@_The_Bomb Don't worry the good use of his own words is still in. And yeah basically what FS said, it was a little more precision based than it might immediately appear, with some confusion over wording.

Time would be nice.
 
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This part of planning is always intensely annoying because there's a bunch of people giving me little notes while feeling that they're under time pressure so the quality of the feedback goes way down.

Yeah it's immensely annoying and part of why I tended to do a last call the evening before the voting deadline after a while. You're probably getting hit doubly due to the larger turnout and relatively controversial (at least to some I guess?) nature of the plan. Sympathies.
 
(I apologize for the double post - I want to be able to link this in my signature, so I'm getting the words down while I have them in my brain.)

I try to be responsive to plan feedback! Writing plans can be a lot of fun and they generally get better with suggestions. Having done this for a while, I've become aware of things (listed below) which make me likelier to implement requests and suggestions. All of the listed recommendations should be possible to incorporate in your suggestion or request regardless of what it is.
  • Make a clear effort to engage in good faith - be polite, and talk about plan elements you like.
  • Vote for my plan while making the suggestion, or clearly outline what the requirements for your vote are.
  • Make all your suggestions/requests in one post - back-and-forths can be frustrating.
  • Clearly explain the motivation for your request - be more detailed than you think necessary, or look over your suggestion and ask if you've left any assumptions as subtext/unwritten.
    • More specifically, if you disagree with something I have in the plan, please try to explain what chain of logic you believe led me to include it in the plan, and why you think the reasoning is flawed or suboptimal. (This way, I either know why we disagree, or I can clarify anything that's being miscommunicated.)
    • Ask questions about my intentions instead of assuming them. What you read may be distinct from what I intend to communicate, and being told that problem is entirely on my end is frustrating.
  • Give me suggested phrasing which keeps the plan under wordcount, and do a grammar/spelling/style check of the plan.
    • My gold standard for this is that you quote my plan and makes the changes inline in a different colour. (Feel free to use strikethrough etc., but text diff tools abound.) This makes it very, very easy to copy and paste the changes, instead of needing to copy the individual change, find it, paste it in, etc. etc.
  • Give me suggested phrasing which will explain the motivation of the addition to the QMs in the plan (i.e. 'ask Gaku to X' should be 'tell Gaku we wish to accomplish Y, so we want him to do X', as this both gives Gaku room to accomplish our goal and adds context for the QMs).
None of those are necessary. I am categorically not saying that I'm going to ignore suggestions that don't come with votes or suggested phrasing or anything else. However, if you do those things, I'll be predisposed to incorporate your idea. I will note that I'm not guaranteeing that I'll make the changes if you do all those things, but it will help.

Please feel free to fork my plans if you have large changes you want to make; ideally I'd like you to link my plan if you're copying a significant chunk of it verbatim. Go ahead and fork them for minor changes, too, but if it's a good enough suggestion I might just absorb it.

Finally, please stop and take a moment to consider whether or not your suggestion is antithetical to the core of my plan. If my plan is something like 'talk to Noburi and then go train with Akane' and what you're saying sums to 'talking with Noburi is a bad idea and I think that training with Akane is a waste of time', that is less an actionable suggestion and more a request that I take my plan down. Sometimes that might be the best thing to do - I've written some bad plans! But in general, if I've gone to the time and effort to write a plan, I sat down and thought about it. I like to think that I'm sufficiently thoughtful and intelligent that any plan I've written will represent a course of action with at least some merit. A comment to the tune of 'your plan is fundamentally bad' is deflating even when it's true and delivered kindly...and my experience is it's rarely delivered kindly. I've generally found little good comes from internet conversations which consist of going back and forth over fundamental value disagreements. I encourage you to post your own plan or talk about the merits of your ideas, but if you can do it without intimating that my plan has no value, I'd appreciate it.
Ah, apologies @FaintlySorcerous. Those words about cut segments were ill thought out and hastily made, and I retract them. The intention was to leave a comment about brevity, which appears I was also wrong about.

I am sorry for what I said earlier. I will give the plan's new changes the thorough read that they deserve and, if relevant, give feedback later this evening. And I will do all my feedback in the form you articulated above. Apologies again for the earlier message.
 
Will he swear an oath to do us no harm in front of Snakes?
Can you edit this to something like:

  • Will he swear an oath to do us no harm compared to the counterfactual Hazou that does not undergo this surgery in front of Snakes?

I don't want to ask him to swear off hurting Hazou forever, in exchange for nothing. Which is what this sounds like. If you want him to do that, I think we need to swear off interfering with him in turn.

