Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Briefvoice · Feb 20, 2018

Roomba said:
Maybe add a note to be careful about not leaking Iron Nerve mechanics here? Might even be worth to only do it in front of Keiko for this reason.

Hmm, I mean I don't think, "I'm going to practice this Sleight of Hand Trick a little until I'm confident I can do it," is much of an Iron Nerve give-away, you know? It's the same thing that someone without the Iron Nerve would do.

Hmm, blowing a Fate Point at every attempt is expensive, and I thought we were trying to conserve them for combat. Maybe only do this if the targets seem alert and clever?

That's a good point. Will edit.

I think so. It gives us a lot of options. For example, we can make a bunch of believable fake half words, and then let them be stolen. Hopefully turning a fake in to a proctor will result in a DQ or first event fail. And keeping our real secret word becomes much easier.

I'd rather just check a shop for it first though, should only take a couple of minutes and potentially save us the FP.

Not paranoid enough. Consider that Hazou is hardly going to be the only ninja in the competition to think of making fake words. That store or stores (because there's probably two or three calligraphy stores in town and they all sit next to each other due to the clustering effect) could be staked out or trapped or who knows what. I think a declaration to get materials from J in a way that no one outside the Leaf ninja knows we have them is well worth the FP.

Don't know, honestly. Worth including a contingency to meet with Punch team and have Noburi recharge her?

Okay, couldn't hurt anyway.

Citrus · Feb 20, 2018

[X] Plan of Attack

Roomba · Feb 20, 2018

Briefvoice said:
Hmm, I mean I don't think, "I'm going to practice this Sleight of Hand Trick a little until I'm confident I can do it," is much of an Iron Nerve give-away, you know? It's the same thing that someone without the Iron Nerve would do.

I know I'm being paranoid. But then, this is Hazou and bloodline opsec. Paranoia should be the default.

Briefvoice said:
Not paranoid enough. Consider that Hazou is hardly going to be the only ninja in the competition to think of making fake words. That store or stores (because there's probably two or three calligraphy stores in town and they all sit next to each other due to the clustering effect) could be staked out or trapped or who knows what. I think a declaration to get materials from J in a way that no one outside the Leaf ninja knows we have them is well worth the FP.

I never thought I'd say so in this thread, but this sounds like excessive paranoia to me.

Other examinees are currently resting after the second event. A calligraphy store is going to have normal clients, and there's no non-invasive way of distinguishing those from us under Henge. I'm also pretty sure excessively interfering with Mist's civilian population is grounds for a DQ, which limits option as well. There's a measure of risk, but I don't think it's worth a FP.

What we should be more paranoid about is people giving us fake half words during the con. Hazou should examine them as thoroughly as he can when first presented, and then a second time once we're done and back at the barracks.

faflec · Feb 20, 2018

Roomba said:
this sounds like excessive paranoia to me

AHHHHHHHHHHH ROOMBA'S BEEN LUPCHANZ'D AHHHHHHHHHHH

Briefvoice · Feb 20, 2018

Roomba said:
I know I'm being paranoid. But then, this is Hazou and bloodline opsec. Paranoia should be the default.

All right, I will add a note about making sure to use the 'bad version' once or twice even after he's gotten the good version down so it doesn't look like he instantly becomes perfect to Haruno.

I never thought I'd say so in this thread, but this sounds like excessive paranoia to me.

Other examinees are currently resting after the second event. A calligraphy store is going to have normal clients, and there's no non-invasive way of distinguishing those from us under Henge. I'm also pretty sure excessively interfering with Mist's civilian population is grounds for a DQ, which limits option as well. There's a measure of risk, but I don't think it's worth a FP.

I'm not actually sure how this works, though. If Hazou has the materials from Jiraiya, why would he go buy them at the store? It seems like the act of attempting to buy them at the store forecloses the ability to spend a fate point as a declaration, since Hazou woudn't do that if he already had them. And then if they're not available at the store, it's too late and we just don't have it.

Roomba · Feb 20, 2018

@faflec but would a Lupchanz do this?

Half-word opsec rules

Preparation:

The real half-word paper is kept in one of our storage scrolls.
We prepare several fake halves - Hazou can reproduce the green ink pattern using Iron Nerve, and the actual word can be anything.
We keep one of the fakes in a separate pocket. This will be our primary fake for field use. If we lose it or it's stolen, replace with a different one.

