Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Inferno Vulpix · Nov 5, 2021

Noumero said:
Those are all very valid concerns, sure. But what's the alternative? How is the alternative better?

If we surrender to him as the other plans do, what stops him from understanding it as the go-ahead to vivisect us from Asuma (which it is) and promptly doing so? Naruto and Tsunade? What stops him from just saying "no" to our request to have them oversee the procedure? He can just do that, claim he's lost interest, then kidnap us at a random time a week later. They wouldn't shadow us 24/7.

But say they do loom over his shoulder as he's dissecting Hazou, ensuring that that procedure, at least, goes well. What after? What stops him from kidnapping Kei and Noburi and whoever else next? Again, Naruto and Tsunade wouldn't be able to protect them at all times.

We could request that they assault the Basement if we appear to be missing (which is quite a lot to ask), but if we somehow could manage that, what's the point of going through with the vivisection at all then?

Neither approach is wholly secure, but mine at least takes a stab at it, whereas the other just tries not to think about it and hopes that if we do everything the scary guy asks, he'll leave us alone.

Concede, you mean. The approach where we don't demand any compensation is an essentially unconditional surrender, not a "compromise" at all. My plan is how a compromise looks like.

The rationale behind the other plan is quite simple: if he gets what he wants, he doesn't want it anymore. Or rather, if he gets 90% of what he wants, the remaining 10% marginal utility becomes on net very low-value especially given the precommitments inherent in even plans like Shrooms'.

If you break the problem down into chunks, offering voluntary vivisection with the condition that we stay alive should soundly resolve the problem of Orochimaru being interested in Hazou specifically. After that comes the problem of Orochimaru being interested in Kei, and the potential problems of Orochimaru becoming interested in some other Goketsu like Noburi or Kagome, but if Orochimaru proves amenable to an arrangement where he gets willing research subjects delivered on a silver platter so long as they safely leave afterwards, then the answer to Orochimaru having an interest in someone else we care about is simply 'suggest they go through the same'. It's not ideal, ideal would be not having to go through with it in the first place, but we'd be able to expect their survival afterwards and that's what matters.

And as Shrooms said, there's no need to try and get material gains out of this. If you want to call any solution that involves vivisection but doesn't net us new jutsu a 'surrender', then go ahead but labels don't change the underlying calculus. So far what little data we have on Orochimaru shows that he's quite happy to make cooperative arrangements like the Final Gift Programme, and this plan is much the same principles.

And if we're still concerned, after the fact, that he might try and kidnap us for that last little bit of experimentation, we can implement other precautions like yours as well, but to bank everything on Game Theoretic Coercion because anything else is 'surrendering' feels like an unnecessary narrowing of our options.

Shrooms · Nov 5, 2021

Evolvingmind said:
I don't know if anyone's made a comment on this before now, but something the plan's to attempt to have Hazo safely examined by Orochimaru are missing is that Mari managed to convince Orochimaru that Hazo's bloodline wasn't that interesting.

Lord Marshal said:
He has a point.

Velorien said:
"That said," Orochimaru mused, "when I consider my original reasons for overlooking the Iron Nerve…"
Hazō felt a chill. He'd forgotten the Sealmaster's Fourth Law again.
Whatever lay at the end of that thought, Hazō instinctively knew Orochimaru had to be stopped from reaching it.

Velorien said:
Orochimaru is interested in the Iron Nerve—from which he's been deflected for now

Orochimaru did not give up on the Iron Nerve.

Veedrac · Nov 5, 2021

I think Game-Theoretically Shaped Explosives is suicidal in ways the GMs have explicitly warned us against, and has gone for us badly in the past. I think Pretty Damn Far is pushing dangerous boundaries for questionable payoff and is a big ask of both Hazō and the others involved, and irrespective of what I think of the plan's quality, I personally don't want to read about Hazō or Kei being vivisected, nor him endorsing future vivisections.

I don't have much time right now for more constructive feedback, but that's my initial impression. Surely we can think of something more diplomatic, that plays to our strengths.

Lord Marshal · Nov 5, 2021

Inferno Vulpix said:
If you break the problem down into chunks, offering voluntary vivisection with the condition that we stay alive should soundly resolve the problem of Orochimaru being interested in Hazou specifically. After that comes the problem of Orochimaru being interested in Kei, and the potential problems of Orochimaru becoming interested in some other Goketsu like Noburi or Kagome, but if Orochimaru proves amenable to an arrangement where he gets willing research subjects delivered on a silver platter so long as they safely leave afterwards, then the answer to Orochimaru having an interest in someone else we care about is simply 'suggest they go through the same'. It's not ideal, ideal would be not having to go through with it in the first place, but we'd be able to expect their survival afterwards and that's what matters.

Not necessarily, for now Oro doesn't know about the Seal memory, if he finds out from the vivisections that 10% becomes really really important for him.

