I thought a bit more about Hazou's Foot in Mouth Aspect. I think I agree with @Velorien that it isn't really any less fair than analogous Aspects of other characters. It's not even the most socially debilitating, Keiko's are easily much worse by several orders of magnitude.

Still, I can't help but feel unsatisfied with it. I think the reason for that is that it doesn't feel like a good way of expressing Hazou's character. To bring up an example used by @Velorien, when Akane is unable to befriend Keiko due to the latter being put off by her optimism, that feels like an inevitable consequence of who Akane and Keiko are as people; it's not really anyone's fault or failure. Akane can't change her own disposition, because it's too tied up in her self-image and the philosophy she adopted in order to escape her own self-esteem issues. If, for example, we were playing as Akane, voted to go cheer Keiko up, and gotten the inevitable result, I think it would've been much easier to accept than Hazou's failure this update.

For Hazou, the Foot in Mouth thing isn't really an important part of his character. Sure, it led to some spectacular negative outcomes, and you can argue that it's a consequence of his sincerity and earnestness, but ultimately it's not much more than simple carelessness. When this Aspect is invoked, it feels more like "Hazou made a mistake" rather than "This is just who Hazou is". It doesn't create interesting drama or character interactions, save by actually screwing things up. This update, for instance, we had an opportunity to get closer to Keiko and help her process her moral dilemma. Instead, we failed. It would be one thing if this failure led to some kind of substantial development, but it probably won't. Everyone knows Hazou means well, he just fucks up occasionally, and life goes on.

I do think the Saviour Syndrome Aspect proposed by @Cariyaga would work better as an expression of the way Hazou thinks about the world. Another option is directly leaning into Hazou's apparent tendency to treat other people as tools with an Aspect - invoke when Hazou creates an effective plan by optimizing the use of his allies' skills, gain FP when this treatment damages his relationships with people. Could even name it Use of Weapons. In any case, I think I've come around to the idea of making an effort to change the current Aspect to a different one, somehow.

Alternative suggestion:

Sincere to a Fault

Hazou wants to see the best in people, and to be able to trust and be trusted by those he considers allies. Unfortunately, his idealism often runs afoul where it meets with cold hard pragmatism, leading him to not always consider that the "right" course of action may be at odds with others' motivations, or may run contrary to their self-interest.

Hazou may be compelled to speak his mind truthfully and sincerely, disregarding social mores, even when doing so may be considered rude, inconsiderate, naive, or taboo.
 
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Alternative suggestion:

Sincere to a Fault

Hazou wants to see the best in people, and to be able to trust and be trusted by those he considers allies. Unfortunately, his idealism often runs afoul where it meets with cold hard pragmatism, leading him to not always consider that the "right" course of action may be at odds with others' motivations or run contrary to their self-interest.

Hazou may be compelled to speak his mind truthfully and sincerely, disregarding social mores, even when doing so may be considered rude, inconsiderate, naive, or taboo.
I think this is a great suggestion.
 
This makes me think that instead of elevating a wholly new (if in-character) concept into Hazou's Trouble, we might be better served by, when and if we excise Open Mouth, Insert Foot, shifting a pre-existing aspect into his Trouble and having it take a more malign bent to fit the station, and then take the new concept and fill the old slot with it. That might be more natural than just swapping out such an important Aspect with one we didn't even make into an Aspect in the first place.

For instance, we could elevate 'Lists and Plans' to his Trouble, call it 'A Calculating Gaze' or something, and describe how it means Hazou's good at planning and organizing but as a consequence he tends to treat other people in terms of their usefulness a lot of the time, despite his attempts to connect with them.
To add to this, we could then take the Saviour Syndrome idea we've been tossing around and add it to Hazou as a regular Aspect, to take the place that Lists and Plans left when it became Hazou's Trouble.

Alternative suggestion:

Sincere to a Fault

Hazou wants to see the best in people, and to be able to trust and be trusted by those he considers allies. Unfortunately, his idealism often runs afoul where it meets with cold hard pragmatism, leading him to not always consider that the "right" course of action may be at odds with others' motivations or run contrary to their self-interest.

