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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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[X] Action Plan: Negotiating as Men
[X] Action Plan: Get the Bioseal, Already
[x] Action Plan: Snuncle Warcrimes Experiences the Consequences of His Actions


FaintlySorcerous said:
Are they compatible with our plans (reviving Jiraiya)?
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Can we be full cards on the table and add "and Akane?
CitizenTen said:
I'm the Clan Head, bitch.
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I'm not the Clan Head, I'm a fucking missing-nin. More succinctly, I am not willing to order others to commit suicide like this. Also, Kagome won't agree and giving orders that your underlings won't follow is a chump move.
 
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CitizenTen said:
We should order Kei and Kagmone to get the bioseals as well. If we're gonna do the bioseal, we might as well go all in.
@FaintlySorcerous @Noumero

Frankly, we should give it to Mari, Noburi, and Yuno as well.
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I don't believe in giving orders that we know will not be obeyed. Kagome is not going to get a bioseal, and he would die before he got a bioseal from Orochimaru.

I'm not going to try to infringe on Kei's agency, especially not in a way that will make our comrades suspect that Orochimaru compromised us via Shadow Clone.
 
Rafin said:
I'm not the Clan Head, I'm a fucking missing-nin. More succinctly, I am not willing to order others to commit suicide like this. Also, Kagome won't agree and giving orders that your underlings won't follow is a chump move
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Meh. Not really the point. Legal technicalities aren't why people follow orders. But we should order them anyway. Even if they disobey it shows we're dead serious about it. And we should push them to obey. Either we're all on the same team, and we're all pulling hard in the same direction or we're not. "Disagree and commit" as they say.


FaintlySorcerous said:
I don't believe in giving orders that we know will not be obeyed. Kagome is not going to get a bioseal, and he would die before he got a bioseal from Orochimaru.

I'm not going to try to infringe on Kei's agency, especially not in a way that will make our comrades suspect that Orochimaru compromised us via Shadow Clone.
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Either we think Akasuki is dangerous enough that we have to risk everything (bioseal) to win and "Kei's feelings" aren't a consideration or we're not. Leaders are needed most when somebody has to give hard orders nobody wants to hear.

T_of_A said:
There's also no point in giving Kagome the bioseal. The Empress won't fight Itachi.
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That's silly. There's a pretty good chance (maybe 10-20%) that Itachi's not gonna be there. That's more than worth Kagome getting the bioseal. If Itachi's there, oh well, nothing lost.

Remember, it's a full S ranker (or two) It's a very big deal.
 
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T_of_A said:
@Dictator4Hire, Hidan wouldn't come track us down alone. He'd know why we're here, and we'd effectively be giving surprise to the enemy.
I recommend removing that part of your plan, it won't pass the sanity check (and not in the way you want).
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Hidan would only be leading an Akatsuki strike force (not just attempting to track us) after us once we contact Leaf:
Paperclipped said:
"Therefore, when either of us contacts Leaf, Leaf must act immediately. At that juncture, there will be no waiting even an hour, because every hour lets Akatsuki reposition, consolidate their forces, escape our assault, or find new allies among the abundant geopolitical players who would gladly humble Leaf for sheltering international criminal missing-nin. If your team or I returned alone, the other would have been locked out of participation. I could not let you return to Leaf without me.
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When that happens stealth is out of the question so we can look into alternatives to 'sneakily set up runes near the Rift site'.

Kyreneryk said:
A reminder that most of the team does not know the EM nuke exists. Also, we have no one who can cast EM and would have to use Superchillers, which we haven't researched yet and which only last ten minutes (so we'd need to research a longer-lasting version). Also, I'm fairly confident that an area at most 10 miles wide surrounded by EM nuke storms would rapidly become uninhabitable even if it would nominally be outside the maximum range of the storm. Also, what's even the point of doing this? Why are we trying to create an impassible perimeter around the Rift site?
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Thread quotes for area and duration (underlines added):
eaglejarl said:
They were on a skytower, miles above and far more miles away from the destruction. They could see it below, a place where the sky tore at the earth. A column of clouds were ripped from the heavens and smashed into the dirt below while rivers of that hellish liquid cascaded forth and were hurled away to flow miles across the earth. There was a sound to it, a continuous scream as though the Paint was tearing itself apart. The trees and ground were simply gone everywhere within a mile of the origin point and varying levels of destruction spread outwards from there. At a sustainable travel pace it would have taken Hazō more than an hour to run from one side of the destruction to the other.
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eaglejarl said:
"Oh, yes, of course." Gaku blinked, ordering his thoughts, and then nodded as they coalesced. "The phenomenon appeared three to four hours ago.
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Buggy said:
Also, i think if we set up dozens of gigantic miles-wide storms, visible across the entire EN, outlining the rift site, then we no longer need to hide from Hidan. We no longer need to hide from anyone, for everyone on the entire fucking continent bears witness to our blazing beacon of frosty destruction and mayham.
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That's the point: an utterly (or nearly cuz S-rankers can be bullshit) impassable barrier even for S-rankers when stealth is no longer an option. These EM explosions would cover our rear once our Leaf allies arrive so we cut off Akatsuki reinforcements from reaching the Rift site. After our rear is secure we can mop up the S-rankers still inside of the EM perimeter and get to work on the Rift itself. Our team could then regroup and begin digging in to prepare to repel the delayed Akatsuki counterattack.