Proctor interaction (General):

This assumes a proctor calls us over and demands that we demonstrate the possession of our half word.
Carry out the whole interaction in a public space. Refuse to follow the proctor anywhere less public.
Be very polite throughout the conversation. An impersonator might fake anger at our security measures and demand we stop. We don't want to make this easier for them.
If the proctor refuses to comply with our reasonable requests (name, Henge check, Air Dome) or demands any action beyond the scope of the rules (like us giving them the half word), decline to cooperate and suggest visiting the Mizukage offices to clear up the misunderstanding.
If threatened with disqualification, demand a written and signed statement from the proctor. If they refuse, or refuse to give their name, threaten them back with reporting their unprofessional conduct to your aunt, the Mizukage.
The more they refuse to comply with reasonable requests, and the more they refuse to resolve the issue via proper channels, the more likely they are to be an impostor. Point out that impersonating a proctor is grounds for a complete disqualification from the exam.
If you're close to certain the proctor is, in fact, an impostor, try to improvise a plan of capture. You can also acquiesce with their demands and let them have the fake.
Even if you're reasonably certain the proctor is real, only allow them to examine you real word half while inside an Air Dome, and never let go of it.

Proctor interaction (specific protocol):

Start off by asking their full name.
Demand that they prove they're not Henged. Dispel as they do so.
Casually, as if making small talk, ask aquestion that a Mist ninja would be able to answer, but an outsider wouldn't. Something from the Academy, perhaps?
Put down an Air Dome after getting the proctor's permission.
Bring out the real half word. Be excessively careful not to ever let go of it.
Remove Air Dome, apologize for the trouble, and be on your way.

I'm willing to incorporate feedback and maintain this post, with the intent of linking to it from every plan we make while the first event is ongoing. Let me know what you think.

faflec · Feb 20, 2018

*reads dialogue*

*screams in Kagome*

*runs away, still screaming*

Cariyaga · Feb 20, 2018

Um... you realize that we do actually have to give proctors our real word half? The ink they used for it was specially made to have a unique appearance, we can't reproduce it.

faflec · Feb 20, 2018

Cariyaga said:
Um... you realize that we do actually have to give proctors our real word half? The ink they used for it was specially made to have a unique appearance, we can't reproduce it.

Cariyaga said:
Um... you realize that we do actually have to give proctors our real word half?

Cariyaga said:
we do actually have to give proctors

Cariyaga said:
GIVE

OH GOD CARIYAGA'S BEEN LUPCHANZ'D

Briefvoice · Feb 20, 2018

Roomba said:
Proctor interaction (General):

This assumes a proctor calls us over and demands that we demonstrate the possession of our half word.

Carry out the whole interaction in a public space. Refuse to follow the proctor anywhere less public.

Be very polite throughout the conversation. An impersonator might fake anger at our security measures and demand we stop. We don't want to make this easier for them.

If the proctor refuses to comply with our requests or demands any action beyond the scope of the rules (like us giving them the half word), decline to cooperate and suggest visiting the Mizukage offices to clear up the misunderstanding.

If threatened with disqualification, demand a written and signed statement from the proctor. If they refuse, or refuse to give their name, threaten them back with reporting their unprofessional conduct to your aunt, the Mizukage.

The more they refuse to comply with reasonable requests, and the more they refuse to resolve the issue via proper channels, the more likely they are to be an impostor. Point out that impersonating a proctor is grounds for a complete disqualification from the exam.

If you're close to certain the proctor is, in fact, an impostor, try to improvise a plan of capture. You can also acquiesce with their demands and let them have the fake.

Even if you're reasonably certain the proctor is real, never let them touch your real half word.

See, I'm not so sure about this "don't let them touch" business. They have to be able to verify that the paper is real. I can see Hazou not letting it out of his grip, but that's not the same thing as allowing the proctor to touch it.

And well, obeying reasonable instructions from the proctors is part of the rules too. I think you're talking yourself into a position that's not defensible.

Proctor interaction (specific protocol):

Start off by asking their full name.

Demand that they prove they're not Henged. Dispel as they do so.

Ask a test question that a Mist ninja would be able to answer, but an outsider wouldn't. Something from the Academy, perhaps?

We have no authority to demand they answer test questions.

Produce your fake word half and show it to the proctor.

Absolutely not.

Lay down an Air Dome after getting the proctor's permission.

This is okay, and frankly probably enough. Modeling opponents, I doubt that any of them is going to go so far as to agree to go inside a confined space from which they cannot easily escape and then try something. Certainly I'd have Hazou ABORT-ABORT-ABORT the mission if asked to go inside a dome. We know a real proctor will do it, though, because one agreed to go into an earth done when Hazou wrote the word in the first place.