Hazou may be compelled to speak his mind truthfully and sincerely, disregarding social mores, even when doing so may be considered rude, inconsiderate, naive, or taboo.
I like this too. Difficult given the political nature of his standing, but it is a Trouble and seems to flow naturally from his current one.
 
Sincere to a Fault

Hazou wants to see the best in people, and to be able to trust and be trusted by those he considers allies. Unfortunately, his idealism often runs afoul where it meets with cold hard pragmatism, leading him to not always consider that the "right" course of action may be at odds with others' motivations or run contrary to their self-interest.

Hazou may be compelled to speak his mind truthfully and sincerely, disregarding social mores, even when doing so may be considered rude, inconsiderate, naive, or taboo.
Very nice!
 
This makes me think that instead of elevating a wholly new (if in-character) concept into Hazou's Trouble, we might be better served by, when and if we excise Open Mouth, Insert Foot, shifting a pre-existing aspect into his Trouble and having it take a more malign bent to fit the station, and then take the new concept and fill the old slot with it. That might be more natural than just swapping out such an important Aspect with one we didn't even make into an Aspect in the first place.

For instance, we could elevate 'Lists and Plans' to his Trouble, call it 'A Calculating Gaze' or something, and describe how it means Hazou's good at planning and organizing but as a consequence he tends to treat other people in terms of their usefulness a lot of the time, despite his attempts to connect with them.

I'd much rather segue into Savior Syndrome than that. TBQH fostering that side of him makes me wholly uncomfortable.
Alternative suggestion:

Sincere to a Fault

Hazou wants to see the best in people, and to be able to trust and be trusted by those he considers allies. Unfortunately, his idealism often runs afoul where it meets with cold hard pragmatism, leading him to not always consider that the "right" course of action may be at odds with others' motivations or run contrary to their self-interest.

Hazou may be compelled to speak his mind truthfully and sincerely, disregarding social mores, even when doing so may be considered rude, inconsiderate, naive, or taboo.
It's better than his current one, that's for sure, and it's a more gentle segue into other Troubles. I'm not really sure that I want it it to be explicitly part of his character that he's incapable of modelling others, though.
 
I'm not really sure that I want it it to be explicitly part of his character that he's incapable of modelling others, though.

Hm. The way I see it, it isn't necessarily a problem with modeling people incorrectly, so much as zeal and ardour for doing the "right" thing. The failure here isn't lack of understanding, so much as typical-mind-fallacy and assuming -- or insisting -- that others be willing to match him in terms of alruism and willingness for self-sacrifice.
 
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So... about the merchant council... Is there any reason we can't bypass them entirely through the mission structure? Civilians pay us peanuts, we do a thing for them that we would have for free.
 
The failure here isn't lack of understanding, so much as typical-mind-fallacy and assuming -- or insisting -- that others be willing to match him in terms of alruism and willingness for self-sacrifice.

Vecht is compelled!

By the by, I have (*checks*) ... negative time to meaningfully affect the outcomes here, but I am very disappointed that we are collectively prioritizing hopeless and inconsequential teenage romance problems over stopping genocide.

For shame.
 
So... about the merchant council... Is there any reason we can't bypass them entirely through the mission structure? Civilians pay us peanuts, we do a thing for them that we would have for free.
See, the way I see it... most ninja wouldn't be interested in doing this or in the position to... but if we were, say, out on a training mission and happened upon a town without walls, we could use pangolin messengers to make contact with Jiraiya, give him a quick contract to sign to make the mission official.
 
Vecht is compelled!

By the by, I have (*checks*) ... negative time to meaningfully affect the outcomes here, but I am very disappointed that we are collectively prioritizing hopeless and inconsequential teenage romance problems over stopping genocide.

For shame.
Don't worry, we've already locked in a dinnertime clan meeting on the subject, and none of the leading plans take enough time to interfere with that.

Yes, it takes more updates to get there, but there's no difference IC so it doesn't actually change anything.
 
Alternative suggestion:

Sincere to a Fault

Hazou wants to see the best in people, and to be able to trust and be trusted by those he considers allies. Unfortunately, his idealism often runs afoul where it meets with cold hard pragmatism, leading him to not always consider that the "right" course of action may be at odds with others' motivations or run contrary to their self-interest.