Inferno Vulpix · Nov 5, 2021

Lord Marshal said:
Not necessarily, for now Oro doesn't know about the Seal memory, if he finds out from the vivisections that 10% becomes really really important for him.

If it shakes out that way, then he'll wait until we're out from Tsunade's watchful eye before we tragically disappear, and in that time we can set up game theoretic countermeasures, because if cooperation isn't enough to protect Hazou then all we'll have left is hoping we can out-clever a Sannin.

Lailoken · Nov 5, 2021

Plan Boil the World.

Orochimaru is a hard target, but we know that he cares about his basement. We also know from breaking out of the cave in Isan that explosive tags can be stacked.

Earth clones and digger summons with bandoliers of armed explosive tags HALO into his compound and use HLaM to swim to target where the impedance match will translate to a localized earthquake. Meanwhile, water clones dive into the hotsprings and place mines. Crack an upper wall and flood the entire basement with scalding water. After that we have an incompressible fluid filling a confined space, and boy, doesn't that play well with depth charges?

Oneiros · Nov 5, 2021

I think the difference between @Noumero and @Inferno Vulpix is simply different end goals. Ivy is largely arguing that we should optimize for staying alive immediately. Where as Noumero is trying to optimize how to keep Oro from continuing to push the envelope and eventually killing lots of important people and destabilizing leaf. They both make good arguments but they are both arguing different things.

MrRobot · Nov 5, 2021

Im totaly lost but i say something If we go with Oro's examination we should talk to Ino first, Akane is already in the know but blindside ino would be abother social kaiju

Lord Marshal · Nov 5, 2021

So, another proto-plan/plan, in case we want to stall, it's not complete, but if someone wants to use it, here it is.

Proto-Plan: In doubt, stall

Asuma:
- First of all, thanks, he's in a really bad situation and is trying his best to keep everyone alive. He's a good man, probably one of the best Hazou has known.
- For now, what we need is time. Time to think of a solution and hopefully deal with the current fires without Oro risking to break the village in two.
- Suggestion:
  - Send Oro on the Isan mission, it's a solid plan whose only problem is leaving Leaf weakened and you feel you have a solution for that.
    - Let him take as many Cloud-nin as he finds in the mission, with the implicit understanding he must not touch Hazou and Kei before the mission or shortly after. It shows him how useful it is to collaborate and what he would lose by acting on his own. Stick and Carrot.
- Leaf is currently the only thing between the Dragons and the complete annihilation of the 7th Path and the bosses at the conclave knows it. Let's use that.
  - Leaf will pledge his resources to unconditionally help with the Great Seal, but it's also besieged by multiple enemies, so it proposes a contract: a mutually defence pact in case of direct attack of Leaf(the village that is trying to safe their world).
  - Leaf will divert the vital resources of the Sealmasters in exchange for the a contract with Boss Summons/Elite Jonins of the Clans, used only in case of direct attack on Leaf, the place that is trying to resolve the great seal. This contract will not used for anything else and won't be used during the Dragon Crusade.
  - The clans involved pledge to help any clan being invaded in the defence of Leaf, and Leaf pledges to use it's summoners to support said clans.
- This plus Noburi would mean that if Cloud and Rock strikes, we could swarm the enemies with Summons.
  - If the Summoners don't need to reach the 7th Path to recharge, they are not constrained by using a limited amount of summons, as long as the upkeep cost is not a problem.

Oneiros · Nov 5, 2021

Any way I def think we should go hide in Mist. We need to get them on board with the war and Oro can't just murder us there

Lord Marshal · Nov 5, 2021

Oneiros said:
Any way I def think we should go hide in Mist. We need to get them on board with the war and Oro can't just murder us there

It's a solid idea, the problem is running away to Mist means leaving Leaf, and Oro is not going to miss that chance.

Velorien · Nov 5, 2021

Lord Marshal said:
So, another proto-plan/plan, in case we want to stall, it's not complete, but if someone wants to use it, here it is.

[X] Action Plan: In doubt, stall

Asuma:

First of all, thanks, he's in a really bad situation and is trying his best to keep everyone alive. He's a good man, probably one of the best Hazou has known.

For now, what we need is time. Time to think of a solution and hopefully deal with the current fires without Oro risking to break the village in two.

Suggestion:

Send Oro on the Isan mission, it's a solid plan whose only problem is leaving Leaf weakened and you feel you have a solution for that.

Let him take as many Cloud-nin as he finds in the mission, with the implicit understanding he must not touch Hazou and Kei before the mission or shortly after. It shows him how useful it is to collaborate and what he would lose by acting on his own. Stick and Carrot.

Leaf is currently the only thing between the Dragons and the complete annihilation of the 7th Path and the bosses at the conclave knows it. Let's use that.

