Remove ads

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Reader mode
Noumero said:
Just implement it such that it thinks its actions have to pass through the bottleneck of the rune (i. e., that it could only affect what the rune does, and controls nothing else). Then it'd know that if its actions destroy the rune, it'd not be able to affect the world anymore (even if it would not model that as "I am destroyed"), which is bad for the expected utility.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That wouldn't rule out damage which alters the rune's functionality rather than immediately wrecking it, including corruption of the AI's utility function. We know such damage is possible because it's been observed in the Great Seal.
 
Ipslon said:
Is there any concrete reason why you don't have sapient seals/runes yet? It should surely be possible for Hazo to make a computer with either one of these, and then program an AI.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Inferno Vulpix said:
However, I wouldn't take that to intrinsically mean Hazou couldn't make a sealtech AI. It's just that he wouldn't do it by making a sealtech microprocessor and then writing lines of code in it. Instead, he'd need to approach the problem from a different angle, one more conducive to directly leveraging Sealing's talents. Although, even here I would be surprised to find such a feat within our grasp.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Chakra already has a psudo-mind, and some input over how seals/jutsu turn out. Chakra's most obvious preference is for action shonen stuff to happen. I think if you made an AI out of Chakra, Chakra would have input on what kind of AI gets made.
And I think we've already seen what kind of mind enough raw Chakra naturally forms: Chakra Golems.

Tldr: absent better controls, this is just a roundabout way of making a Golem.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Sir Stompy on Nov 4, 2024 at 1:43 PM, finished with 57 posts and 14 votes.
Click to expand...


Hmmm the thread is very split on this issue. I think I'll hold off on drawing any conclusions from this poll. I suspect we might need an actual voting cycle with both options to determine for sure.
 
[X] I want to do Chakra Runes before Scrying Runes

Not sold on the Scrying Runes but I'll be pleasantly surprised if they turn out to be somewhat decent or doable. Kinda seems like a shot in the dark as is?
 
MMKII said:
[X] I want to do Chakra Runes before Scrying Runes

Not sold on the Scrying Runes but I'll be pleasantly surprised if they turn out to be somewhat decent or doable. Kinda seems like a shot in the dark as is?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I would be very surprised if Scrying Runes in minimal form turned out to be Hard. I would be somewhat less surprised if they turned out to have a maximum range of a mile or so, but that would still be enough to be very useful for scouting.

I haven't voted in the poll, mostly because I feel very evenly balanced on the issue. Scrying runes aren't essential for an assault - we have telescopes - but they'd help. Chakra runes aren't essential for research - we have enough chakra to fill both DotB tracks - but they'd help. The two feel about on the same tier, to me, and I don't have a good enough estimate of how long it'll be before the fight for that to make the difference. I'm hoping the next update, and Mari's intel in particular, will make that clearer.
 
_The_Bomb said:
Velorien said:
Adhoc vote count started by Velorien on Oct 30, 2024 at 9:57 AM, finished with 355 posts and 20 votes.
Click to expand...


Voting is closed.

Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Friendly reminder to implement these training plans, thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Just another gentle reminder to implement these training plans, thanks!
 


A Proposal for Adjusted Iron Earth Mechanics​


Background

  • Intended Scope of Research

    • The original research description (quoted down below for the sake of convenience) had Hazou attempting to make a seal that froze "all the soil and stone" within "a large area of effect," with the end result being that the rune would straight-up "prevent tunneling or digging ninjutsu, and other techniques that move existing earth."
    • The ratio of words within the description given to the rune's AoE versus the effect implies that Hazou gave more focus to the effect than the Rune's range.
      • Doubly so if we take into account the stronger word choice assigned to the effect ("frozen," "dramatically," "denser," "tougher," etc) compared to the verbiage assigned to the rune's AoE (merely "large").
      • Thus, the main thrust of his research seems to be achieving the perfect "frozen earth" state, wherein the ground resists Earth-ninjutsu based manipulation.

  • Established Narrative Worldbuilding

    • Once infused, Runes are incredibly hard to move, to the point of being nearly immobile
    • Jiraiya's own research for the Leadening Seal shows that it is easier to make something heavy (as we're doing with Iron Earth Rune) than it is to make something lighter, and that this truth persists within modern paper sealing.
      • (NB: perhaps this is partially why no "true flight" seals were ever invented?)
    • Since Runes are far more powerful in their effects than paper seals, it should be reasonable to assume that a Rune that seeks to Block earth-based ninjutsu effects by, in part, "leadening" the ground should easily be able to achieve the desired effect with aplomb --or, perhaps even overachieve.