Hazou may be compelled to speak his mind truthfully and sincerely, disregarding social mores, even when doing so may be considered rude, inconsiderate, naive, or taboo.

That's a pretty good one. Reminds me of when Hazou was aghast at Hinata not wanting Jiraiya to keep the hat during the fourth event. It was naive of him, yes, but it was also a very "Yep, that's Hazou" moment, which is really what I'm looking for with these aspects.

It's also a very shounen protagonist aspect, which always makes me happy.

I'd much rather segue into Savior Syndrome than that. TBQH fostering that side of him makes me wholly uncomfortable.

Uncomfortable is good in this case, I think. Like it or not, Hazou is both a compassionate advocate for the disadvantaged, and a ruthless optimizer obsessively looking for power and designing more weapons than anything else. These aspects of his character aren't strictly contradictory, but there's a tension between them that should absolutely affect him.
 
I'm just glad Hazou is getting a clue soon, hopefully.

Also:
Kawarimi Seal - This seal when activated switches places with another seal that the user targets. Afterwards it crumbles into dust. The seal it switches size with has to be activated and of similar size.

Do: Use it on a Barrier Seal, or something that provides utility like the Glorious Life Saver Seal.
Don't: Switch with an explosive seal.
 
Alternative suggestion:

Sincere to a Fault

Hazou wants to see the best in people, and to be able to trust and be trusted by those he considers allies. Unfortunately, his idealism often runs afoul where it meets with cold hard pragmatism, leading him to not always consider that the "right" course of action may be at odds with others' motivations or run contrary to their self-interest.

Hazou may be compelled to speak his mind truthfully and sincerely, disregarding social mores, even when doing so may be considered rude, inconsiderate, naive, or taboo.
Does he also disregard opsec? Because if there's any miscommunication here between us and the QMs, I can see this biting us in the behind big time.
 
Does he also disregard opsec? Because if there's any miscommunication here between us and the QMs, I can see this biting us in the behind big time.
Going by that reading, it would have an OPSEC problem in certain situations, namely if someone specifically asks us about sensitive stuff, but that's a lot better than the current situation, and we still have the option to resist the compel with a Fate Point, so people can't just waltz up and get kill-you-if-you-know secrets out of us.
 
Uncomfortable is good in this case, I think. Like it or not, Hazou is both a compassionate advocate for the disadvantaged, and a ruthless optimizer obsessively looking for power and designing more weapons than anything else. These aspects of his character aren't strictly contradictory, but there's a tension between them that should absolutely affect him.
I disagree. Me being uncomfortable is not good. I will actively advocate for me not being uncomfortable.

I also disagree that there's any tension between those parts of him. He's good at creating weapons because weapons are easy to create relative to other things, and he's exceptionally creative in everything, therefore he will naturally create more weapons than the average person. I do not actually see any characterization of him, to my reccollection, of him being a "ruthless optimizer obsessively looking for power." I think you're probably pushing the hivemind's activities onto him more than is warranted by the story itself.
 
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Going by that reading, it would have an OPSEC problem in certain situations, namely if someone specifically asks us about sensitive stuff, but that's a lot better than the current situation, and we still have the option to resist the compel with a Fate Point, so people can't just waltz up and get kill-you-if-you-know secrets out of us.

To me, it sounds like the idea is more "Be truthful even when it's costly" rather than "Reveal everything you know on a dime". So, it'd be more like Hazou bluntly replying to a question with a "I can't tell you.".

I think we've worked enough on the opsec problem that Hazou wouldn't just make any major blunder, even with a compel. But maybe he'd be more inclined to trust his closer allies with sensitive information, if he thought it was important? Like, assuming the other person won't betray his confidence?
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Vecht on Sep 15, 2018 at 2:45 AM, finished with 359 posts and 31 votes.
 
[X] Strictly better

Do "Action Plan: Getting a Clue", but have the talk with Jiraiya about Pangolins first
 
[X] Strictly better

You know we aren't getting bonus XP for any of these plans due to self-referential nature, right? :p
 
...ah, I just realized something. People only get to roll Athletics to get away when you try to engage with them, not simply when you enter their zone, right? So Syrup Trap is still perfectly useful.
 
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