Leaf will pledge his resources to unconditionally help with the Great Seal, but it's also besieged by multiple enemies, so it proposes a contract: a mutually defence pact in case of direct attack of Leaf(the village that is trying to safe their world).

Leaf will divert the vital resources of the Sealmasters in exchange for the a contract with Boss Summons/Elite Jonins of the Clans, used only in case of direct attack on Leaf, the place that is trying to resolve the great seal. This contract will not used for anything else and won't be used during the Dragon Crusade.

The clans involved pledge to help any clan being invaded in the defence of Leaf, and Leaf pledges to use it's summoners to support said clans.

This plus Noburi would mean that if Cloud and Rock strikes, we could swarm the enemies with Summons.

If the Summoners don't need to reach the 7th Path to recharge, they are not constrained by using a limited amount of summons, as long as the upkeep cost is not a problem.

Clan meeting(Uplift+Ino,Ami,Snowflake, Shikamaru)

What to do?

I know you've presented it as a proto-plan, but lest people vote for it as is, I should point out that it doesn't specify any actions other than the clan meeting. If you wish to present any of these to people outside the discussion group, you'll need to allocate plan space for that.

Note also that, assuming Asuma does decide to send Orochimaru, your window for interacting with him is as narrow as it is with Ami.

Kiba · Nov 5, 2021

Lord Marshal said:
Suggestion:

Send Oro on the Isan mission, it's a solid plan whose only problem is leaving Leaf weakened and you feel you have a solution for that.

Let him take as many Cloud-nin as he finds in the mission, with the implicit understanding he must not touch Hazou and Kei before the mission or shortly after. It shows him how useful it is to collaborate and what he would lose by acting on his own. Stick and Carrot.

Orochimaru being allowed to take as many cloud-nin as he like is pretty much a given.

Lord Marshal · Nov 5, 2021

Velorien said:
I know you've presented it as a proto-plan, but lest people vote for it as is, I should point out that it doesn't specify any actions other than the clan meeting. If you wish to present any of these to people outside the discussion group, you'll need to allocate plan space for that.

Note also that, assuming Asuma does decide to send Orochimaru, your window for interacting with him is as narrow as it is with Ami.

Oh, right, i forgot to cancel the voting part. Thanks.

Oneiros · Nov 5, 2021

Lord Marshal said:
It's a solid idea, the problem is running away to Mist means leaving Leaf, and Oro is not going to miss that chance.

Oro doesn't have spies or minions, we just need to wait till he is in the basement and bounce using skywalkers all the way there. There's no trail for him to trace and if he gets close just evac to the 7th path.

Shrooms · Nov 5, 2021

Oneiros said:
Any way I def think we should go hide in Mist. We need to get them on board with the war and Oro can't just murder us there

Hmm true, having a Summoner or two there would allow for instant communication between the villages, we could go there for 'diplomacy'. We could leave while Orochimaru is in Isan and skywalk to avoid leaving a trace/bumping into enemy ninja (except they also have skywalkers so we would need to disguise ourselves in the sky or something...) Only question is: would Orochimaru willingly pursue us into Mist? And this still only buys more time... plus, with Hazou gone and Mari at her lowest point yet the clan may not survive his absence

Oneiros · Nov 5, 2021

[X] Action plan: Make like a tree

Asuma
- Ask for Kei, Hazou and a summoner to be sent to Mist as diplomatic envoys
- Permission to use Skywalkers to get there fast and safely.
- We would use Noburi to make sure we are able to chakra boost all the way there
- Once we arrive the other summoner will return to Leaf.
- If Asuma can guarantee a few hour window where Orochimaru will be occupied he can save our lives and have us contribute to the war effort
If time allows
- Full Clan Meeting
  - Akane sends Shadow Clones to find Ino, Shikamaru, and Ami. Summon Snowflake.
  - Summarize Situation, Present Plans.
    - should we volunteer for live vivisection?
      - We must live, no permanent injury.
      - Occurs at Hospital.
      - Orochimaru allows Tsunade and Naruto to attend.
        
        Tsunade/Naruto commit to immediately destroy our body if we die, destroying data.
      - Orochimaru shares data with Hazou, but no other clans.
    - In return, we will...
      - Advocate the procedure.
        
        The data would be useful for Orochimaru and recipient, and may entice more volunteers.
      - Share live data to Orochimaru during procedure, and explain experience in detail afterward, for more data.
        
        YSJ/Tsunade to endure consciousness?
- While we are outside of the village have the clan talk to the following
  - Naruto
    - Explain Orochimaru crisis, and the plan. Without his cooperation we are dead already
    - If not us, please help Kei.
  - Tsunade
    - Explain Orochimaru crisis, and the plan. If Tsunade oversaw the procedure, she could keep us alive.
    - Name price for her cooperation.
    - If not us, Kei?