Can we add something like,
  • Are there additional assurances he'd be willing to make so that we can feel confident he's not planning to use this surgery to compromise Hazou's agency in some way in the future?
Just leaving things more open ended than oath to "Snakes or nothing"
 
Conditional on him offering some assurance, accept the seals.
  • If he refuses, reveal that we have one or more deadman switches in place in case of his betrayal. Refuse to discuss their specifics. Accept the seals.
  • Cowardice and ambition are incompatible. We want both the Akatsuki and death defeated.
Suggest we add this:
  • If it seems safe for Noburi, contact him and tell him come to the surgery so he can help Orochimaru make substrate
  • On that note, suggest that he keep Hazou conscious through the surgery so that Hazou's SCs can get additional veterancy grinding in.
  • Yes, we're serious
Suggest adding this bulletpoint:
  • Offer to have Noburi assist the surgery (precheck this with Noburi) Tsunade helped him develop techniques using his bloodline to soothe human systems, seems potentially useful for this surgery.
 
  • We're alltaking huge risks. This is ours.
    • Besides, the rift means self-sacrifice isn't as permanent as it used to be.
    • Once we win, Hazou can die-and-revive to remove all bioseals.
  • We love you.
Suggested additions in bold.


This seems like a good idea to inject into the discussion, and I think bringing it up will make our family freak out so much less, and generally be much better for our relationships.
 
Suggested additions in bold.


This seems like a good idea to inject into the discussion, and I think bringing it up will make our family freak out so much less, and generally be much better for our relationships.
I think this is lunacy tbh. It's an option....sure, but it's a bad option.

We don't know how death affects people and it might be the case that he's dropped into the afterlife hundreds or thousands of miles away from the Rift.

If Orochimaru actually kills Hazou, then we talk about this. As it stands, I would never vote for it.
 
Can you edit this to something like:

  • Will he swear an oath to do us no harm compared to the counterfactual Hazou that does not undergo this surgery in front of Snakes?

I don't want to ask him to swear off hurting Hazou forever, in exchange for nothing. Which is what this sounds like. If you want him to do that, I think we need to swear off interfering with him in turn.
I'd push against this, actually: I don't think Snakes are competent enough at biosealing to know if Orochimaru did something nefarious. Unless I am missing the intent?
Can we add something like,
  • Are there additional assurances he'd be willing to make so that we can feel confident he's not planning to use this surgery to compromise Hazou's agency in some way in the future?
Just leaving things more open ended than oath to "Snakes or nothing"
This isn't bad, though adding a Tsunade section would also suffice.
Suggested additions in bold.


This seems like a good idea to inject into the discussion, and I think bringing it up will make our family freak out so much less, and generally be much better for our relationships.
I would disagree, as it makes Hazou a bit too flippant on the risks of the surgery. Keep in mind that Hazou would need to survive the surgery, the attack on the rift, and the interim needed to open the rift. And Orochimaru's possibly-inevitable betrayal.
 
How would the snakes actually know if Orochimaru actually betrayed us? If Oro betrayed us and the Snakes knew, how incentivised are the Snakes to actually punish Oro? Do we want the failsafes to activate if Hazo dies of genuinely non-Oro caused events?
 
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Can you edit this to something like:

  • Will he swear an oath to do us no harm compared to the counterfactual Hazou that does not undergo this surgery in front of Snakes?

I don't want to ask him to swear off hurting Hazou forever, in exchange for nothing. Which is what this sounds like. If you want him to do that, I think we need to swear off interfering with him in turn.

Can we add something like,
  • Are there additional assurances he'd be willing to make so that we can feel confident he's not planning to use this surgery to compromise Hazou's agency in some way in the future?
Just leaving things more open ended than oath to "Snakes or nothing"
Yes to both. Won't edit now because I'm on mobile.
Suggest we add this:
  • If it seems safe for Noburi, contact him and tell him come to the surgery so he can help Orochimaru make substrate

Suggest adding this bulletpoint:
  • Offer to have Noburi assist the surgery (precheck this with Noburi) Tsunade helped him develop techniques using his bloodline to soothe human systems, seems potentially useful for this surgery.
It won't seem safe to Noburi - can you workshop the wording? I agree I don't want to delay things.

I'm iffy on offering Noburi as an assistant. People who aren't Hazo piss Orochimaru off. Might ask Noburi if he'd like to attend.
Suggested additions in bold.


This seems like a good idea to inject into the discussion, and I think bringing it up will make our family freak out so much less, and generally be much better for our relationships.
I don't necessarily disagree but it doesn't hit the tone I want. We're not trying to persuade them death isn't so bad, we're telling them it's worth it.
 
I'd push against this, actually: I don't think Snakes are competent enough at biosealing to know if Orochimaru did something nefarious. Unless I am missing the intent?

How would the snakes actually know if Orochimaru actually betrayed us? If Oro betrayed us and the Snakes knew, how incentivised are the Snakes to actually punish Oro? Do we want the failsafes to activate if Hazo dies of genuinely non-Oro caused events?
We have plenty of Summoners in the family to tell them. Sorry I thought that was obvious, but maybe it needs workshopping.
 
We have plenty of Summoners in the family to tell them. Sorry I thought that was obvious, but maybe it needs workshopping.
Sorry, am still confused. Your suggestion involves Hazou undergoing surgery via Orochimaru in the presence of Snakes; however, to my knowledge there are no Snakes sufficiently skilled in biosealing that they could detect malicious intent by Orochimaru. What, then, is the purpose of them watching the surgery?
 
