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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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FaintlySorcerous said:
I think this would be interesting to read, not offend Orochimaru, and it still has us accept the bioseals.

[X] Action Plan: Negotiating as Men
Word count: <300
  • Uplift
    • Hidan's blood-sensing range beats our runes' ranges. Without a bioseal, Rune infusion isn't viable. Five villages almost lost last time: failure's guaranteed without every single advantage.
      • We don't see any other way. The Akatsuki are an existential threat. We can't bank on Hidan's absence. An extra seal incurs no extra risk but secures Cannai.
      • We're not just rolling over and dying.
        • Stress-test the 'Orochimaru' section with everyone. Logic and consistency with Kei/Snowflake, tone and pacing with Mari.
    • We're all taking huge risks. This is ours.
    • We love you.
  • Preparation:
    • Uplift holes up somewhere and doesn't return until Hazo gives the all-clear. If we don't signal in a few hours, we're dead or compromised.
    • We'd welcome Toad/Pangolin/Arachnid escorts and witnesses.
    • Privately to Mari: if we don't come back, you know what to do.
  • Orochimaru:
    • Arrive as Prime.
    • Tone:
      • Respectful but firm. Negotiating as men, not quibbling over details.
      • Motivated by rational self-preservation: not unthinking fear or morality. We're agents with misaligned goals, not volatile humans.
    • His bioseals represent tactical advantages and strategic risks.
      • Presently, we're a runecrafting-infosec risk and Rift access competitor. Eventually, as a runemaster we may grow to threaten him.
      • He could implant a delayed-action kill-switch into us, alongside the other bioseals, or give us a lethal disease. This is arguably optimal for him after the Akatsuki are defeated.
    • Will he swear an oath to do us no harm in front of Summons?
    • Alternatively, are there rational arguments we can verify against his implanting malignant seals in us?
    • Conditional on him offering some assurance, accept the seals.
      • If he refuses, reveal that we have one or more deadman switches in place in case of his betrayal. Refuse to discuss their specifics. Accept the seals.
      • Cowardice and ambition are incompatible. We want both the Akatsuki and death defeated.
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I feel like this plan really took a step back from when I voted last night.

It no longer has Orochimaru swear anything in front of his own Summons (which are much more important to him). It no longer suggests him swearing something in front of Tsunade.

These are vitally important things for him not to install bioseals.

I really do not like the direction this plan is taken and I don't think this is an acceptable level of editing.
 
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@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Are any of Hazou's runes difficult enough that he wants to grind veterancy before timeladdering them up twice on the infusion and once on the ES? RER 2.0 of course

Most of the attack runes are Easy he's probably fine with those, but Force Domes are Medium, he might want some veterancy there.

A full list would be:

Air Leadening, Icarus, Force Dome, Iron Earth, Ninja Radar.
 
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Sir Stompy said:
I feel like this plan really took a step back from when I voted last night.

It no longer has Orochimaru swear anything in front of his own Summons (which are much more important to him). It no longer suggests him swearing something in front of Tsunade.

These are vitally important things for him not to install bioseals.

I really do not like the direction this plan is taken and I don't think this is an acceptable level of editing.
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Thanks for the warning. Removing my vote for the plan. That's a surprisingly big change to do unannounced.
 
I think that @Noumero 's plans are the better option right now and I encourage everyone to read the current state of the plans and revote for your preferred choice, and only your preferred choice.

This is a big deal
 
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I'm not sure, but I don't think there's much value in outside summon witnesses, doesn't hurt to run by the team, anyway. I do think there's value specifying an oath in front of his summons. I think there's value in trying to keep our checks as simple as possible, respecting both his time and the haste the situation demands, and avoiding annoying him.

I definitely think there's no value in trying to use a Tsunade verification in this one.

Still alright with it in the current stage. Still alright with Noumero's though too. Both.

Ultimately I think we have to accept, even just at his given word. So I'd skip most of this except maybe the deadman's switch? We don't want to appear completely foolish. Edit: And even then, keep the tone casual, as if this is banal procedure

Of course, I'd accept his given word that he won't at face value.
 
