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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I'm not interested in giving people genuine reasons to hate us. Vragni is funny in that it's easy to see how pride is tied into his non-capital grudge. But this is outright claiming ourselves to be superior and forcing our views on all of the Karaz Ankor.
 
It honestly makes me really frustrated that people who are only voting for Refuse is only picking it because they don't want to deal with politics and just want to focus on Runes and Learning when Politics is already interested in Snorri and don't understand that being Heir means that Snorri will actually be protected from politics and can focus on Runes and Learning.
 
The3rdCorinthian said:
Also, am I the only one who thinks that Thungi really, REALLY, could not give less of a damn if his heir makes it official and deals with the political shitstorm or instead keeps quiet about it and tries to be an exemplar of what a dwarf would be?
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You're definitely not I'm of a similar mind.

This is very much all in Snorri's head (and hands) as it were befitting the responsibility of having the bonk stick.

Dark as Silver said:
Now lets be fair here.
He inherited so many artifacts that millenia later, Gharl Maraz would be something like the fourth preferred weapon.
We've seen some of the stuff he's inherited
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While true that seems more familial than it is an heir thing if you catch my drift. Like part of why saying "heir" with the hammer carries such weight is because it seems to be seen as Thungi's most impressive piece of runecraft, the same way Grungi's greatest accomplishment is the throne and the rune of eternity.

All of those other pieces come across as more of his by right of being the eldest son, not something he'd need to continue as Grungi's successor as ruler if that makes sense?

TehChron said:
This entire votes a mess, and become something metawise I want nothing to do with. I don't like that it's become driven by the idea of self important, narcissistic rejection of legacy under the assumption of "being better" that a lot of people like to pat themselves on the back about online rather than Snorri himself and his relationship to the legacies that he is the most generous beneficiary of.

It's tainted.
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Its a vote driven entirely by Snorri's internal problems with how he's interpreting the poems and the implications. Call it jumping to conclusions if you wish, but I'd argue that self-importance and narcissism would be accurate if we just assume Snorri is correct when we don't know that.
 
I thought I voted previously when I commented on our rival suffering apoplexy but apparently not.

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
Thanks for elaborating on your thought process, Soulcake. I think the way these choices were presented in a binary way was what made this confusing, because it's clear from the context that there should be more than two outcomes possible. I've written branching dialogue and design choice architecture for a semi-successful indie game, and I did something similar before. Ended up rewriting entire sections of it.

Key elements of change:
- Internally accept the title of heir or not
- - Throw weight around or not
- Share the poem or not.
 
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thamuzz said:
This is not intended to sway votes, just something I thought of:

Yorri would say refuse. He was unhappy that we joined the Burudin. This is even more political than that.
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Yorri was also fine with us making a choice, and as he is who he is he knows what the riddle meant long before we even thought about it.
 
Rungni Khazadson said:
It honestly makes me really frustrated that people who are only voting for Refuse is only picking it because they don't want to deal with politics and just want to focus on Runes and Learning when Politics is already interested in Snorri and don't understand that being Heir means that Snorri will actually be protected from politics and can focus on Runes and Learning.
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Sigh. People lets not be toxic or generalizing. I personally am not voting to get out of politics, and my opinion as to whether or not to go for it can shift quite easily. I'm happy with either outcome.

But to be clear neither option "shields" Snorri from politics, it just changes how the politics works. If you think that being heir will let him entirely shut himself away...ehh not really? No more than he already can.

If Snorri chose to disengage from politics entirely he can already do that as is his right as a runelord. That's not changing no matter what we choose.

Taking the heir means that our power in the political arena goes way up, but so too do the stakes and potential opposition.

Paloswag said:
Thanks for elaborating on your thought process, Soulcake. I think the way these choices were presented in a binary way made this confusing, because it's clear from the context that there are more than two outcomes possible. I write branching dialogue and design choice architecture for a semi-successful game indie game, and I've definitely made that mistake before. Ended up rewriting an entire section of it.

Key elements of change:
- Internally accept the title of heir or not
- - Throw weight around or not
- Share the poem or not
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Yeah I think the binary nature of the choice is the most chilling bit.

I'd argue it does make sense cause dwarf. But it's still not easy.
 
