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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
Cecylene said:
It is… frustrating to see Soulcake keep interjecting on the side of refusing.

This feels a lot like the time in A Sword Without a Hilt when a couple of votes went against the more frequent posters plans and suddenly the votes were reopened for the vote to be "corrected" to what it was supposed to be.

When a threadmark for "clarification" results in one side of the vote losing three and the other then going up fifty votes it's annoying to see discussion basically reset itself, repeating of parts and using the new WoG to reargue points that had been addressed before.

I'm gonna just step away for a few updates and let things settle like I did with ASWaH, let the new status quo set in and come back fresh.
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Soulcake isn't interjecting on either side, he's just clearing up misunderstandings in the thread by being more explicit with what exactly Snorri is interpreting from the riddle, and what he thinks of the situation surrounding it.

You shouldn't have a problem with people changing their votes after being given more accurate information, unless you would like to make the argument that giving people more accurate information is a bad thing.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
RandomTechPriest said:
Souls post was not interjecting on any side, he was just stating the facts as Snorri knows it.
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The results of something speak for themselves.

When a "clarification" swings a vote so hard that one side actually loses votes, it's pretty clear that it was supporting one side of an argument and creating an idea of a "more correct" vote.
 
Cecylene said:
It is… frustrating to see Soulcake keep interjecting on the side of refusing.

This feels a lot like the time in A Sword Without a Hilt when a couple of votes went against the more frequent posters plans and suddenly the votes were reopened for the vote to be "corrected" to what it was supposed to be.

When a threadmark for "clarification" results in one side of the vote losing three and the other then going up fifty votes it's annoying to see discussion basically reset itself, repeating of parts and using the new WoG to reargue points that had been addressed before.

I'm gonna just step away for a few updates and let things settle like I did with ASWaH, let the new status quo set in and come back fresh.
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I'll repeat what I said in a previous post:
Andy0915 said:
It is what its is.
Soulcake clarified the poem with an interpretation which heavily favors the "reject being heir" option
while mostly undermining the rational for "accept being heir" option.
Not much of a point debating the issue anymore.
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It really isn't worth debating this issue anymore. Just pick or don't pick whichever option suites your preferences.
 
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[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
Cecylene said:
The results of something speak for themselves.

When a "clarification" swings a vote so hard that one side actually loses votes, it's pretty clear that it was supporting one side of an argument and creating an idea of a "more correct" vote.
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Thats.... certainly a way to see things. Just from that response I can already tell nothing me or anyone else can say will dissuade you from this opinion so I shall drop this here.
 
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[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
Evillevi said:
I meant more like Thungni has developed a trial ... that doesn't really do much and would dissapear after it's completed.
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Inb4 all the other candidates where sent to a separate trial that ends with the message, "Yes Snorri did win the hammer fair and square, that's why I made him heir." Sasuga Thungni sama
Cecylene said:
The results of something speak for themselves.

When a "clarification" swings a vote so hard that one side actually loses votes, it's pretty clear that it was supporting one side of an argument and creating an idea of a "more correct" vote.
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The thing is, he didn't really say anything that he hadn't said elsewhere in a non threadmarked post.
It seems to be more of the effect of seeing all that stuff together in one place, as well as the effect on anyone who hadn't been following the thread and hadn't seen those posts or people quoting those posts.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
Cecylene said:
It is… frustrating to see Soulcake keep interjecting on the side of refusing.
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I don't intend to, It was a major concern of mine.

I can only lay out my previous statements and facts as Snorri sees them.

Even disregarding Snorri's thoughts on how he should modulate his behavior after claiming the title (which again, is something you can affect) Being heir is power. Immediate, full stop. You know it, everyone knows it. People will therefore react accordingly.

Being the heir is leading the entire Runesmiths Guild, full stop. That puts you in a position of power beyond the Kings of several Holds, and Guilds. Its a position that even the High King must acknowledge and, if necessary, keep happy or be prepared to make mad. Your decisions in such a position will sway and affect the entirety of the Karaz Ankor.

I'm not trying to balance that out with drawbacks, the stuff I said is the obvious consequence of how the quest has made Snorri, a radical element that is the source of serious debate and drama within the Guild, and the subsequent interactions between someone like him taking the position above.

I apologize for pinging you and dragging you back in even incidentally. I wish you well regardless.
 
