Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Did you mean Daizen?
Danzo is a perfectly loyal Leaf citizen who did nothing wrong, after all
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
What inconsistencies are you calling out?
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Legends say that the Dark One closes voting once the fading echoes of the twelfth bell have vanished from the streets of London town...
He is most likely talking about the fact that reality constantly changes here(retcons).
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If you're able to bring back powerful ninja of the past and you have enough brains to only bring back people who are friendly to you, the other clans probably say "More tea, sir?"
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
So, there are two general routes to necromancy ahead of us. The first path is to pave the trail ourselves, as an S-rank super-sealmaster years or decades in the future, and the second path is to convince the S-rank super-sealmaster currently hanging around Konoha to do it for us. which to choose is currently an open question as there isn't a real consensus on whether the second path is viable, but that doesn't mean we're stuck with nothing to do.
The first productive thing we can do is try to gather more data on which path is optimal. This, in effect, means researching Orochimaru.
The second productive thing we can do is anything and everything that both paths share in common. For example, there are certain things that we would want to have done ahead of time on the Orochimaru path, and would need to be done as a matter of course on the Hazou path, and so we can say that those things should be done no matter the route we take, and that there's no need to wait for the critical choice to be made before starting it.
We're a little busy right now, IC, given that we're on a deadline to crush the Hagoromo enough to secure a wedding for Noburi, but there's one thing in particular that wouldn't take much time and makes for solid progress no matter which path we choose: gathering support.
There's two facets to the value of this. The first is that there are many plausible cases where the additional resources, influence, or special abilities of another clan might prove helpful in our quest, and as such the more people we have on board the smoother our plans will go. The second is that it would really suck to get 90% of the way there only for everyone else to rally against us out of a misguided sense that death is the natural order of the world. I don't doubt that we'll be able to convince them in time that, say, resurrecting Jiraiya and Hashirama would in fact be a good thing for Konoha, but having the top brass on board from the beginning means that these difficulties become much more unlikely.
Selling people on supporting a necromantic conspiracy is for some reason a hard sell, though, which is why I have a plan for how to do it:
imo the best person to start this with is Ino, given that she's a) a smart and reasonable person, b) generally loosely favourable towards us, and c) still mourning the death of her father and other family lost in the Collapse. I figure we can give the above plan a good shot with her over a lunch meeting, without taking time away from our other plans IC. If it works with Ino we can look to the other teenage clan heads, where reasonable, and then branch out to the adult clan heads that we think aren't too set in their ways.
Something to stress, though, is caution. If we fail to persuade someone, we can try again later. If we come off as a crazy person with delusions of grandeur, they'll stop taking us seriously on the matter in the future. It's thus in our interests to make sure that any failed sales pitches fail gracefully.
But that said, who's up for lunch with Ino?
The first productive thing we can do is try to gather more data on which path is optimal. This, in effect, means researching Orochimaru.
The second productive thing we can do is anything and everything that both paths share in common. For example, there are certain things that we would want to have done ahead of time on the Orochimaru path, and would need to be done as a matter of course on the Hazou path, and so we can say that those things should be done no matter the route we take, and that there's no need to wait for the critical choice to be made before starting it.
We're a little busy right now, IC, given that we're on a deadline to crush the Hagoromo enough to secure a wedding for Noburi, but there's one thing in particular that wouldn't take much time and makes for solid progress no matter which path we choose: gathering support.
There's two facets to the value of this. The first is that there are many plausible cases where the additional resources, influence, or special abilities of another clan might prove helpful in our quest, and as such the more people we have on board the smoother our plans will go. The second is that it would really suck to get 90% of the way there only for everyone else to rally against us out of a misguided sense that death is the natural order of the world. I don't doubt that we'll be able to convince them in time that, say, resurrecting Jiraiya and Hashirama would in fact be a good thing for Konoha, but having the top brass on board from the beginning means that these difficulties become much more unlikely.
Selling people on supporting a necromantic conspiracy is for some reason a hard sell, though, which is why I have a plan for how to do it:
- Talk about a few of Konoha's heroes and express that their deaths are such a tragedy (if they have recently lost a personal loved one in recent events, make sure to commiserate on that as well)
- Without putting much weight into it, as if it were a mere philosophical curiosity, talk about 'what if that Edo Tensei propaganda was actually real? Would we want to bring them back?' In the ensuing conversation, take the stance that it would in fact be good. This step is where we start instilling anti-deathism ideas in them. Make sure to keep your cool, though, as right now we're pretending that this is just casual philosophy talk.
- Once they're at least 'you make sense but I'm hesitant to fully agree with you'-level convinced, say that someday in the future you hope to make a try of your own. Discuss your experiences and why you believe it's possible, while maintaining the sense that this is only a hypothetical in the far future, to keep the idea distant enough to not hit 'are you crazy?' instinctive reflexes.
