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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Oneiros said:
@faflec can you add trying to get cleared to doing sealing work?
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Yes...but I don't know if you like it. It's less of a "get cleared for sealing research" in the vein that your plans have done, and more of a "hey, is there an updated consensus on my situation?".

I'll still add it, but if you have a compromise suggestion I'll be glad to hear it.
faflec said:
Have another abomination-plan.

[X] Action Plan: Lightcone Prevention
Word Count: 399

Where appropriate, discuss with Mari and Noburi in utmost security (in the wilderness, Tunneling Exavaction-ed underground beyond Byakugan range, Air Domes, <Mari's security jutsu>) beforehand.
  • Explain the details of Shadow Clone, and our guesstimates.
    • We suspect that with enough chakra to summon ~30 clones daily and years of training to deal with clone sickness, learning speed could be quadrupled.
      • Rough analogy: If Hazou had Jiraiya's talent, he could catch up within a decade.
      • Thanks to Noburi, we'll soon have this. Within a decade, we'll all hit S-rank.
      • This is our path to broadly fix the world within our lifetime.
    • But there are people who could abuse this harder.
      • Orochimaru's already S-rank and has access to exotic abilities that could offset clone sickness. All he'd need is a Wakahisa to attain godhood.
      • Ami's also in this position should she learn SC. How likely is this?
      • Clans in general, due to sheer numbers.
        • They may not have chakra transfer, but Hazou imagines Noburi would be pressured to provide services.
    • This is clearly a need-to-know secret even within the clan, for now.
      • We believe chakra transfer and SC haven't interacted before, and SC-users consider it a weapon instead of a training tool, so this may not have been discovered yet. How do we keep it this way, now that Leaf has VD?
        • Should we spread subtle disinformation about VD?
        • Plant evidence suggesting it's bad at interfacing with certain chakra constructs?
  • Handle Ebisu's concerns on Honoka.
    • Search Leaf General Hospital's archives for evidence of Ebisu's claims.
      • Get details/numbers of crippled kids.
      • Talk to survivors and get their stories.
      • Follow-up on other leads.
    • Talk with Kagome. Bring Mari and Noburi.
      • Explain Ebisu's concerns and suggestions.
      • Show him our collected evidence. Offer to arrange meetings with survivors.
      • Ask Kagome how he wants to proceed.
        • Make sure he doesn't plan on harming Ebisu.
        • We do believe Honoka will be fine. Ebisu thinks overexertion was the cause, which Kagome would never do to Honoka.
        • OTOH, Ebisu doesn't think Kagome can change his mind. Leaf holds his teaching skills in high regard, which has ramifications for Kagome's desire for education reform.
  • Ask for an update/consensus on our situation carefully.
    • We're not asking for quarantine to be lifted; we're asking it be reviewed.
    • An Out-infested Hazou would ask for details. Don't ask for them.
    • Follow the consensus.
  • Misc.:
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Edit: Minor plan changes so the "discuss beforehand" section makes logical sense.
 
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I didn't like my minor edits from above, so I rewrote that part again. @Noumero Could you sanity-check me on whether or not Hazou would find it logical to consider explaining SC details and the resulting FOOM to be done "in utmost security"?
faflec said:
Have another abomination-plan.