Emstar · Nov 5, 2021

[X] Action Plan: Surely We Needed More Moving Pieces

-Go ask Asuma for permission to head to Rain to attempt to get in contact with Akatsuki (upon reflection and/or a burst of unique insight: we have reason to believe this may be one of their bases of operations, rain soaked in chakra, god-tier feats of ninjutsu, must've been Pain, yadda yadda). The purpose of this is to try to persuade them to intercede in some way in this conflict in a way that is beneficial to us.

-We will point out the problem with the Great Seal and mention that Leaf is the only village currently working on this problem, and that a war right now could be existentially dangerous to reality itself. This is something that is verifiably true (they can have Itachi check with the Crows, for example). We will use this as the core thrust of an argument that Leaf should be aided (in some capacity) at this time. We don't necessarily believe that they will try to attack any of the villages at scale-- it would probably go against the spirit of Pain's dying wish-- but there is probably something that can be done there.

-There are two highly probably outcomes from this action: in the first, they are somewhat convinced and are willing to offer aid. In the universe in which they aren't convinced, well, the worst case scenario is probably that they take offense to us trying to talk with them and murder us on sight. In this universe... well, at least Asuma has less problems on average to deal with in the aftermath , right?

-If Asuma greenlights it, then go do that, bringing some ninja with you. Perhaps Keiko, Akane, and Noburi.

faflec · Nov 5, 2021

MMKII said:
[X] Action Plan: Surely We Needed More Moving Pieces

-Go ask Asuma for permission to head to Rain to attempt to get in contact with Akatsuki (upon reflection and/or a burst of unique insight: we have reason to believe this may be one of their bases of operations, rain soaked in chakra, god-tier feats of ninjutsu, must've been Pain, yadda yadda). The purpose of this is to try to persuade them to intercede in some way in this conflict in a way that is beneficial to us.

Can't we just send a Dog to the Crows?

Emstar · Nov 5, 2021

faflec said:
Can't we just send a Dog to the Crows?

This doesn't get us out of the village.

E: Also, they might not respond as well to an indirect message. Most people don't respond to mail, but will respond to someone meeting them IRL to talk about something.

Shrooms · Nov 5, 2021

When we were first entering arachnid there was a Shark talking with a spider, does Kisame know what's going on?

faflec · Nov 5, 2021

Shrooms said:
When we were first entering arachnid there was a Shark talking with a spider, does Kisame know what's going on?

HDK

Shrooms · Nov 5, 2021

faflec said:
HDK

~~obviously or i wouldn't be asking~~
Consider it a rhetorical question

Cariyaga · Nov 5, 2021

[x] Action Plan: Game-Theoretically Shaped Explosives

Evolvingmind · Nov 5, 2021

[X] Action plan: Make like a tree
[x] Action Plan: we don't have to be dissected if there is someone to do it for us.

Oneiros said:
[X] Action plan: Make like a tree

Asuma

Ask for Kei, Hazou and a summoner to be sent to Mist as diplomatic envoys

Permission to use Skywalkers to get there fast and safely.

We would use Noburi to make sure we are able to chakra boost all the way there

Once we arrive the other summoner will return to Leaf.

If Asuma can guarantee a few hour window where Orochimaru will be occupied he can save our lives and have us contribute to the war effort

If time allows

Full Clan Meeting

Akane sends Shadow Clones to find Ino, Shikamaru, and Ami. Summon Snowflake.

Summarize Situation, Present Plans.

should we volunteer for live vivisection?

We must live, no permanent injury.

Occurs at Hospital.

Orochimaru allows Tsunade and Naruto to attend.

Tsunade/Naruto commit to immediately destroy our body if we die, destroying data.

Orochimaru shares data with Hazou, but no other clans.

In return, we will...

Advocate the procedure.

The data would be useful for Orochimaru and recipient, and may entice more volunteers.

Share live data to Orochimaru during procedure, and explain experience in detail afterward, for more data.

YSJ/Tsunade to endure consciousness?

While we are outside of the village have the clan talk to the following

Naruto

Explain Orochimaru crisis, and the plan. Without his cooperation we are dead already

If not us, please help Kei.

Tsunade

Explain Orochimaru crisis, and the plan. If Tsunade oversaw the procedure, she could keep us alive.

Name price for her cooperation.

If not us, Kei?

Oneiros, maybe ask if having Hazo, Kei, and a summoner sent to Mist is possible and if so what he is willing to do to distract Orochimaru, since when we talk with our allies we'll be able to talk about how to ensure Orochimaru doesn't just ignore whatever Asuma asks him to do and if/how we can maximize our chances of getting to Mist safely and what to do when we need to return to Leaf if we go through with that plan.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

In doubt there's always the Sun!

The Shining One

The Shining One

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