I thought amnesia was still on the table, but I doublechecked what EJ said and it is not. My mistake.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
That is not my current estimate of how this is going to actually play out in motion, no. Insofar as AMITY reprisal is concerned, I expect we will probably be using Force Domes to save Leaf from immediate threats if that becomes a problem.
I don't believe we have any indication that diving into the Rift, in actuality, is going to be quick and easy even if we get it open. On the contrary, it is likely to take a lot of time solving that problem, so any ideas we have for how to solve the AMITY reprisal issue shouldn't count on anything productive happening with the afterlife Rift IMO.
- Location
- United States
I don't think it's been said enough, but I really like this section. Especially the parts I highlighted. Thank you, FS. This is a wonderful plan.
Personally I trust him with neither biosealing Hazo nor knowledge of EM nukes (or to be precise I don't think they are worth the increased chance of winning rift war), but that's a minority opinion.
My prediction though is that a bioseal killswitch will be an insurance policy to prevent Hazo from opposing him rather than just a timebomb to be triggered subsequently after rift war.
As for revealing potentially world ending weapons, Orochimaru was willing to work with Akatsuki up until Pain unveiled his plan to end the world as we know it. Finally, I model Orochimau as not trusting Hazo with EM nukes because I don't trust Hazo with EM nukes either.
- Location
- Washington, USA
[X] Action Plan: Negotiating as Men
That's a terrible idea. Never, ever give an order you know won't be obeyed, doing so just degrades your own authority to no useful effect.
Conjura probably shouldn't be involved in the actual fighting, but might be worth including to reduce transit times. If spacetime jutsu can get Tsunade and friends from Leaf to the staging area for the fortress assault faster than Kisame and Itachi can play telephone-tag, that gets us a full strike force AND the element of surprise, best of both worlds.
Nah. Either he thinks the deadman switch is credible based on prior knowledge, or he doesn't. There's nothing we could reveal that would increase the perceived threat without an equal or greater downside - even if it's not enough detail for him to think of countermeasures, he'd lose some respect for anyone flaunting sloppy OPSEC procedures.
- Location
- how about no
How are we deploying Force Domes over Leaf if Hazou will have to spend the majority of his time researching Rift runes? I was under the impression that we would be doing Rift research under a runic Force Dome at the very least to ensure no one can disturb us.
If we can confirm with Tsunade that all 6 S-rankers are outside of Leaf we can set up a massive runic Force Dome before heading to the Rift site, but removing 2 or more Akatsuki members from Leaf before erecting (but not activating so we can leave for the Rift site) the defensive rune would be challenging and probably cause a LOT of collateral damage and deaths.
If we somehow have enough time after finishing the Rift runes and retrieve our S-rankers but the rescued ninja need time to recuperate, I suppose we could spend some time on a hybrid of RER+Superchillers to enact Mutually Assured Destruction to pause AMITY's assault on Leaf? The main downside (that I can see) of Superchillers is that they cannot be launched at static targets: where you infuse the rune is where its effect will be. They are shit for rapid deployment which is why I am so concerned about what are plans for what comes after we secure the Rift site.
I just don't see the appeal of any long term strategy ultimately relying on Orochimaru's tender mercies given his track record. Our team was right in that Mari correctly modeled how Orochimaru views people:
If we are afraid of what Orochimaru might do I would much rather have Tsunade and Naruto by our side as we unleash Superchillers on Akatsuki. Oro is going to become afraid of us eventually as he discovers on his own just how destructive runes can be so it might as well be on our terms.
- Location
- France
Those things last ages. We could spent a day getting chakra transfusions and setting them up, then go do research for weeks or months.
- Location
- how about no
Are we sneaking into Leaf while Akatsuki is still looking for us, do we set up the rune as we contact Leaf, or do we do so after the Rift fight is over?
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Significant plan updates (mostly cuts of unpopular sections) + critique of @FaintlySorcerous' plan.
1. How does this plan respond to Orochimaru arguing that Hazou should accept the bioseals even if it kills him, because the Akatsuki's victory would be that much worse than Hazou's death? If we don't have some grounding for arguing that accepting a higher chance of losing the world to the Akatsuki is better than letting Orochimaru end up the sole runecrafter, I see one of two ways this plays out:
Like, our position is just genuinely incoherent otherwise.
2. We need to get the rest of Team Uplift outside Oro's grasp before we initiate these negotiations. I think it's plausible that he scouted out our location using minions/Summons/??? biosealing abilities, and that his response to our demands would be to capture everyone, then use a combination of threats and mind-control tools (potentially extremely limited, but see what he did to Ren) to make Hazou print runes and Noburi redistribute chakra.
If the rest of the team gets away, however, Oro's definitely denied at least Noburi, which means he has to go nab another Wakahisa, which greatly increases the chance the Akatsuki are forewarned (see Oro's speculations that they seized control over the chakra-redistribution bloodlines worldwide).
Also, Mari being outside his grasp is the only way our dead man's switches work (and it's plausible that he infers/guesses that our mysterious dead man's switch is bound up in one of our teammates).