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[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
Rungni Khazadson said:
It honestly makes me really frustrated that people who are only voting for Refuse is only picking it because they don't want to deal with politics and just want to focus on Runes and Learning when Politics is already interested in Snorri and don't understand that being Heir means that Snorri will actually be protected from politics and can focus on Runes and Learning.
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Yeah, regardless of whether we take the title or not, politics will not go away anytime soon especially not when we just claimed the Hammer. Unless we pick the Yorri route and fuck off to the ends of the earth without telling anyone. Unlike him though, we have commitments that keep us in place
 
DragonParadox said:
Yori is a literal hermit who names his Gontri for company, it probably isn't a good idea to take his advice on anything social. There are better reasons to refuse IMO
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Yorri is such a hermit almost everyone has forgotten about him.
EVA-Saiyajin said:
I'm not interested in giving people genuine reasons to hate us. Vragni is funny in that it's easy to see how pride is tied into his non-capital grudge. But this is outright claiming ourselves to be superior and forcing our views on all of the Karaz Ankor.
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This goes both ways.

We're a viable candidate in part because we're genuinely a leading figure in about 10% of the population. Yes we get more opponents but we also get much more support
 
lancelot said:
For how it fucked both sides so badly just in time for the greenskins to double fuck us I'll pick political power overkill for 500 Alex.
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I mean fair nuff I suppose. I just consider the possibility of things not going like that they did in canon to be a pretty major consideration.

See the Dawi Zharr and how they are not a thing.

Evillevi said:
We're a viable candidate in part because we're genuinely a leading figure in about 10% of the population. Yes we get more opponents but we also get much more support
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Also to lend my voice to the pro wing for a second Snorri's in a very unique position as we are a figure of equal appreciation and divisiveness for the radicals and the orthodox (being at exactly 10 rep for both.)

That means that if we claim the position we're not prejudicing one side or the other innately, since we don't belong to them. This does risk a third faction forming (Snorrists?) but equally it does give the opportunity to use the responsibility fairly if that makes sense, since we can just make pretty common sense rulings on things like "the best way to smith a rune."

And in so doing I fear I'm talking myself back around to voting for the heir again. Man I am flip floppy today.
 
lancelot said:
The problem with that is that the QM himself said we'd be able to deal with his hang ups with voting.
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?
Dark as Silver said:
Errr, I don't think it has to lock out the grand ambitions.
But I do think this puts us on a sliding scale where we decide how much less we're going to put the envelope.
This is mostly for game reasons, if we were going purely by this statement
Then I'd assume that Snorri felt the need to immediately align his opinions with the last known best guess of Thungni's. However to keep player agency I think there must be some flex in what he decides.
Furthermore as this one shows
that doesn't mean he has to be there forever and ever.
So I do think the most politically polarising ambitions would be tabled for an unknown period of time, but I think they'd be back eventually.
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I don't think there is anything wrong with my opinion.
Yes we can adjust, however we can only adjust so much and starting from a pretty extreme position. We're not going to be able to adopt an entirely new position.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Yes we can adjust, however we can only adjust so much and starting from a pretty extreme position. We're not going to be able to adopt an entirely new position.
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That feels like a fairly definite proposition, especially since Snorri does still want to surpass Thungi. And while he's apparently got it into his head that's not possible as heir, I think that's cause he's having brain worms due to Ancestor God.

I very much doubt that he'd look at Karstah and go "she cannot surpass me."

Ah preconceived notions the dawi's weakness.
 
Dark as Silver said:
?

I don't think there is anything wrong with my opinion.
Yes we can adjust, however we can only adjust so much and starting from a pretty extreme position. We're not going to be able to adopt an entirely new position.
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Given enough time we might be able to. Thing is the quest only runs so fast. I'd rather not deal with Snori trying desperately to imitate a dwarf he does not and has never understood. The first time Thungi give him a meaningful look he was over-analyzing and doubting himself for half the meeting of the House of Runelords. That is whose shoes we want to step into without a map?

Nah, if Thungi wanted an heir he should have done better than this.
 
Fenrir44 said:
Has the tally reset itself? Do we need to vote again
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No
Adhoc vote count started by ShiningBright on Sep 5, 2024 at 10:48 AM, finished with 1585 posts and 429 votes.
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Doomed Wombat said:
Sigh. People lets not be toxic or generalizing. I personally am not voting to get out of politics, and my opinion as to whether or not to go for it can shift quite easily. I'm happy with either outcome.

But to be clear neither option "shields" Snorri from politics, it just changes how the politics works. If you think that being heir will let him entirely shut himself away...ehh not really? No more than he already can.

If Snorri chose to disengage from politics entirely he can already do that as is his right as a runelord. That's not changing no matter what we choose.