[X] Action Plan: Lightcone Prevention
Word Count: 399

Discuss with Mari and Noburi beforehand, in utmost security (in the wilderness, Tunneling Exavaction-ed underground beyond Byakugan range, Air Domes, <Mari's security jutsu>) where appropriate.
  • Explain the details of Shadow Clone, and our guesstimates.
    • We suspect that with enough chakra to summon ~30 clones daily and years of training to deal with clone sickness, learning speed could be quadrupled.
      • Rough analogy: If Hazou had Jiraiya's talent, he could catch up within a decade.
      • Thanks to Noburi, we'll soon have this. Within a decade, we'll all hit S-rank.
      • This is our path to broadly fix the world within our lifetime.
    • But there are people who could abuse this harder.
      • Orochimaru's already S-rank and has access to exotic abilities that could offset clone sickness. All he'd need is a Wakahisa to attain godhood.
      • Ami's also in this position should she learn SC. How likely is this?
      • Clans in general, due to sheer numbers.
        • They may not have chakra transfer, but Hazou imagines Noburi would be pressured to provide services.
    • This is clearly a need-to-know secret even within the clan, for now.
      • We believe chakra transfer and SC haven't interacted before, and SC-users consider it a weapon instead of a training tool, so this may not have been discovered yet. How do we keep it this way, now that Leaf has VD?
        • Should we spread subtle disinformation about VD?
        • Plant evidence suggesting it's bad at interfacing with certain chakra constructs?
  • Handle Ebisu's concerns on Honoka.
    • Search Leaf General Hospital's archives for evidence of Ebisu's claims.
      • Get details/numbers of crippled kids.
      • Talk to survivors and get their stories.
      • Follow-up on other leads.
    • Talk with Kagome. Bring Mari and Noburi.
      • Explain Ebisu's concerns and suggestions.
      • Show him our collected evidence. Offer to arrange meetings with survivors.
      • Ask Kagome how he wants to proceed.
        • Make sure he doesn't plan on harming Ebisu.
        • We do believe Honoka will be fine. Ebisu thinks overexertion was the cause, which Kagome would never do to Honoka.
        • OTOH, Ebisu doesn't think Kagome can change his mind. Leaf holds his teaching skills in high regard, which has ramifications for Kagome's desire for education reform.
  • Ask for an update/consensus on our situation carefully.
    • We're not asking for quarantine to be lifted; we're asking it be reviewed.
    • An Out-infested Hazou would ask for details. Don't ask for them.
    • Follow the consensus.
  • Misc.:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
faflec said:
Ask for an update/consensus on our situation carefully.
  • We're not asking for quarantine to be lifted; we're asking it be reviewed.
  • An Out-infested Hazou would ask for details. Don't ask for them.
  • Follow the consensus.
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I'd actually like to make this much stronger and direct in trying to get out of quarantine. As it is it's just wasted plan and scene space. If your uncomfortable with that I'd just cut it entirely
 
@faflec I actually quite like the quarantine update part of the plan. I think a subtle "just checking to see your thoughts" is more likely to get a positive outcome. I'm also not in a hurry to do sealing research with a severe consequences still hanging over us, and a summoning scroll to go check out soon, so I think this offers a good timeline and approach.
I do support using Naruto as an example of why we think FOOM works rather than a guesstimate though, because it seems to make more sense in character.
 
Halberdier said:
@faflec I actually quite like the quarantine update part of the plan. I think a subtle "just checking to see your thoughts" is more likely to get a positive outcome. I'm also not in a hurry to do sealing research with a severe consequences still hanging over us, and a summoning scroll to go check out soon, so I think this offers a good timeline and approach.
I do support using Naruto as an example of why we think FOOM works rather than a guesstimate though, because it seems to make more sense in character.
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I second this. Asking this way is more likely to work and less likely to get us caldera'd than a more direct way. If we ask and the clan gives a non-committal answer, then we can think about being more direct.
 
Sentient Tree said:
I second this. Asking this way is more likely to work and less likely to get us caldera'd than a more direct way. If we ask and the clan gives a non-committal answer, then we can think about being more direct.
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Personally, I think it'd be more in line with Hazou's character to ask directly. He's curious and passionate by nature, with caution and restraint being learned traits rather than natural habit. But I can see how being Influenced by the Out would be an extenuating circumstance that would have him exercising every bit of caution and restraint that Mari all but beat into him.
 
The first thing which comes to mind in response to, "is this a relatively easy FOOM", is, "are we really sure that nobody has (directly responsibly) done this in prehistory, and are we really sure that we want to do it again"?
 
@Velorien Happy birthday! May your evil schemes be productive and your dice rolls come up as crit-successes.
eaglejarl said:
"Thank you, sir. Since we're going to be in that area anyway, could I ask your permission for us to swing through Mist on our way back? It would be nice to see my sisters again for a bit, and I'm sure Hazō would like to see his mother."

"Did he say that?"

"I...may not have raised this topic with him yet."

"Ah, I see. Well, family bonds are important, and will go a long way towards securing the Mist/Leaf alliance. Spend the week, or even two if you need it."
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Alright, so here's our ticket to victory.

Whats something we can do for Leaf that pretty much no one else can?

Give our Aunt Mizukage FOO and get BAR in return.

I propose that (at the very least) we propose to Asuma that we be given permission to broker some rough draft treaties or trade deals with Ren. Nothing ultimately binding, but still good.

We can ask someone in Leaf (Shikamaru?) "What would a reasonable draft of Deal X that you would expect to be fair, beneficial, and signed by both parties." or something of the sort too,so that we'd actually have an idea of what wouldn't be a waste of time.

There's a couple other birds we can hit with that stone.