3.
I think that framing would go over better. For one, it should nullify any potential posturing about honour that Orochimaru may attempt. If we're volitionless systems, the only way to make each other do what we want is to change the objective circumstances of our situation. You don't make two streams merge into one by yelling at them; you do it by digging.
4.
But fine, done.
My concerns:
1. How does this plan respond to Orochimaru arguing that Hazou should accept the bioseals even if it kills him, because the Akatsuki's victory would be that much worse than Hazou's death? If we don't have some grounding for arguing that accepting a higher chance of losing the world to the Akatsuki is better than letting Orochimaru end up the sole runecrafter, I see one of two ways this plays out:
- Orochimaru treats Hazou's demands as a bluff, refuses to entertain them, and poses us an ultimatum: either we accept the bioseals, or he refuses to provide us substrate and expects us to blink first. Two can play the arbitrary-demand game.
- Orochimaru takes Hazou's demands seriously, and re-interprets Hazou as a total hypocrite who'd let the world burn just to save his own hide, with all his talk of "Uplift" being empty words. He may or may not bend to our demands afterwards, but Hazou would completely lose any respect Orochimaru had for him.
Like, our position is just genuinely incoherent otherwise.
2. We need to get the rest of Team Uplift outside Oro's grasp before we initiate these negotiations. I think it's plausible that he scouted out our location using minions/Summons/??? biosealing abilities, and that his response to our demands would be to capture everyone, then use a combination of threats and mind-control tools (potentially extremely limited, but see what he did to Ren) to make Hazou print runes and Noburi redistribute chakra.
If the rest of the team gets away, however, Oro's definitely denied at least Noburi, which means he has to go nab another Wakahisa, which greatly increases the chance the Akatsuki are forewarned (see Oro's speculations that they seized control over the chakra-redistribution bloodlines worldwide).
Also, Mari being outside his grasp is the only way our dead man's switches work (and it's plausible that he infers/guesses that our mysterious dead man's switch is bound up in one of our teammates).
3.
The aim of the corresponding section in my plan is to strike a very specific tone: where we view Orochimaru not as a potentially hostile person with whom we need to engage in posturing, but as an agent with values orthogonal to our own. The aim of that framing/posture is to dissolve any attempts at a status game, which the framing of "negotiating as men do" necessarily involves. It's an invitation to treat each other as systems which neutrally pursue different goals, such that getting mad at each other is as coherent at getting mad at gravity for making water flow downhill.
I think that framing would go over better. For one, it should nullify any potential posturing about honour that Orochimaru may attempt. If we're volitionless systems, the only way to make each other do what we want is to change the objective circumstances of our situation. You don't make two streams merge into one by yelling at them; you do it by digging.
4.
I'd prefer phrasing it as "we can enact dead man's switches", not "we have already done so". Considerably less aggressive, IMO. And ties in better with my preceding point about the tone. If there are no other options, he would want us to enact the dead man's switches so that we can coordinate, and getting his buy-in before enacting them signals our good faith much better (whereas going into the meeting with the dead man's switches already active signals adversarialness).
Eh, I don't really want another meeting scene about this. I can add something like this in if you really want it.
- I just cut that line completely.
- Partly done.
- We do need something, as argued in the criticism of @FaintlySorcerous' plan. Better ideas welcome.
- I cut that.
I really think those checks are more effective if we specify what exactly we want them to "optimize" and who is supposed to do that and how. My eyes, at least, are just glazing over "optimize with the team" at this point, and I expect the QMs feels similarly.
But fine, done.
We don't know that those killed near the rift respawn near it, and that death carries no other consequences. We shouldn't do that.
Done.
Done.
Eh, maybe. I think it can be fixed, but sure, I just removed that whole section.
Removed that whole section for now; we can revisit it later if the current negotiations bear fruit.
I don't think talking about this at this point is going to be productive...?
Done.
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- Location
- France
Depends on the scenario. If we're taking Naruto then we can do it before attacking. If we're not, then we should do it after taking the Rift.
- Location
- United States
No, saying we've already enacted them is absolutely the way to go. He uses them himself, he understands.
Besides, we've already enacted one. It would be lying to say otherwise.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Nope. We will have enacted the "if Orochimaru attacks Hazou during this negotiation, don't return" dead man's switch. The "Mari spreads EM nukes" dead man's switch is now only enacted if Hazou says to enact it after the meeting with Orochimaru (by telling Mari to split).
- Location
- United States
My understanding is that Mari has already said she will spread the knowledge if we die.
So we are disabling our current deadman switch, meeting with him (where he could feasibly mindwhammy us), and then potentially reactivating it upon our meeting with our group?
Anyway, it's tangential to my main point. I prefer the stronger language [regarding deadman switches] in FS's plan.
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Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Any specifics?
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I expect Orochimaru to have no issue with our prioritizing our survival over everything else. This is his value system and he's smart enough to respect others having the same values.