Taking the heir means that our power in the political arena goes way up, but so too do the stakes and potential opposition.
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This is what I meant Wombat

The3rdCorinthian said:
Which is a big part of me going refuse tbh. It really feels like things are going to become all about the political side, and I personally like the rune stuff and learning side far more. Yeah we're still going to get both, but I suspect this will radically shape the direction of the quest, and I'm not excited for waiting for years doing stuff I'm less interested in just for a slightly better chance at changing war of the beard.
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Also being Heir would absolutely Shield Snorri from the Majority of Politics He would have immense power.

soulcake said:
Even disregarding Snorri's thoughts on how he should modulate his behavior after claiming the title (which again, is something you can affect) Being heir is power. Immediate, full stop. You know it, everyone knows it. People will therefore react accordingly.

Being the heir is leading the entire Runesmiths Guild, full stop. That puts you in a position of power beyond the Kings of several Holds, and Guilds. Its a position that even the High King must acknowledge and, if necessary, keep happy or be prepared to make mad. Your decisions in such a position will sway and affect the entirety of the Karaz Ankor.
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DragonParadox said:
Given enough time we might be able to. Thing is the quest only runs so fast. I'd rather not deal with Snori trying desperately to imitate a dwarf he does not and has never understood. The first time Thungi give him a meaningful look he was over-analyzing and doubting himself for half the meeting of the House of Runelords. That is whose shoes we want to step into without a map?

Nah, if Thungi wanted an heir he should have done better than this.
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To be fair to Thungi though, he was probably expecting us to, you know, immediately start working on it. But we ended up ignoring it for a full century resulting in Thungni leaving before we could get around to it. Now we're stuck with vague instructions and no one around to clarify it.

But yeah, the least he could have done was modify it before leaving so it would be less goddamn vague. The old bastard really did fuck us over with that, but we do partially deserve it for not taking it seriously until the last minute.
 
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70 more votes till 500 people!
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Sep 5, 2024 at 10:47 AM, finished with 1583 posts and 429 votes.
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Rungni Khazadson said:
Also being Heir would absolutely Shield Snorri from the Majority of Politics He would have immense power.
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That's still a minority of people, while you were quite general in your statement.

Anyway

Rungni Khazadson said:
Also being Heir would absolutely Shield Snorri from the Majority of Politics He would have immense power.
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It would also create a large faction of political enemies. Snorri, if he wanted too, can already dip from politics that doesn't change if he's heir or no.

Being heir yes gives him immense power to act if he wants too, it doesn't make him safe if he wants to disengage, at least not until such a time as we've cemented the idea so thoroughly that nobody would dream of challenging it. Otherwise (in my eyes) it will make him more politically vulnerable in the short to mid term, as those with a vested interest in attacking his reputation would definitely do so in a manner which can be far more aggressive than simply grumbling about him doing things they don't like.

That's the downside, the power comes with enemies.

MagnificentMind said:
Now we're stuck with vague instructions and no one around to clarify it.
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A few pages ago soulcake already addressed this noting that even if we had started instantly there's absolutely no guarantee that Thungi would have done anything to clarify it.

The only thing that might have changed is that Snorri could have had the assumption "Thungi's here if I was heir then he'd presumably pop out from behind a pillar and mention it."

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

Flip flopping again. I'm fine with either outcome, both are potentially interesting I just hope that no matter which gets picked we can still bug Yorri for interpretations of the poems.
 
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MagnificentMind said:
To be fair to Thungi though, he was probably expecting us to, you know, immediately start working on it. But we ended up ignoring it for a full century resulting in Thungni leaving before we could get around to it. Now we're stuck with vague instructions and no one around to clarify it.

But yeah, the least he could have done was modify it before leaving so it would be less goddamn vague. The old bastard really did fuck us over with that, but we do partially deserve it for not taking it seriously until the last minute.
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I'm not feeling as charitable Why was he expecting anything? He could and should have been clearer, he could have asked. But no, he choose not to communicate clearly with the person (we think!) is meant to communicate in his place so what he got was perfectly reasonable. For that matter so would Snori never picking up that riddle.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
That's still a minority of people, while you were quite general in your statement.

Anyway


It would also create a large faction of political enemies. Snorri, if he wanted too, can already dip from politics that doesn't change if he's heir or no.

Being heir yes gives him immense power to act if he wants too, it doesn't make him safe if he wants to disengage, at least not until such a time as we've cemented the idea so thoroughly that nobody would dream of challenging it. Otherwise (in my eyes) it will make him more politically vulnerable in the short to mid term, as those with a vested interest in attacking his reputation would definitely do so in a manner which can be far more aggressive than simply grumbling about him doing things they don't like.

That's the downside, the power comes with enemies.
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Snorri already has Enemies amongst the other Runelords and Runesmiths this is making sure that no action is taken by them by getting the Majority on Snorri's side and cementing it.
 
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