- With your intentions stated, ask if, should the project actually show promise, they would be willing to lend a helping hand. The sense of distance would again help avoid bad reflexes, and you're covering the biggest objection (but it's impossible!) in the hypothetical that you're making progress, so it should be possible at that point to extract a loose idea of support.
imo the best person to start this with is Ino, given that she's a) a smart and reasonable person, b) generally loosely favourable towards us, and c) still mourning the death of her father and other family lost in the Collapse. I figure we can give the above plan a good shot with her over a lunch meeting, without taking time away from our other plans IC. If it works with Ino we can look to the other teenage clan heads, where reasonable, and then branch out to the adult clan heads that we think aren't too set in their ways.
Something to stress, though, is caution. If we fail to persuade someone, we can try again later. If we come off as a crazy person with delusions of grandeur, they'll stop taking us seriously on the matter in the future. It's thus in our interests to make sure that any failed sales pitches fail gracefully.
But that said, who's up for lunch with Ino?
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
That's one of the strongest ammo for 'here's why I think it's not impossible', yeah. I figure a lot of people haven't really internalized the implications of that, though, which means they might still think that resurrection is impossible until we remind them that it's already been done.
But hey, if they're clever enough to make that connection, that just means our work is easier.
- Location
- Yes.
Right, so why are we talking about Edo Tensei in point 2. instead of going right to "the bad guy had a literal resurrection technique, wouldn't it be awesome if we had one?"?
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Starting with Edo Tensei allows us to approach the topic more casually. I'm sure it's the sort of question that people have idly asked every so often in normal conditions, so it's not entirely out of the ordinary for us to bring it up as a conversational topic, which helps us start talking about our ideas without looking crazy.
Plus, associations. Edo Tensei is a Leaf-led propaganda stunt, Pein's rez technique is the work of a vile superterrorist. Pein's work is worth bringing up in the next section where we argue that resurrection isn't as implausible as it sounds, but it'd be counterproductive in the section about convincing people that resurrection would be a good thing.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[x] Action Plan: Socials, Scouts, and Contracts
Words: TBD
1. Scout out the Hag's papermill for guards, patrol routes, and other importajt info using Summons. If necessary, use Mari's Leaf knowledge to hire a sufficiently stealthy ninja who has a vested interest in hurting the Hag due to their discrimination.
2. Meet with Tsunade, ask for her aid involving the Hag. Regardless of her answer, foot the bill for a large number of medical research. If skeptical, explain that Uplift aligns with her personal philosophy regarding medicine and that we're connected through Jiraiya's memory. We may not be "traditionally" family, or even family in truth, but we believe in her cause and would like to help. No, this isn't a bribe, this is just us trying to do the right thing.
3. Write a letter to that one blacksmith (*insert name here for later*). Offer generous grant, with the condition of being sole customer. Consult with Mari, Gaku, Shikamaru, and Keiko to optimize the letter. Be willing to negotiate price, rates, percentage of profits shared, etc. Be firm on the sole customer part.
4. Fill Akane in on the full thing with Ami. How does she feel? We shouldn't unilaterally forgive Ami since Hazou wasn't the only victim in her plot.
Words: TBD
1. Scout out the Hag's papermill for guards, patrol routes, and other importajt info using Summons. If necessary, use Mari's Leaf knowledge to hire a sufficiently stealthy ninja who has a vested interest in hurting the Hag due to their discrimination.
2. Meet with Tsunade, ask for her aid involving the Hag. Regardless of her answer, foot the bill for a large number of medical research. If skeptical, explain that Uplift aligns with her personal philosophy regarding medicine and that we're connected through Jiraiya's memory. We may not be "traditionally" family, or even family in truth, but we believe in her cause and would like to help. No, this isn't a bribe, this is just us trying to do the right thing.
3. Write a letter to that one blacksmith (*insert name here for later*). Offer generous grant, with the condition of being sole customer. Consult with Mari, Gaku, Shikamaru, and Keiko to optimize the letter. Be willing to negotiate price, rates, percentage of profits shared, etc. Be firm on the sole customer part.
4. Fill Akane in on the full thing with Ami. How does she feel? We shouldn't unilaterally forgive Ami since Hazou wasn't the only victim in her plot.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Anyone else getting HPMOR Dumbledore flashbacks?
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's pretty much impossible not to. Dumbledore was used to lay out the actual positions that 99% of actual people actually hold about why defeating death should not be attempted. The only one he didn't mention AFAICR was "Because God."
I've got an informal game that I play whenever it seems appropriate in which I ask people:
"Imagine that I have a pill that will let you live forever. It's free and completely safe. Would you take it?"
In order to get anyone to say yes I typically end up having to pile restrictions on so it becomes: Free, safe, no side effects, available to anyone who wants it, eliminates aging and disease but you still die if hit by a truck, and sets your physical age to whatever you want (which might be your current age).