So in short, I think you can short-circuit a lot of this with an air or earth dome test. An opponent faking being a proctor will never agree to go inside one with a ninja of unknown capabilities and no room to dodge. If they try something, they then can't escape easily. We know a real proctor will agree to it.

So I would just go straight to the 'dome test'.

faflec · Feb 20, 2018

So what are the chances that the proctors will try to take our words...like by force?

Briefvoice · Feb 20, 2018

faflec said:
So what are the chances that the proctors will try to take our words...like by force?

Proctors are Mist ANBU and will be wearing green armbands at all times so they can be identified.

Mist ANBU

ANBU

To not succeed they'd have to tie their hands so much that what's the point? Much more entertaining to let us steal from each other. That's why a genuine ANBU proctor does't care about going in a dome with us, by the way. Because sure kid, whatever.

faflec · Feb 20, 2018

Briefvoice said:
To not succeed they'd have to tie their hands so much that what's the point? Much more entertaining to let us steal from each other. That's why a genuine ANBU proctor does't care about going in a dome with us, by the way. Because sure kid, whatever.

As in, our words. Team Goketsu's words. While pretending to be a group of Genin pretending to be proctors, with an actual Genin team on standby to be "blamed" for the event.

Or am I just being paranoid?

Roomba · Feb 20, 2018

Cariyaga said:
Um... you realize that we do actually have to give proctors our real word half? The ink they used for it was specially made to have a unique appearance, we can't reproduce it.

We have to hand our real half in at the end of the first event. We also have to demonstrate possession of it when asked by a proctor, but not actually give it to them, and I think this is very intentional. Otherwise, the proctor impersonation strategy would be too effective.

Briefvoice said:
We have no authority to demand they answer test questions.

We have no authority to demand anything of them. They may well refuse the Henge test and threaten us with disqualification if we refuse to produce our word half. At that point we either think it's a real asshole proctor, and we need to escalate via official channels, or we think they're fake, in which case we bring out our fake half.

If they refuse reasonable requests, and the question can be phrased as casual smalltalk, then that's just evidence in favor of them being fake.

Briefvoice said:
See, I'm not so sure about this "don't let them touch" business. They have to be able to verify that the paper is real. I can see Hazou not letting it out of his grip, but that's not the same thing as allowing the proctor to touch it.

Problem is, if we let an impostor actually touch it, they can simply destroy it. That said, I suppose we can allow it inside the air dome only. I'll make the edit.

Briefvoice said:
Absolutely not.

Then there's little point in fake word halves. If we aren't willing to show the fake half to someone we suspect is not a real proctor, then they serve no purpose.

Cariyaga · Feb 20, 2018

Roomba said:
We have to hand our real half in at the end of the first event. We also have to demonstrate possession of it when asked by a proctor, but not actually give it to them, and I think this is very intentional. Otherwise, the proctor impersonation strategy would be too effective.

Why not show them some other (captured) half-word then, if necessary?

Roomba · Feb 20, 2018

Cariyaga said:
Why not show them some other (captured) half-word then, if necessary?

If we have one, then that's not a bad way to mitigate risk. Strictly speaking, the rules say that we have to show our own, but a proctor has no way of verifying this in the field. Losing a word half hurts, but much less than failing the first event.

The main difficulty of dealing with fake proctors is that we can't actually force them to verify their identity. At some point we have to call the bluff. This potentially lets a hostile proctor screw us over while staying within the rules, but the alternative is to let any impersonator willing to go all in on a bluff just roll over us.

Anyone got any ideas as to how to mitigate this? My guidelines try to escalate through official channels, in the hope that an asshole proctor will fold rather than explain themself to the Mizukage, but that is in itself risky.

faflec · Feb 20, 2018

@Briefvoice May I request that your plan's very first thing be to discuss with Keiko/Noburi? Or say that, with the note that we've probably already discussed these things previously?

Roomba · Feb 20, 2018

@Briefvoice I removed showing the fake word half from the normal protocol, though I kept the possibility of giving it to someone we're convinced is a fake in the General section. Also made it more explicit which requests we consider necessary for our cooperation (name, Henge check and Air Dome). Let me know if you disagree with anything else.

Briefvoice · Feb 20, 2018

faflec said:
@Briefvoice May I request that your plan's very first thing be to discuss with Keiko/Noburi? Or say that, with the note that we've probably already discussed these things previously?