To be honest guys, I think if Oro felt we were a genuine danger in terms of Runecrafting and all I think he would just kill us, take all the hits we prepared against being betrayed and whatnot.

Like if I was Oro and knew about Hazo's role with the EM nukes I'd totally kill Hazo, no way I'd be safe with Hazo around in even the mid term.
 
It won't seem safe to Noburi - can you workshop the wording? I agree I don't want to delay things.

I'm iffy on offering Noburi as an assistant. People who aren't Hazo piss Orochimaru off. Might ask Noburi if he'd like to attend
What's the objection to the wording? I just mean that if Orochimaru has refused all compromise and we're threatening him at dead man's switchpoint that we probably don't want to get Noburi this moment.

Something like "if the meeting is in a cooperative mood" ???

I realize you don't fuck with the mechanics but Noburi's recent bloodline stunts are specifically designed to 1) soothe the chakra system and 2) provide a *massive* bonus that can be passed -- +2 AB

Noburi knows how to assist with surgery from Tsunade, she trained him. In this specific context, he won't piss Orochimaru off (I don't think)
 
might be the case that he's dropped into the afterlife hundreds or thousands of miles away from the Rift.
Unlikely, given that Daizen died midair near one end of the rift and appeared midair near the other. Still, this is very easy to test with some random cultist.

If Orochimaru actually kills Hazou, then we talk about this.
If Hazou gets killed.... only then would you maybe consider using our hard-earned resurrection?
What else are you gonna do, just leave him dead :p

Keep in mind that Hazou would need to survive the surgery, the attack on the rift, and the interim needed to open the rift. And Orochimaru's possibly-inevitable betrayal.
?
If Hazou acidentaly dies earlier than we want, just resurect him. Easy. Mission complete.

Unless Oro outright betrays Leaf and runs off with the rift, resurrecting Hazou its probably easy, and one of Leafs main strategic objectives.
 
Sorry, am still confused. Your suggestion involves Hazou undergoing surgery via Orochimaru in the presence of Snakes; however, to my knowledge there are no Snakes sufficiently skilled in biosealing that they could detect malicious intent by Orochimaru. What, then, is the purpose of them watching the surgery?
Oh it's a "let's eat(,) Grandma" issue, the oath is supposed to be sworn in front of Snakes.
 
If Hazou gets killed.... only then would you maybe consider using our hard-earned resurrection?
What else are you gonna do, just leave him dead :p
I plan to research and implement dimensional anchors in Naraka so that we can open multiple Rifts to the afterlife, if Hazou is killed he only has to make it to one of those anchors and go through the portal. No point in telling this to anyone yet but we should have some redundancy after getting Hazou into Naraka.
 
Oh, I see. Then I might suggest that we don't include the counterfactual since it might annoy Orochimaru. A rewording might look like:
  • Will he swear an oath in front of Snakes to not intend for the surgery to cause us harm or compromise our agency?
Does this seem reasonable?
Bold edit

But also, why would that annoy Orochimaru? Does he not fuck with game theory?
 
[X] Action Plan: Negotiating as Men
Word count: <300
    • Will he swear an oath to do us no harm in front of Snakes?
This has been mentioned by others, but I have a specific wording suggestion: "Swear an oath not to betray us". 'Betray' is more specific than 'no harm', avoiding any issues with asking Oro to make a broad oath of indefinite length in our favor. It's also simple and concise.
 
Unlikely, given that Daizen died midair near one end of the rift and appeared midair near the other. Still, this is very easy to test with some random cultist.
Counter-hypothesis: the destination is usually uncorrelated with the death point. Jashin, actively interfering that chapter (as Hidan believes), placed Daizen there to complete his goal of signalling to Hazou and Hidan that the land on the other side of the rift is indeed the afterlife.

Both hypotheses I find plausible, neither of them I find overwhelmingly compelling. I agree that we should test it once we have the rift, but for now we must act as if we may or may not appear close to our death point.
 
Bold edit

But also, why would that annoy Orochimaru? Does he not fuck with game theory?
I'd argue the edit falls under causing us harm, but either/or.

The part I took out, "compared to the counterfactual Hazou that does not undergo this surgery", feels like it unnecessarily complicates what should be a simple oath (don't use this surgery to harm Hazou), and my read of Orochimaru says that this will annoy him.

EDIT: Actually, Buggy makes the good point of using "betray" rather than "harm".
 
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But also, why would that annoy Orochimaru? Does he not fuck with game theory?
IMO, if I were Orochimaru and used to being vastly more powerful than my interlocutors, my response to someone talking game theory at me would either be "this is homologous to social modelling, which I hate doing, so I'm annoyed now" or "this person is talking to me as if they know more than me about this topic, I'm annoyed now" or "how dare this person try to manipulate me with their flawed understanding of game theory, I'm annoyed now" depending on how much understanding of game theory I had. There's a middle ground where we hit Orochimaru with an argument that perfectly fits his worldview, but it's probably very difficult to predict in advance.
 
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