 50/50 odds in the simulated battles), simply because of how many different kinds of esoteric craziness will be in play. At least, unless there's some particular bit of craziness that obviates the entire battle (e.g. Hazō going, "Screw it" and just Superchilling the entirety of O'Uzu before anyone can stop him, and the Akatsuki onsite not having effective counters).
- Location
- Yes.
[X] EM Nuke Rune O'Uzu
- Location
- Yes.
[X] Action Plan: Cry Havoc
Suggested change: "Sense of honour: the Akatsuki, honourless oathbreakers who tried mind-controlling the packs they betrayed, killed Kakashi. Avenge him."
@FaintlySorcerous I think your plan may benefit from the suggestion I made to Sir Stompy's original plan:
- Noburi:
- Bro, I know you love me, and I know you're stressed, but you cannot go pissing Orochimaru off like that again. We, and you specifically, still need to work with him to fight Akatsuki.
- When we get back to the rest of the team, you need to explain to Mari and Kei what you said so they can figure out what to do.
Might I suggest we emphasize their actions against the world since going missing? Like their mass mind-control ritual? Calling them "honourless oathbreakers who turned their backs on their packs" is a bit redundant, but saying "honourless oathbreakers who attempted to mind-control the packs they betrayed" is more concrete.
Suggested change: "Sense of honour: the Akatsuki, honourless oathbreakers who tried mind-controlling the packs they betrayed, killed Kakashi. Avenge him."
If we want to go for practicality, might I suggest that if we fail here, Akatsuki takes over the Human Path, and since none of their Summoners are devout sealmasters (Itachi is at best Chunin-level at the art) the Great Seal can never be fixed?
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Seriously though, I think we should consider running the Superchiller idea by Orochimaru, using the framing my totally-a-meme-plan-hahaha suggested. I. e., Hazou starts off with an incredibly lossy but not-incorrect summary of "a rune that creates a highly destructive effect if deployed within a Force Dome due to an esoteric interaction" to prime Orochimaru, then honestly describes what they're doing, but in an overly obtuse runecrafting language.
The intent is that this would provoke a Primordial Sealing check (untangling the terminology to understand the nature of the effect Hazou is describing, and that the destructive effect part has nothing to do with "deployed within a Force Dome"), not a Deception check. And we can win the PS check.
The motivation is to convince Orochimaru that the Superchillers only work within a Force Dome and wouldn't have an effect if deployed outside it, which would simultaneously (1) ensure that Orochimaru doesn't try to research these WMDs immediately, (2) ensure Orochimaru doesn't reconsider putting Hazou on his to-kill list.
@Velorien, @eaglejarl, @Paperclipped, any PONWOG on whether you'd actually rule the mechanics this way? On one hand, arguably it should still be a Deception check, just because Hazou is doing Shenanigans and knows it. On the other hand, the narrative justification is that Hazou wouldn't be giving off "I'm being deceptive" signals when explaining any of this, because he'd be earnestly explaining his genuine understanding of how they work – except in a researcher mindset that accesses models of reality which Orochimaru doesn't understand. (Imagine a quantum field theorist excitedly babbling about how the nuclear bomb works, but using QFT language and never bothering to transate the concepts he's using into intuitive macro-scale terms such as "a big explosion", and he's talking to a classical-mechanics physicist who'd only recently studied Quantum Mechanics 101.)
The intent is that this would provoke a Primordial Sealing check (untangling the terminology to understand the nature of the effect Hazou is describing, and that the destructive effect part has nothing to do with "deployed within a Force Dome"), not a Deception check. And we can win the PS check.
The motivation is to convince Orochimaru that the Superchillers only work within a Force Dome and wouldn't have an effect if deployed outside it, which would simultaneously (1) ensure that Orochimaru doesn't try to research these WMDs immediately, (2) ensure Orochimaru doesn't reconsider putting Hazou on his to-kill list.
@Velorien, @eaglejarl, @Paperclipped, any PONWOG on whether you'd actually rule the mechanics this way? On one hand, arguably it should still be a Deception check, just because Hazou is doing Shenanigans and knows it. On the other hand, the narrative justification is that Hazou wouldn't be giving off "I'm being deceptive" signals when explaining any of this, because he'd be earnestly explaining his genuine understanding of how they work – except in a researcher mindset that accesses models of reality which Orochimaru doesn't understand. (Imagine a quantum field theorist excitedly babbling about how the nuclear bomb works, but using QFT language and never bothering to transate the concepts he's using into intuitive macro-scale terms such as "a big explosion", and he's talking to a classical-mechanics physicist who'd only recently studied Quantum Mechanics 101.)
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- Location
- Yes.
If we're going to be using EM Nuke Runes, we shouldn't be bothering with complex deceptions. Just run over and do it. EM Nuke Rune the lot.
- Location
- Yes.
So make more nukes.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
We tried and it's our only one? And if you mean "stack more Superchillers", IMO that's not how it works. Someone who has a way to survive one Superchiller is unlikely to be killed by a second one, because they have some trick that lets them efficiently evade or no-sell them. (It's possible that they'd spend scarce resources to evade Superchiller 1 and won't have them again for evading Superchiller 2, sure, but it's a pretty brittle plan that fails gracelessly and I wouldn't want to rely on it. If they have the resources to evade one, why think they have enough only for one, and not for ten?)
- Location
- Yes.
I would argue that if we put the whole world under a Superchiller they'll die, or at worst be forced permanently into the Seventh Path. Everyone's chakra runs out eventually, even monsters like Kisame.