Put another way: in the world where Orochimaru is unscrupulous, he will provide reassurances and oaths and defect. In the world where he is scrupulous, he will recognize that we are asking for something which is trivial for him to give (a reassurance he won't do something he wasn't going to do anyway).
If he gets annoyed that we'd even dare to imply that he might do something unscrupulous despite our having explained why we think he has incentives to act unscrupulously and having come to him in good faith...well, that's just irrational and he hasn't acted irrationally thus far.
This is part of why I never wanted to frame this as a negotiation position, but a request for help. The fact of the matter is that we're taking these seals no matter what, both because that's the will of the playerbase (I'd rather be Orochimaru's puppet than Pain's) and because my condition for taking the seals is one he can satisfy trivially.
I agree and I'll update my plan.
Negotiating as men is not playing a status game; it's declaring that you trust your opposite party to act with honour and therefore not peppering them with legalese. I'll clarify this.
I do not want to lie to Orochimaru - he can likely beat our Deceit. We're also showing up as Prime, so we must have already set up any deadman switches.
I'll make some updates. I appreciate the critiques even if I don't agree with all of them; thank you for taking the time to write this out.
- Location
- United States
Well, I was specifically referring to the deadman language in the quote you mentioned. But, there's also this if you want to know about other parts of the plan.
I do also have a mild preference how you have the summon path deterrent be specifically to Manda.
Other than that, my biggest critique of FS's plan is how the Uplift section is currently worded. I love the last two lines, but I really do worry that I'm going to end up reading a fairly large amount of ultimately pointless words of the rest of the team telling us not to proceed come Sunday.
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- Location
- Fifth Dimension
Can't lie, I don't see Orochimaru using Bio-sealing to kill Hazou and I'm not sure why they think he would. If Orochimaru wants Hazou dead, he can leisurely take a walk to our location at any moment and solostomp our entire team. We're not exactly his peer in combat.
- Location
- United States
Oh, yeah.
@FaintlySorcerous can we add a few words to the bottom of the plan so that we start doing this in the background?
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
I don't know about that, this is certainly not what we've been preaching with the whole Uplift thing. I think this is just straightforwardly inconsistent.
Add a line explicitly stating that, masks off, we're ultimately concerned with our own survival first, with winning the Riftwar second, and that we'd rather chance navigating the world under the Akatsuki rather than accepting death at Oro's hands? That'd make it consistent.
(Honestly, I actually do think this is straightforwardly inconsistent; Team Uplift is basically strong-arming us into it. I think "ignore them and get the bioseals anyway" is legit the most IC approach.)
Arguing from being honorable is a status game to a large extent, because honor is largely about social perception. That said, I do think the posture you're taking might work as well. I still prefer mine, though.
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Personally, I see red flags galore in the phrasing of FS' plan.
Failure mode: Hazou reads too anxious, Orochimaru sees this not as Hazou stating game theory logic but Hazou being fearful.
Failure mode: again Hazou reads as fearful, not dispassionately voicing capabilities but rather conforming to the stereotype of Oro-fear.
Failure mode: theatrics. Orochimaru is not going to care to listen to us think through all the logic, let alone preface it with chapter headings. He is now annoyed that we're wasting his time on top of annoyed that we're being the stereotypical coward.
Failure mode: weak energy. It reads as a tentative, cautious question, like we're not even confident in this idea, let alone whether it'd work.
Failure mode: opening with words like "public commitment" when we really mean that Tsunade still commands his respect is going to produce a convoluted argument that irritates him and dilutes our point.
There are more. Most notably, I didn't repeat "theatrics" failure modes when really that could have been said a couple more times. And yes, sure, you say that Hazou strives for a tone of non-fear, but I don't think that's actually going to ensure Hazoupilot reads your lines in a way that doesn't read as fear. In fact, my first intuitive expectation upon reading those lines is that Hazoupilot would indeed say them in a way that reads as fear despite any disclaimers.
Overall I must simply say that the vibes are off. This is not a plan that understands Orochimaru, and I will be sticking with Noumero's plan that actually engages him properly.
- Location
- United States
I was referring specifically to the deadman phrasing when I said that. You're the second person to think it was the whole thing, so I think I'm going to go back and change it.
I'm actually in agreement with some of your phrasing concerns in the rest of the plan.
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- Location
- Yes.
Ignore me, I'm dumb.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
@FaintlySorcerous Just boosting this, I think these points are pretty insightful, as a voter for your plan.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Ditto, I think IV lays out some good points here that I personally think would lead to more beneficial outcomes if they're adequately addressed.
- Location
- Cave
Sorry fam, but a fraction of your brain considers him fam.
Make it three.even if i already said it on discord
Brief is better, demonstrate our leverage as simply as possible, demonstrate his capacity for harm simply. We'd take a summon oath, but are open to ideas?(Don't say the open to ideas part, it's weak energy.) No Tsunade bits, agree.
Make it three.
Brief is better, demonstrate our leverage as simply as possible, demonstrate his capacity for harm simply. We'd take a summon oath, but are open to ideas?(Don't say the open to ideas part, it's weak energy.) No Tsunade bits, agree.
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