The update itself says this has already occurred. And I quote:

"Okay, who wants to take the stealth option?" Hazō asked, reminding himself to look around the group in general. Things were moving in the right direction but this whole inter-team alliance was still too new and fragile. It wouldn't do to let on that he'd already mentally categorized who should get which plan, as well as planned out with Keiko and Noburi how they would chivvy everyone into the appropriate roles.

It would be so nice not to need to go through this bullshit. To simply lay out his thinking and have people judge it on its merits instead of through the lens of their clan loyalties or hatreds, their personal pride, or whatever other bias ran their particular life. He'd actually floated the idea of trying Clear Communication no Jutsu with this group but both Keiko and Noburi had shot the idea down. CCnJ had only made things worse when he tried it with Minami, and none of the Gōketsu kids were willing to see that happen again. Especially not here, with this group of clan heirs and important people who were taking their first step towards the idea of active cooperation between groups larger than three people.

I take this to mean that we can presume that Hazou has gone over the plan with them and they agreed as long as the plan isn't too crazy or over the top. (And it isn't.)

Roomba said:
Anyone got any ideas as to how to mitigate this? My guidelines try to escalate through official channels, in the hope that an asshole proctor will fold rather than explain themself to the Mizukage, but that is in itself risky.

Ultimately if you get someone who is either a total "asshole proctor" or a fake, I think Hazou has to err on the side of giving in but readying himself to attack the instant they reveal themselves to be a fake by trying to snatch the word-half or destroy it or pull something else. It's better than being thrown out of the exam for blatantly disregarding proctor instructions. That might not prevent his word being destroyed, but... oh well, he can at least make them pay for it by beating the shit out of them.

faflec · Feb 20, 2018

Briefvoice said:
I take this to mean that we can presume that Hazou has gone over the plan with them and they agreed as long as the plan isn't too crazy or over the top. (And it isn't.)

Alrighty that's my only major concern. Now have a list of my (relatively) minor concerns:

"In general" When asking that the Goo Bombs be returned, add that if used the burned-out seal be destroyed. Or ask them to bring the burned-out seals be brought back to us, if we're worried they'll save them to use later.
I'm concerned that your proposed plan for Hazou/Keiko/Sakura isn't plausible.
- Hazou's main Social skill is Deceit (Inflict Consequences related to false information or pretending to let something slip). HOWEVER, convincing an enemy to hand over their paper requires Presence (Convince someone to do something by force of personality). Hazou's Presence is 15, and Presence rolls are defended against with Resolve (the Social Stress track). Most Genin with a brain will have Resolve 20; Hazou will lose these rolls more often than not.
- The QMs have ruled that the sheets of paper have patterns on them using unique ink (citation needed).
- Furthermore, it was implied that the verification process requires unique ink and the other half-word.
- A genjutsu setting their extremely valuable piece of paper is more likely to make them hold it closer to them as they try to put out the fire. These people aren't civilians, they're ninjas that are likely paranoid at us by this point.
- Pandaa? Really? The guy is a fucking anthropologist with minimal military training, he's not going to win an Athletics/Taijutsu (?) roll here, distracted or no. It'd be way safer for Pandaa to be in Hazou's backpack, have Hazou take the seals, and give them to Pandaa as we leave.
I'd heavily suggest you drop the "Deception" plot point. I would instead suggest having Akane, Hazou, and Haru be a straight-combat team, while having Keiko, Noburi, and Sakura be a search-and-destroy team using Summons and genjutsu to KO teams quickly. Or something, I'm tired.
DO NOT "CONFRONT" HARU. CONFRONTATION IS A HARSH WORD THAT MAY GET HIM ANGRIER AT US.

Also for @Roomba since your thing was part of the plan:

I think some of our Proctor-interaction protocol (regarding showing half-words) escalates unnecessarily. We shouldn't bring up the Mizukage immediately if they refuse some of our demands, we should only do so if they insist or threaten disqualification.
I don't recall a rule being said that impersonating a proctor is grounds for disqualification, though I could be wrong. @Briefvoice this will seriously affect your plan if it's true; @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Is there a rule against impersonating a proctor?
Please clarify: Who is inside of the Air Dome?
Don't "demand" to prove non-Henge, probably better to "request" instead. It fits better with your bullet of being polite, and the rest of your protocol.
The casual smalltalk only works if the enemy team isn't from Mist. It might be better to talk about the Chunin Exams and the how the proctor's job has been so far (or something like that), as it gives our team opportunities to roll Deceit or similar.

faflec · Feb 20, 2018

Right, so I don't know if @Roomba will show up in the next 6-7 hours, so I'm going to copy his stuff and add my changes for @Briefvoice if he doesn't.