1) Maybe Mom can be useful in <Insert thing>
2) Something something Iron Nerve socials.
3) Recruit Yukino -- who is a competent ninja currently in Mist that is probably quite lost without a mentor figure and wouldn't be expecting this from us -- into joining Hazou's Alliance to Restore the Dead. That's HARD, for short. (What does everyone think of the name HARD?)
4) Fuck around with AMI or Ami's Lt's.
5) Talk to Mist's Jinchuuriki, make friends.
6) Get tea with Almost Grandpa, AKA Mist's Shikaku. Open channels of communication via his personal spy network (he has one). Do something with these open channels in the future.
 
MMKII said:
@Velorien Happy birthday! May your evil schemes be productive and your dice rolls come up as crit-successes.


Alright, so here's our ticket to victory.

Whats something we can do for Leaf that pretty much no one else can?

Give our Aunt Mizukage FOO and get BAR in return.

I propose that (at the very least) we propose to Asuma that we be given permission to broker some rough draft treaties or trade deals with Ren. Nothing ultimately binding, but still good.

We can ask someone in Leaf (Shikamaru?) "What would a reasonable draft of Deal X that you would expect to be fair, beneficial, and signed by both parties." or something of the sort too,so that we'd actually have an idea of what wouldn't be a waste of time.

There's a couple other birds we can hit with that stone.

1) Maybe Mom can be useful in <Insert thing>
2) Something something Iron Nerve socials.
3) Recruit Yukino -- who is a competent ninja currently in Mist that is probably quite lost without a mentor figure and wouldn't be expecting this from us -- into joining Hazou's Alliance to Restore the Dead. That's HARD, for short. (What does everyone think of the name HARD?)
4) Fuck around with AMI or Ami's Lt's.
5) Talk to Mist's Jinchuuriki, make friends.
6) Get tea with Almost Grandpa, AKA Mist's Shikaku. Open channels of communication via his personal spy network (he has one). Do something with these open channels in the future.
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also work with Oyabun to get international trade deals and other concessions
 
MMKII said:
Alright, so here's our ticket to victory.

Whats something we can do for Leaf that pretty much no one else can?

Give our Aunt Mizukage FOO and get BAR in return.

I propose that (at the very least) we propose to Asuma that we be given permission to broker some rough draft treaties or trade deals with Ren. Nothing ultimately binding, but still good.

We can ask someone in Leaf (Shikamaru?) "What would a reasonable draft of Deal X that you would expect to be fair, beneficial, and signed by both parties." or something of the sort too,so that we'd actually have an idea of what wouldn't be a waste of time.
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Expanding on this (since you missed something important from the discord convo): the potential utility to Asuma here, given that Hazou stands no chance at negotiating a good deal for Leaf against Ren, is that Hazou could be made into a symbolic bridge between Leaf and Mist to help strengthen the alliance. I can imagine Asuma being willing to accept a bad deal on a few minor issues if it sets up the joint Leaf-Mist narrative of Hazou being a beacon of inter-village cooperation.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Expanding on this (since you missed something important from the discord convo): the potential utility to Asuma here, given that Hazou stands no chance at negotiating a good deal for Leaf against Ren, is that Hazou could be made into a symbolic bridge between Leaf and Mist to help strengthen the alliance. I can imagine Asuma being willing to accept a bad deal on a few minor issues if it sets up the joint Leaf-Mist narrative of Hazou being a beacon of inter-village cooperation.
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For various reasons I don't expect there to be much of an objectively bad deal in the first place. Either its a decent deal for both parties, or Asuma doesn't end up signing off on it, or the components that are one-sided in Mist's favor are intentionally placed because they're trivially mitigated in the future by (Insert Hivemind Cleverness), e.g. "We gave them the shipping deal of the century in addition to a fair deal, but this is rendered moot in a few years by our Summoning Scroll trade network plot anyway, so now its just a fair deal. " or somesuch.

I am perfectly content to just walk out the door without getting anything done on this front, there's more than enough unique opportunity in Mist we can capitalize on.

If Ren doesn't want to play ball in a way that ends up being valuable to us in some fashion, then we just don't play at all and she can add it to the regrets pile.

(Though if we suspect that Aunt Ren is going to be inherently unreasonable, we might want to just circumvent her entirely and talk to people that are actually pulling the strings in Mist before showing up to the table. Couldn't hurt to try that anyway, actually?)
 