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Sir Stompy said:
It no longer has Orochimaru swear anything in front of his own Summons (which are much more important to him).
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Fwiw the intention was never to remove the Snakes but wording is hard.

Updated to remove Summon escorts and be explicit about Snakes.
Sir Stompy said:
It no longer suggests him swearing something in front of Tsunade.
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He isn't going to wait for her to do the surgery and it makes us look weak to ask. There's no need to ask him if she could detect malicious seals: we can just ask her.

(We discussed this on discord and you agreed AFAIK.)

Does this restore your faith in the plan?
T_of_A said:
Thanks for the warning. Removing my vote for the plan. That's a surprisingly big change to do unannounced.
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See above, same question.
 
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@FaintlySorcerous I'm not going to unvote your plan if you don't do this, but I would prefer if Tsunade was brought up in the context of Orochimaru swearing to her in the Seventh Path (either before or after the surgery).

@Sir Stompy Would doing this, even if not in front of Hazou, alleviate your concerns regarding involving Tsunade?
 
Current status of votes

Adhoc vote count started by RandomOTP on Dec 14, 2024 at 11:09 AM, finished with 291 posts and 33 votes.
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Sir Stompy said:
Are any of Hazou's runes difficult enough that he wants to grind veterancy before timeladdering them up twice on the infusion and once on the ES? RER 2.0 of course
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Curiously, due to Hazou's lower Primordial Sealing AB, he is more easily able to move up the time-ladder than for Sealing. Recall that the AB penalty for time-laddering up for seal/rune infusion is tripled. Therefore, we get:
  • For Earthshaping:
    • Default roll is at 50.
    • Time-laddered up roll is at 44.
  • For Primordial Sealing:
    • Default roll is at 66.
    • Time-laddered up 1x roll is at 51.
    • Time-laddered up 2x roll is at 36.

Sir Stompy said:
Air Leadening, Icarus, Force Dome, Iron Earth, Ninja Radar.
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So, going through these runes one by one...
  • Air Leadening (Easy)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Fine to time-ladder up 1x.
  • Icarus (Easy)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Fine to time-ladder up 1x.
  • Force Dome (Medium)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Not willing to time-ladder up without additional veterancy.
  • Iron Earth (Easy)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Fine to time-ladder up 2x.
  • Ninja-Radar (Medium)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Not willing to time-ladder up without additional veterancy.
 
faflec said:
@FaintlySorcerous I'm not going to unvote your plan if you don't do this, but I would prefer if Tsunade was brought up in the context of Orochimaru swearing to her in the Seventh Path (either before or after the surgery).
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@FaintlySorcerous , seconding this. I know you're pushing word-count if you treat 299 as the limit, but the plan lasts less than a day, I think it's fine to forgo the brevity bonus in favour of a more detailed plan.

I'll also note that I thought the section below from your original plan was really nicely phrased:
We trust his honour, but his honour did not prevent him from threatening us or our sister when he was our guest and stood to gain far less.
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In that it makes clear that we trust him to be honourable according to his own definition, but we don't know if that includes not planting kill switches in us (or if his honour is meant to include that, guilt-trips him about it or at least gives a concrete example to use as a reference for why that was fine but kill-switches wouldn't be). Any particular reason that got cut?
 
Paperclipped said:
Curiously, due to Hazou's lower Primordial Sealing AB, he is more easily able to move up the time-ladder than for Sealing. Recall that the AB penalty for time-laddering up for seal/rune infusion is tripled. Therefore, we get:
  • For Earthshaping:
    • Default roll is at 50.
    • Time-laddered up roll is at 44.
  • For Primordial Sealing:
    • Default roll is at 66.
    • Time-laddered up 1x roll is at 51.
    • Time-laddered up 2x roll is at 36.


So, going through these runes one by one...
  • Air Leadening (Easy)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Fine to time-ladder up 1x.
  • Icarus (Easy)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Fine to time-ladder up 1x.
  • Force Dome (Medium)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Not willing to time-ladder up without additional veterancy.
  • Iron Earth (Easy)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Fine to time-ladder up 2x.
  • Ninja-Radar (Medium)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Not willing to time-ladder up without additional veterancy.
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@FaintlySorcerous I suggest that we suggest Oro keep Hazou conscious during the surgery so we can grind an additional day of veterancy
 
Kyreneryk said:
Any particular reason that got cut?
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Two reasons:

'we trust your honour but' sucks pretty hard no matter what comes next.