Even with all that, about 50% of people will not take the imaginary pill. They also will not acknowledge that "I do not want to live forever" is the same thing as "I want to die at some point."
- Location
- NY
I mean...most of those don't sound like restrictions so much as "I don't want to be tortured for all eternity".
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's a restriction on what the pill does.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I again find myself saddened by my utter lack of surprise at this revelation. Is there hope for the "upliftment" of Earth's average?
- Location
- Yes.
- Location
- NY
Based on the rest of your comment, you seem to view that as a bad thing. I disagree. There is no point in "living forever" if all the future holds is the inevitable decline of old age into senility and infirmity. Eternal youth and still being able to die in irrecoverable circumstances are not "restrictions" in my view, but necessary prerequisites.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Memes.
No joke, but not the internet memes. The kind of memes that spread from person to person by popular culture, or via widely distributed stories. These people are surrounded by the idea that seeking to 'unnaturally' extend your life is morally wrong, personally undesirable, or often both. It's a classic villain motivation. It's a classic temptation for the hero to reject. It's a classic allegory for hubris. And with that established, rationalizations of why it's bad gave rise to other takes on the meme, including immortality as infinite torture, immortality loneliness, immortality overpopulation, etc.
Surrounded by confident assertions like that on all sides, from people who are expected to more or less have their head on straight, naturally they frame the topic in their own head the same way. Immortality is a temptation to reject. Immortality is evil and unnatural. Immortality would be miserable. You'd have to systematically disentangle all of those memes to prove to them that they're just woven into each other instead of standing on truth.
To fight it, though, it's as simple as confidently stating the opposite, enough times in enough situations as you can. Say that, contrary to popular media, immortality is actually pretty cool. Write a story where the immortal guy is totally okay with the way his life's been going. Tell people that sometimes a good thing is just good.
If enough people internalize those memes then they'll spread it to others, fighting the deathist memes in idle discussions on immortality. The better idea will start winning over the people not already immersed in a lifetime of deathist memes, and it'll ride that all the way to prominence.
As a bonus, sooner or later it will stop seeming quite so far-off and fantastical a concept. The storage end of cryonic preservation is already plausible, and we're slowly figuring out what's causing senescence, which will inform attempts to counter it. In time, we'll reach a point where people have to confront that immortality isn't a topic only for sci-fi or fantasy authors to grapple with, but a choice they might have to make themselves, and I feel that when actually offered the choice to live more, a lot of people will realize they don't actually agree with the deathist memes anymore.
Good point, but let's make sure these aren't classified first. Let's not commit treason by leaking top-secret documents.
I agree with this. What if 500 years from now Earth is a nuclear wasteland with a Venus-like climate? What if you have all your limbs amputated due to an accident? What if your body keeps breaking down even further once you pass 150? What if everyone I love dies and I'm all alone and don't want to live anymore? And living forever means you have to keep working to make money forever.
I also think people overstate the value of life because they're scared of what comes next. Additionally, if you're like the majority of the world and believe in an afterlife, eternal life is preventing you from heaven. Then there's overpopulation problems, resource hoarding, etc.
I personally have no desire to live forever, and I'll acknowledge the collorary of that - I would want to die at some point. This does not preclude wanting to have a long happy successful fulfilling complete life and so forth, and doesn't mean I look forward to death, just that based off of the above and personal beliefs, I don't want to live forever.
Edit: Plus, you can't expect a reasonable response from a hypothetical people never expect to become a reality. I think you'd be surprised at the amount of people taking the opportunity if it would actually exist.
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- Location
- United States
For my own part, I would prefer an immortality pill to maintain me indefinitely in excellent health at the age of my choosing, with the caveat that I can end its effects and become susceptible to death if I so choose - say, for example, if after X billion years I find myself immortally floating through the stagnant void of a heat-dead universe with no end in sight. If it did that, I would take it without hesitation.
- Location
- London
Wait, if an enemy power has a known resurrection technique can't we skip over a lot of this by treating it as the massive strategic threat that it is?
Why not approach Asuma under the presumption that this is something already being worked on and ask if we can contribute our insights. It would almost seem weirder if there weren't a Leaf resurrection project now that all the major villages have seen proof of concept. It seems like it should be as frantic a rush as the push towards nuclear armament in our own reality.
In point of fact, we have very good reason to believe that a (potentially) hostile faction absolutely is working on necromancy research (and therefore Leaf needs our own project to compete with them).
Hidan told Itachi (paraphrased because I don't want to dig up the quote) "Jashin isn't a god who just gives you what you want, Jashin is a god who shows you that what you want is possible to prompt you to figure it out yourself". Hidan and Itachi will, with reasonable likelihood, be looking for ways to get to the afterlife dimension. And they have Sasori, one of the greatest currently living sealmasters in the world, on their side.
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