[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

Gah, it's very stressful since we'd likely be facing a lot of scrutiny, but we have standing 10 and the hammer itself, so it should be fine right? Besides I wouldn't be surprised if people have runic lie detectors and whatnot.
 
[x] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

Just to see our 'rival' trying to keep saying we are doing the ancestor's work!
Also we already made our position political after finishing Khazagar, Snorri just wasn't acknowledging it. Time to stop holding back by fear of stepping on toes, let's crush the toes with our new hammer
 
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soulcake said:
Being the heir is leading the entire Runesmiths Guild, full stop. That puts you in a position of power beyond the Kings of several Holds, and Guilds. Its a position that even the High King must acknowledge and, if necessary, keep happy or be prepared to make mad. Your decisions in such a position will sway and affect the entirety of the Karaz Ankor.
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Switching my vote. This is metal as hell, and the politics will be very interesting.

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
Honestly the thing is, as far as I can see at least, not accepting the title or now will not change things overmuch because the poems and their meaning apply to the wielder of the hammer and even if Snorri rejects the options he already was trying to do what Durin did by teaching so many daei, by making kazaghar, and many other things. This trial will only cement that conviction.

The main thing is that even if we deny the title and all that, people will have their own opinions on the matter and more weight will be given to Snorri's opinion, position both politicslly and on minor things he is involved in.

Possession of the hammer speaks for itself, one way or another, and we will have to be more involved with other runelords and have additional actions and possible situations to resolve/mediate simply because of that. This is more on Snorri's mentality on the question, as a vote.

And a sidenote I think that the position that being an Heir will bar him from becoming an Ancestor or make it harder is a weird position, since in dawi culture everyone has been an apprentice, has been subordinate and learnt from others, Whitebeard being an Heir himself is the closest thing to an Ancestor God, since they departed.

What I do understand is wanting to take the position of Durin through merit, and maybe have a vote in the Rhunakalbrog to legitimise it, though the latter is more puffing hot air imo, the trial itself gives more legitimacy since that was it's main purpose to find someone Worthy.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
Inb4 all the other candidates where sent to a separate trial that ends with the message, "Yes Snorri did win the hammer fair and square, that's why I made him heir." Sasuga Thungni sama
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Nah Thungni just have a "you too slow mate, here's a rock" as a consolation prize. Only the hammer was meant for Durin and there's only 1 of both it and the trial it.

Cecylene said:
The results of something speak for themselves.

When a "clarification" swings a vote so hard that one side actually loses votes, it's pretty clear that it was supporting one side of an argument and creating an idea of a "more correct" vote.
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Being fair, the clarification while one sided was aimed for people who worried about the negatives which are substantial. Remember soulcake was asked in the context of "how does this affect snorri"
 
Evillevi said:
[ ] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

For me this feels like the best option to end this story line.

We have always accepted greater responsibilities so that the heirs that come after Snorri will have a better starting point that Snorri had, so much so that after a whole string of responsibilities and of Grimnir's lesson on WILL did we get noticed by Thungni. Likely even changing his mind by giving us the option to take the trial if the hidden text is any indication

And lastly this is the end of the path that we ask Thungni for. After this it's just us.
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[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
I realize it was abbreviated but I think this is a good choice thanks to the Runelord university we built-I think we designed it with ideas that might work out for being Thugni's Heir.
 
Claiming the title of heir will disrupt dwarven society.

So has most of what we've done.

The unfortunate truth is that dwarven society needs to be disrupted to survive.

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.

It was my first reaction, then I kinda got swayed to Claiming the title, but then I moved back to this. Snorri's definition of what it means to be heir is too restrictive, and he's too divisive and too lacking evidence to claim that title and not start a shitstorm.
And also, I just kind of want him to stand on his own. Make his own legend, define the Karaz Ankor in his own name.
 
Gahh changing my vote. Honestly at this point I'll be conflicted no matter which one wins. Each one is interesting in its own right. And I can make convincing arguments for Snorri to naturally choose either.

So to me it comes down to what I want story wise... and the trying to live up to the Title seems really freakin' cool. Especially when we can moderate it by making choices that changes Snorri's view of what an heir is.

I'm honestly thinking Thungi left this vague on purpose. To leave it up to the finder to decide.

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
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[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

Flip flopping, the votening.
 
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