It's all about divide and conquer using the largest "barriers" we can produce. Even if the EM effects cannot keep Akatsuki out completely they will still have taken massive amounts of damage just from walking through the fallout area. I like our odds much more fighting them after they tank such incredibly strenuous damage. With all of their bags of tricks we have been told S-rankers mainly rely on playing to their strengths so we should do likewise by playing to ours: introducing destructive effects so devastating and novel that no one in the Elemental Nations could possibly prepare enough for to survive or endure said effects.

Paperclipped said:
When Hazou later mentions the blood-cleaning bioseal, the team agrees that this is more important than the reserves-enhancing bioseal, though still not worth dying over. They have some ideas:
  • Use this as an opportunity to lure Hidan out.
  • Take the full-Leaf assault route, in which Akatsuki will be forewarned anyway.
  • Just don't use Hazou's runes in the attack, and rely on the S-rankers + summons + S-rank SCs.
They're not sure if these are good ideas, but it's better than Hazou getting full-Orochimaru'd.
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Before setting up RERs, we could instead set up chakra radar runes first and task Orochimaru with intercepting any chakra signatures that approach our position. Presumably, Hidan would not be leading ALL of the Akatsuki to us at once and even if there are 2 Akatsuki members tracking us, Oro only needs to incapacitate Hidan so we can pick up our gear, move to another location with the Rift in RER range, and then start the process again.

Of course, if the chakra signatures are actually Akatsuki out in force we would have to have a messenger (perhaps 7th path or Shadow Clone?) to warn us while we escape.
 
There's always been a tenuous balance between Noburi, Kei, and Hazou. Nominally, we can order them to do whatever we want. Realistically, Kei decides to learn Shadow Element and raise Deceit, and Noburi refuses Orochimaru's water whip upgrade, and Hazou doesn't push them because then they'd outright refuse. This would change the power dynamics between them.

"Never give an order you know will be refused" and all that.
 
[] Action Plan: Negotiating as Men


FaintlySorcerous said:
It's not just the chakra seal. Hidan can detect our blood within the area we'll be infusing runes. That would be a disaster. Orochimaru's bioseals can defeat Hidan's abilities
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I think this can be cut as of Papers WoG this afternoon.
FaintlySorcerous said:
We're notjust rolling over and dying.
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Typo


FaintlySorcerous said:
Regardless of the above, accept the seals.
  • Cowardice and ambition are incompatible, and we desire a world in which both the Akatsuki and death are defeated.
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I don't think our bottom line should be to capitulate. Don't invalidate the whole negotiation by folding regardless of what Orochimaru says. I really don't like this part.
 
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And Conjura might also align with Itachi, in the middle of the fight if we're unlucky. Which means that Ruri doesn't need to be invited either, making it one less jonin/summoner that inexplicably goes missing from Leaf. In fact, what other summoners are we even getting beyond Tsunade? I assume Kurenai has become the Monkey summoner by now and Enma is definitely coming. Then there might be the Minami Porcupine summoner. And maybe Neji has enough chakra to summon Kamehameha? Somehow I doubt it. Somehow I think Kamehameha requires more chakra than most Bosses.
CitizenTen said:
Either we think Akasuki is dangerous enough that we have to risk everything (bioseal) to win and "Kei's feelings" aren't a consideration or we're not. Leaders are needed most when somebody has to give hard orders nobody wants to hear.
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I ethically don't believe in ordering suicide missions. I know Kages do it all the time. I know that plenty of modern day generals still do it. But Kei and Kagome know what's at stake. Only they can decide whether their lives are worth less than the world.

Also, the Empire of Pain might be less bad than human extinction. Even if he enacts some consciousness merging ritual or whatever.
 
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There's no point in telling anyone else to go hang out on Oro's surgery table. For all practical purposes it's physically impossible. Shrug.
 