Oneiros said:
Edit: @Noumero I'll vote for your plan if you include asking if we can be ungrounded and start sealing work
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Done, see if that works for you.
Inferno Vulpix said:
@Noumero, I looked at your plan and I don't feel confident in the 'I made some guesstimates' part of it. Hazou hasn't yet used the jutsu for training at all so he doesn't know even with n=1 shadow clones how effective the training is. I think instead a better approach would be Hazou pondering what's stopping any ol' ninja from pulling a Naruto, and realizing that Noburi breaks one of the major roadblocks. So maybe something more like this:
  • I was trying to figure out what it'd take to get as much training benefit out of it as Naruto does, and I think there are only two roadblocks: chakra, and ability to withstand summoning sickness. There are exercises that can over time help you withstand summoning sickness, and Noburi is the master of chakra, so if someone has Noburi to help them and focuses for a while on those exercises they could plausibly get a lot more training benefit than normal.
There's probably a better way to word it, but I do think that approaching it from 'I was thinking about how to pull a Naruto' instead of 'I extrapolated from n=0' would make his concerns appear stronger and better-founded.
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That's a valid point, and a good suggestion. Implemented.
faflec said:
Could you sanity-check me on whether or not Hazou would find it logical to consider explaining SC details and the resulting FOOM to be done "in utmost security"?
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I'm not sure I'm parsing the question correctly. Are you asking whether Hazou would think that it's something that should be discussed securely? If yes, then yes, obviously: the whole point is that we don't want the secret to leak, so we don't want to discuss it anywhere where a random Hyuuga could lip-read it off of us.

Noumero said:
[x] Action Plan: Lightcone-Ending OPSEC Incident, Narrowly Avoided
Wordcount: 399
  • Discuss with Mari and Noburi, in utmost security (go into the wilderness, Tunnel Excavation downwards until beyond Byakugan's range, then set up an Air Dome).
  • Explain the details of Shadow Clone.
    • This jutsu allowed Naruto to become ridiculously skilled for his age, and you think we can replicate this. His unique advantage is effectively unlimited chakra, and we have Noburi. The ability to withstand clone sickness remains an issue, but there are exercises to dramatically improve on it, especially if you obsessively do them for years.
    • Basically, you suspect that SC could eventually allow one to quadruple their learning speed and training time, in addition to direct multitasking benefits.
    • Optimistically, we'll all be S-rank in half a decade. We finally have a solid shot at fixing the world within our lifetimes.
  • Unless someone more well-positioned to exploit it outcompetes us. Examples:
    • Orochimaru. Bio-augmentations might allow him to offset clone sickness, and he is capable of kidnapping a Wakahisa. Already an immortal S-rank sealmaster, this'll make him a god.
    • Ami, if she somehow learns SC (how likely is it?). She's already extremely competent, and her bloodline-related skills might help with clone sickness too. We'd never catch up.
    • Generally, other major clans: they'll amass power faster due to sheer size. They don't have a Noburi, but the wide-scale implication are such that you doubt we won't be severely pressured to provide services. If everyone's S-rank, no-one is.
  • It's the most dangerous secret we possess. It shouldn't go beyond the clan, and should stay need-to-know even within it.
    • Chakra transfer and SC never met before, and the few who know SC consider it a weapon first, so this exploit hadn't been discovered. How do we keep it this way?
    • Should we spread subtle disinformation about VD? Plant evidence suggesting it's bad at interfacing with certain chakra constructs?
  • Other issues:
    • What would need to happen for Akane, Kagome, Mari to get permission to learn SC?
    • Mari, would you be willing to re-specialize into a Technique Hacker?
    • Noburi, don't resign yourself to merely being the crucial component behind the clan's meteoric rise to power: we should be able to TH you a usable SC variant eventually, too.
  • Meet with the clan. Discuss your quarantine.
    • It's been a month, you've been fairly active, and there hasn't been incidents.
    • Any tests they'd like to run? Otherwise, you'd like to be cleared for sealing research.
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[x] Action Plan: Lightcone-Ending OPSEC Incident, Narrowly Avoided

Shame there's no room for a talk with Kagome, but we can always get to that next cycle.
 
Noumero said:
I'm not sure I'm parsing the question correctly. Are you asking whether Hazou would think that it's something that should be discussed securely? If yes, then yes, obviously: the whole point is that we don't want the secret to leak, so we don't want to discuss it anywhere where a random Hyuuga could lip-read it off of us.
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Great, thanks.

Also, WOW it has actually been a month since the Naruto Incident.
 
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