  • Established Runic Mechanics

    • All Runes have a wide AoE by default, and Hazou-pilot has personally experienced that trying to shrink down a Rune's default-large AoE causes the Rune's research difficulty to increase. Thus, it would be reasonable to say that Hazou didn't factor in range at all during his research. Knowing what he does about runecrafting's fundamental ranges, he would be safe in assuming that any researched rune would simply have a "large" AoE by default.
    • If this is too far a stretch (admittedly, the research description does, indeed, include a segment about ensuring the AoE is "large"), then perhaps Hazou only gave the Iron Earth's range/AoE a cursory boost before moving on, and dedicating the vast majority of his efforts toward making the effect of the Rune as strong as possible (after all, the goal was to make the ground completely immutable to ninjutsu).

  • Personal, Subjective Vibes (Experiences May Vary)

    • Runecrafting has been shown to be Extremely Potent, with Hazou-pilot making a pilot-and-Kei-described city-killer (in the form of the Storm Rune) by accident. When compared to that, it feels as though the current mechanics of Iron Earth feel a little... underwhelming? Or, perhaps, incongruous with what has been achieved in other areas of Runecrafting.
    • The description of "a standard Block against your base Research Stat" seems more aligned with the minimal power/hyper-efficient paper sealing than the power-intensive, hyper-strong capabilities of Runes.
      • the description seems more aligned the Leadening seal (Sealing v Physique) or the Fire Blocking seal (Sealing v Ninjutsu Stat).

Proposed Mechanics to Build, Twist, or Reject

  • Summary of Options

    • A boosted TN throughout the entirety of the rune's AOE (2*Runecrafting level, or perhaps 1.5*Runecrafting)
    • A boosted TN closer to the Rune (same zone + adjacent zones), while maintaining the previous TN outside of this range, up to ~1km
    • Weakening the Block's TN when the enemy rolls Physique by a fractional amount in order to boost the Block's TN when facing ninjutsu
    • Reducing down the AoE to ~0.5km
    • Maintaining the timeladder effect, while also increasing the chakra cost of such ninjutsu

  • Examples Made

    • The ninjutsu is rolled against 2*Runecrafting level in the Same Zone as the Rune, and any immediately adjacent Zones. Outside of this range, the ninjutsu in question must roll against 1.5*Runecrafting level (up to a range of ~1km). Each shift of failure causes the tunneling to take 1 step down the timeladder longer.
      • a simple tweak, with the general TN being raised, and the TN being raised even more if you're quite close to the Rune, itself.
      • Maintains the range of a Kilometer.
      • Maintains the timeladder effect.
    • The ninjutsu is rolled against 2*Runecrafting level throughout the AoE of the Rune (~1km). Each shift of failure causes the tunneling to take 1 step down the timeladder longer. Primarily affects ninjutsu. Tunneling by hand (roll v Physique) is Blocked by a fractional amount (tbd).
      • General buff to the TN
      • Maintains Range
      • Maintains timeladder effect
      • Physique is only partially blocked, since the intended research was, primarily, to block ninjutsu effects. The increased durability of the Earth would still result in a Block being placed, but not one as focused as the Runic Block on the ground being displaced by ninjutsu, specifically.
        • Suggested fractional amount would be (2/3)*Runecrafting, but if this Physique Block is reduced down to (1/2)*Runecrafting level, then it would align with the shown-narrative that Hazou (with his high-30s physique stat) was able to slowly pull some sand from the ground by hand after infusing the Iron Earth Rune for the first time.

Left-Hand Mutant said:
Iron Earth Rune
all soil and stone within a large area of effect is frozen in place, and made dramatically more durable. This effect is similar to how air domes affect air, but benefits from the denser and more solid base material to end up it be much tougher than an air dome.
This effect also prevents tunneling or digging jutsu, and other techniques that moves existing earth.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Paperclipped said:
Hazō completes the Iron Earth Rune! TENTATIVE mechanics*: Anyone tunneling within around a kilometer needs to roll their tunneling technique (or Physique, if working by hand) against the user's Runecrafting. Each shift of failure causes the tunneling to take 1 step down the timeladder longer.

RUNE MECHANICS MARKED AS "TENTATIVE" ARE PRETTY LIKELY TO CHANGE WHEN WE GET A CHANCE TO DISCUSS THEM. DON'T BET STRONGLY ON THESE MECHANICS BEING WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Last edited:
As far as scrying runes go, the primary immediate use case for them is identifying people that approach on the Ninjadar. If it's some random ninja we don't need to worry. If it's someone we recognize we probably do.
 
I created this tier list of researched runes per @eaglejarl saying it would be useful for the QMs to know how the players feel about things we've completed.

Note, this is for the current state of the rune, not the stuff we haven't researched yet.

S: Time Runes
A: Force Domes, Remote Explosives
B: Air Domes, Icarus(?),
C: Storm Runes, Landmine, Iron Earth, Rift-opener
D: HOWR, Explosive, Capacitor
F: Space Stretch

Exact positioning of some stuff is debatable but roughly corresponds to:

S: GOATED
A: Very useful, minor flaws
B: Useful but with a serious flaw or two
C: Situationally useful
D: Mostly useless
F: Totally useless

Let me know if you agree/disagree with the placement!
 