Rafin said:
ethically don't believe in ordering suicide missions. I know Kages do it all the time. I know that plenty of modern day generals still do it. But Kei and Kagome know what's at stake. Only they can decide whether their lives are worth less than the world.
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It's not a suicide mission tho? Like they're a good (maybe not great chance) Oro just plays us straight. Hazo's going under the knife and doesn't think it means he's 100% gonna die. It's much less risky (probably) than most major S rank ninja missions they do all time.


Emstar said:
There's no point in telling anyone else to go hang out on Oro's surgery table. For all practical purposes it's physically impossible. Shrug.
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You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. We should try. If it turns out you're right, oh well. If not, well we just missed out on two S rankers for no good reason.
 
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Rafin said:
And Conjura might also align with Itachi, in the middle of the fight if we're unlucky. Which means that Ruri doesn't need to be invited either, making it one less jonin/summoner that inexplicably goes missing from Leaf. In fact, what other summoners are we even getting beyond Tsunade? I assume Kurenai has become the Monkey summoner by now and Enma is definitely coming. Then there might be the Minami Porcupine summoner. And maybe Neji has enough chakra to summon Kamehameha? Somehow I doubt it. Somehow I think Kamehameha requires more chakra than most Bosses.
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Summoners benefit from Zoo Rush, and while that's not effective against the S-rankers it'll still work against the rank and file. There's a reason Akatsuki took pains to secure the chakra-transfer clans.
 
Zampano said:
As for the plans, I think it is a mistake to ask Oro about the 'Nephew' moniker in Negotiating as Men,
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FaintlySorcerous said:
I promise to push very hard to get it in a later plan. We won't have the same leverage to get an answer (probably) but I think we stand decent odds of getting an answer if we ask him during a research break.
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Can't we add a single line to the current plan to ask him as we lay down for surgery? Like, before the anesthesia (if we even get any).

Edit: That way it doesn't interfere with the negotiations in any way, but on the flip side it might shake some smidgen of sympathy loose at exactly the right moment.
 
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CitizenTen said:
Because it has little downside, huge upside, and is worth the 20 or so words it takes to try? Even if they refuse in 95% of cases, it's still overwhelmingly worth it? Even 99% to be frank. Where else are you gonna get a free S ranker (or two) for having a slightly uncomfortable conversation?
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Yeah no, there is a huge downside. We burn their trust permanently and they refuse to ever take our orders again.

I will refuse to vote for any plan that orders Kei or Kagome to take this risk.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Yeah no, there is a huge downside. We burn their trust permanently and they refuse to ever take our orders again.
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Downside: irrelevant when dead.

You either think we should risk it all to beat Akasuki or you don't. 🤷‍♂️ If you're so concerned about "burning trust permanently" that it blots out all other considerations, we (Hazo) shouldn't even risk getting the bioseal at all. Like, did you even read the last chapter? Taking a bioseal doesn't score highly on the "trust Hazo" or "trust Hazo to give an order" metric, lol.
 
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Optimized wording for the Negociating As Men plan. Do this and you'll have my vote.

  • Uplift
    • Hidan's blood-sensing range beats our runes' ranges. Without a bioseal, setting up runes is impossible. Without runes, Leaf alone will lose this battle that five villages almost lost last time.
    • Taking the bioseal is a death risk, but it's necessary to protect everyone.
      • Akatsuki are an existential threat.
      • We can't bet the world on Hidan's absence.
      • Taking two seals is just as risky, but provides Cannai.
      • We're notjust committing suicide.
        • Stress- and logic-test the 'Orochimaru' section with everyone.
        • His attitude towards us has shifted substantially since we developed runecrafting. He's no social spec; this may be genuine.
    • We're all taking risks here - huge risks. This is ours. We love you.
  • Orochimaru
    • No clone
    • Tone:
      • Firm, respectful. Negotiating as men.
      • Goal: rational self-preservation.
    • Taking a bioseal offers both tactical advantage and strategic risk.
      • Our incentives are currently aligned. What about the long term ?
        • Our death would reduce runemastery proliferation risk and increase the value of his own runic defenses.
        • We can't hide behind other S-rankers if he's already given us a slow, subtle and lethal bioseal. He's the greatest biosealer alive, he could easily do it.
        • We trust his honour, but we don't actually have his word on anything that would avoid him killing us.
      • Refusing bioseals means losing rune deployment and a Boss summon. Our advisors unanimously suggest refusing bioseals and trying riskier battle plans.
    • What would he do in our position ?
      • Tsunade could watch the surgery, but she probably lacks the biosealing skill to notice a kill-seal. Could she examine us afterwards to detect extra bioseals ?
      • Would he give her his word not to implant a kill-seal or control-seal into us ? If Naruto reinstated us as a Leaf nin, would he be bound by his previous commitment ?
    • We see two other avenues to increase trust:
      • Enrich our model of him:
        • Are there rational reasons we can verify against him implanting malignant seals in us?
        • What are his plans for the Rift once we win? Are they compatible with ours (reviving Jiraiya and teaching him runes) ?
      • Deterrents:
        • Would he swear oaths to Summons ?
        • We have deadman switches. We'd prefer a prosocial approach.
          • Refuse to discuss any details of the switches.
    • Accept the bioseals.
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No xp penalty for this plan.