And I don't really want to remind him about that entire incident, especially the part where we then wimped out and had Tsunade compel an oath from him. Same reason I'm not bringing up his previous oath: it was obvious he resented the entire process.

Asking him to swear in front of Tsunade is the same thing all over again. Asking him to swear in front of the Snakes is about his personal honour, not 'you'll get your ass beat if you don't play nice'.
 
Paperclipped said:
  • Air Leadening (Easy)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Fine to time-ladder up 1x.
  • Icarus (Easy)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Fine to time-ladder up 1x.
  • Force Dome (Medium)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Not willing to time-ladder up without additional veterancy.
  • Iron Earth (Easy)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Fine to time-ladder up 2x.
  • Ninja-Radar (Medium)
    • ES: Fine to time-ladder up.
    • PS: Not willing to time-ladder up without additional veterancy.
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tl;dr:
  • Rune blank creation can be accelerated from "12 hours" to "a few hours".
  • Air Leadening and Icarus infusion can be accelerated from "1 hour" to "30 min".
  • Iron Earth can be accleerated from "1 hour" to 10 minutes".
  • Force Dome and Ninja-Radar infusion cannot be accelerated; they must take "1 hour".
 
Kyreneryk said:
@FaintlySorcerous , seconding this. I know you're pushing word-count if you treat 299 as the limit, but the plan lasts less than a day, I think it's fine to forgo the brevity bonus in favour of a more detailed plan.

I'll also note that I thought the section below from your original plan was really nicely phrased:

In that it makes clear that we trust him to be honourable according to his own definition, but we don't know if that includes not planting kill switches in us (or if his honour is meant to include that, guilt-trips him about it or at least gives a concrete example to use as a reference for why that was fine but kill-switches wouldn't be). Any particular reason that got cut?
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@FaintlySorcerous, it appears you cut out a lot of that was popular. I haven't looked at it yet, but I suspect the end segment that I liked so much is also going to be gone.

I don't have more than a minute right now and can't give advice on specific changes, but as a general rule of thumb please just go above 299. Tweaking words is fine, adding new segments that take you above the brevity bonus is fine, making minor deletions is also fine. This is a super important plan that lasts less than a day. Please just forget about brevity and focus on getting everything right.

By the way, @eaglejarl, would it be possible to have a six hour extension on voting? There's some recent confusion and modification. I think the thread would really appreciate some more time right now.
 
_The_Bomb said:
I don't have more than a minute right now and can't give advice on specific changes, but as a general rule of thumb please just go above 299. Tweaking words is fine, adding new segments that take you above the brevity bonus is fine, making minor deletions is also fine. This is a super important plan that lasts less than a day. Please just forget about brevity and focus on getting everything right
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@FaintlySorcerous I don't care about word count for this plan. Go to 599 if it helps get tone and content across better. This one is important
_The_Bomb said:
By the way, @eaglejarl, would it be possible to have a six hour extension on voting? There's some recent confusion and modification. I think the thread would really appreciate some more time right now
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@eaglejarl seconded, this is a really tough one to get right and I think we're still benefitting a lot from discussion.
 
I'm not and have never been concerned about wordcount for this.

I'm happy to take feedback but 'I haven't read the plan but I'm concerned a part I like might be gone' is the opposite of helpful and leaves me very reluctant to engage with someone in the future.

Everything that got cut was cut quite intentionally. It was either unpopular or a bad idea. There was a miscommunication (Summons vs Snakes) and a last-minute change (bring a coterie of Summons) was actually *reverted*.

This part of planning is always intensely annoying because there's a bunch of people giving me little notes while feeling that they're under time pressure so the quality of the feedback goes way down. I am now formally committing to ignoring feedback which does not align with the principles linked in my signature because I don't see any other way to make this tolerable. The bar that's described in my signature is extremely low but it must be cleared.
 
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