Last edited:
Wow, that really is F-tier. Although, based off the description you gave, I can't figure out what you (SS) were actually going for.
Sir Stompy said:
Space Stretch Rune - This rune distorts space in a radius around it. The affected space is larger on the inside than the outside. Eg. A tape measure would give the diameter of the area as 15 m, but the circumference (measured from outside the AoE) as 10π m
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
acidshill said:
Wow, that really is F-tier. Although, based off the description you gave, I can't figure out what you (SS) were actually going for.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
SS rune or SS me? Lol

It was supposed to be a quick easy rune that we could do for some spatial veterancy (TR 103 equivalent) it accomplished that. It is very useless but it was never intended to be useful lol.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Let me know if you agree/disagree with the placement!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think Capacitor should be filed under Totally Useless if Space Stretch is - they're both basically veterancy-building runes, we haven't found a single actual use for Capacitor. I also think Storm Rune should be moved up to B - it's a decent long-lasting area-denial rune, on the same kind of tier as Air Domes IMO. Otherwise, mostly agree.
 
Kyreneryk said:
I think Capacitor should be filed under Totally Useless if Space Stretch is - they're both basically veterancy-building runes, we haven't found a single actual use for Capacitor. I also think Storm Rune should be moved up to B - it's a decent long-lasting area-denial rune, on the same kind of tier as Air Domes IMO. Otherwise, mostly agree.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think Capacitor has interesting uses in cases where we want to study environmental chakra and chakra flows. But it is bottom of D for sure.

Storm Rune in B, I can see there's a case -- I originally placed it there before @ProperAttorney convinced me to drop it to C. But ultimately we don't care all that much about area denial and the volume of lightning isn't there for it to be a serious threat to Deidara on a timescale shorter than ~minutes. As it stands I think C. An upgraded version would be B. Same for Iron Earth
 
Last edited:
Sir Stompy said:
S: Time Runes
A: Force Domes, Remote Explosives
B: Air Domes, Icarus(?), Rift-opener
C: Storm Runes, Landmine, Iron Earth
D: HOWR, Explosive, Capacitor
F: Space Stretch

Exact positioning of some stuff is debatable but roughly corresponds to:

S: GOATED
A: Very useful, minor flaws
B: Useful but with a serious flaw or two
C: Situationally useful
D: Mostly useless
F: Totally useless

Let me know if you agree/disagree with the placement!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It feels weird to rate Rift-Opener so low, but in the short-term we do care much more about moving the rift than about opening it, so it kinda makes sense? I'd still rate it at A tier.

I'm also tempted to bump Iron earth up to B, even if the effect isn't as strong as we hoped, because defending Leaf is basically impossible without it.

And storm rune is D tier, sadly. It's to obviously a city-killer to ever use, and mostly ineffective at killing ninja as well.
 
Last edited:
Left-Hand Mutant said:
It feels weird to rate Rift-Opener so low, but in the short-term we do care much more about moving the rift than about opening it, so it kinda makes sense? I'd still rate it at A tier
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Rift-opener is kinda weird because it just has one job and it does that job fine. It is a little substrate intensive for larger portals. I think B is close enough.
Left-Hand Mutant said:
I'm also tempted to bump Iron earth up to B, even if the effect isn't as strong as we hoped, because defending Leaf is basically impossible without it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Current version is C IMO, situationally useful and the effect is kinda weak. If it was 1.5 PS or even 1.3 PS it would be B tier.
Left-Hand Mutant said:
And storm rune is D tier, sadly. It's to obviously a city-killer to ever use, and mostly ineffective at killing ninja as well
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think area denial is worth putting it in C-tier. Could be useful if we ever get treed (inside a FD) by Deidara.

I'm not considering second-order social effects in the tierlist lol
 
Left-Hand Mutant said:
I'm also tempted to bump Iron earth up to B, even if the effect isn't as strong as we hoped, because defending Leaf is basically impossible without it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think the problem is that the current iteration of it doesn't actually protect Leaf against a determined attacker. An earth specced jonin with a 69 earth jutsu capstone will have 23 bonus to earth jutsu from Elemental Mastery. A reasonable level for their tunneling jutsu, say... 29? Would be 52 with Elemental Mastery. They will likely have some number of buffs for earth element, but let's ignore that for this hypothetical.

If we use DoB when we make the Iron Earth Rune, the TN will be 66. That means that they will have 5 shifts of failure, so a task that would take a few seconds (making a ditch to go under the force dome) will instead take half an hour. Sure, it's not something they can do in the middle of combat, but they can certainly do so if Leaf is under siege.
 
The problem with Iron Earth is that the official mechanics are so tentative that Paper flat out admitted that they were likely to change as soon as the QMs had the time to sit down and talk about it
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top