I removed some unnecessary parts :
  • No need to specify that we're avoiding legalese, we're already negociating as men. For the same reason, no need to discuss time-limited oaths or whatever, as we never specified that we were asking for a long-term promise and I think he'll default to something time-limited specific to this surgery.
  • I don't think we should be telling him about the scrying ritual. It's irrelevant, eats word count, and even without it we'd obviously want to raise Jiraiya.
  • We shouldn't end with "cowardice and ambition are incompatible", because our main motivation here isn't ambition. It's rational self-preservation.
  • I would prefer discussing some sort details of the deadman's switch... But let's discuss that once you've approved the above plan optimization.
I added in a detail (a reminder that the previous BoTG had far more essies than we do now), as well as explicitly saying that we'll be teaching runes to Jiraiya is we rez him (because he'll definitely order us to teach him once he's Clan Head again).
 
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[X] Action Plan: Negotiating as Men

I confess a personal fondness for the heady Noumero game theory approach, but approval voting, and I don't have any principled reason to think Oro would like either approach better really.
 
Sir Stompy said:
I don't think our bottom line should be to capitulate. Don't invalidate the whole negotiation by folding regardless of what Orochimaru says. I really don't like this part.
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I'm going to respond to other pings etc. later tonight but this one I can bang out quick:

The point of the plan isn't to negotiate. We don't have a negotiation position; we to be able to deploy RERs and we can't deploy RERs without the blood-changing seal and if we're going to get one seal we might as well get two.

The point of the plan is to approach Orochimaru in good faith as something of a peer or at least respected acquaintance and ask him for help with a problem we're having in a way that doesn't make us look like total bitches.

I am additionally confused because as I understand it you want to take the seals. Can you outline why asking some reasonable questions prior to taking them doesn't hit you right? (Do you not view these as reasonable questions?) My assumption would be that you don't like how it makes us look in front of Orochimaru, but I can't really articulate why. Asking makes us look weak? We are weak and we both know it - acting like we aren't doesn't get us anywhere.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
I am additionally confused because as I understand it you want to take the seals. Can you outline why asking some reasonable questions prior to taking them doesn't hit you right? (Do you not view these as reasonable questions?) My assumption would be that you don't like how it makes us look in front of Orochimaru, but I can't really articulate why. Asking makes us look weak? We are weak and we both know it - acting like we aren't doesn't get us anywhere
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I want to take the seals conditional on Orochimaru being willing to give us some basic assurances he doesn't intend to fuck us over. If he's completely unwilling to do so then we all die in a fire together.

Our bargaining position is very strong actually, he needs our labor and absolutely no one else in the entire world can do it. We aren't asking him for anything except not literally killing us after we work together....this is not an unreasonable ask. He can't intimidate or force us to do shit here.

This seems like a reasonable perspective to me. I want Hazou to act like he has a spine in these negotiations. I don't want the tone that we have a weak bargaining position. We literally do not
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
The point of the plan isn't to negotiate. We don't have a negotiation position; we to be able to deploy RERs and we can't deploy RERs without the blood-changing seal and if we're going to get one seal we might as well get two.
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Assuming we get the blood seal as a minimum, how does the rest of the plan of attack on the Rift work? What's the timeline? Are we setting up RERs before we contact Leaf? How much time do we ideally spend on setting up RERs?

I get the feeling that we, as a thread, might be talking past one another as we all make different assumptions about how the Rift fight will go if all goes according to our terms.
 
Sir Stompy said:
I want to take the seals conditional on Orochimaru being willing to give us some basic assurances he doesn't intend to fuck us over. If he's completely unwilling to do so then we all die in a fire together.

Our bargaining position is very strong actually, he needs our labor and absolutely no one else in the entire world can do it. We aren't asking him for anything except not literally killing us after we work together....this is not an unreasonable ask. He can't intimidate or force us to do shit here.

This seems like a reasonable perspective to me. I want Hazou to act like he has a spine in these negotiations. I don't want the tone that we have a weak bargaining position. We literally do not
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That being said we can certainly be calm and polite about it.
 
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