Half-word opsec rules

Preparation:

The real half-word paper is kept in one of our storage scrolls.
We prepare several fake halves - Hazou can reproduce the green ink pattern using Iron Nerve, and the actual word can be anything.
We keep one of the fakes in a separate pocket. This will be our primary fake for field use. If we lose it or it's stolen, replace with a different one.

Proctor interaction (General):

This assumes a proctor calls us over and demands that we demonstrate the possession of our half word.
Carry out the whole interaction in a public space. Refuse to follow the proctor anywhere less public.
Be very polite throughout the conversation. An impersonator might fake anger at our security measures and demand we stop. We don't want to make this easier for them.
If the proctor refuses to comply with our reasonable requests (name, Henge check, Air Dome) or demands any action beyond the scope of the rules (like us giving them the half word), decline to cooperate. If they escalate, suggest visiting the Mizukage offices to clear up the misunderstanding.
If threatened with disqualification, demand a written and signed statement from the proctor. If they refuse, or refuse to give their name, threaten them back with reporting their unprofessional conduct to your aunt, the Mizukage.
The more they refuse to comply with reasonable requests, and the more they refuse to resolve the issue via proper channels, the more likely they are to be an impostor. Point out that impersonating a proctor is grounds for a complete disqualification from the exam (is this true?).
If you're close to certain the proctor is, in fact, an impostor, try to improvise a plan of capture. You can also acquiesce with their demands and let them have the fake.
Even if you're reasonably certain the proctor is real, only allow them to examine your real word half (without showing the actual word) while we're inside an Air Dome, and never let go of it.

Proctor interaction (specific protocol):

Start off by asking their full name.
Request that they prove they're not Henged. Dispel as they do so.
Casually, as if making small talk, ask a question that a Mist ninja would be able to answer, but an outsider wouldn't. Stuff about the Exams that the Genin wouldn't know but the proctors would? It would give us chances to roll Deceit vs. Deceit, at least.
Put down an Air Dome after getting the proctor's permission.
Bring out the real half word. Be excessively careful not to ever let go of it.
Remove Air Dome, apologize for the trouble, and be on your way.

Roomba · Feb 20, 2018

@faflec See my responses below. I'm not going to be online again before the vote deadline, so feel free to maintain the thing in the meantime. Thanks.

faflec said:
I think some of our Proctor-interaction protocol (regarding showing half-words) escalates unnecessarily. We shouldn't bring up the Mizukage immediately if they refuse some of our demands, we should only do so if they insist or threaten disqualification.

You mean the part where we suggest to visit the Mizukage office? That's not meant to be a threat of getting Ren involved, but an appeal to a higher authority. If there were some kind of official proctor HQ, I'd ask to go there. Some place that can resolve rule disputes and confirm a proctor's identity. Not sure how to rephrase it to avoid misunderstandings.

faflec said:
I don't recall a rule being said that impersonating a proctor is grounds for disqualification, though I could be wrong. @Briefvoice this will seriously affect your plan if it's true; @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Is there a rule against impersonating a proctor?

As far as we know, there isn't, though we suspect there would be consequences for getting caught. We're basically lying there in the hope of putting pressure on a probable fake proctor.

faflec said:
The casual smalltalk only works if the enemy team isn't from Mist. It might be better to talk about the Chunin Exams and the how the proctor's job has been so far (or something like that), as it gives our team opportunities to roll Deceit or similar.

Yeah, it's a cheap way of catching non-Mist fakes. Your alternative works against everyone, but requires social combat, which might be a decent trade-off.

Cariyaga · Feb 20, 2018

Why are we trying to figure out Haru's problem by talking to him when we haven't said a word about it to his teammate, Akane? She's perfectly capable of feretting out his problem with much less suspicion than we'd enamor.

faflec · Feb 20, 2018

Damn it all, @Briefvoice poofed, he's probably sleeping.

*TN: Apathy rolls 40
*@faflec Resolve rolls 29

Eh, hopefully we won't die or fail too miserably. Don't think Haru or Sakura will be too pleased with us if so, though.

Cariyaga · Feb 20, 2018

faflec said:
Damn it all, @Briefvoice poofed, he's probably sleeping.

*TN: Apathy rolls 40
*@faflec Resolve rolls 29

Eh, hopefully we won't die or fail too miserably. Don't think Haru or Sakura will be too pleased with us if so, though.

Man, you only have to deal with 40? What a drag.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Handsome Gentleperson

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