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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I'll admit. It's kind of funny to see Soulcake struggle with the exact issue the Thungni and his heirs struggle with.

The Ancestor is you Soul.
 
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[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
shepsquared said:
When else is Snorri going to rethink his standards for being an heir? He's an elder of his clan and Yorri doesn't want an heir. Being put in the situation of figuring out an elder even more inscrutable than him, one that the thread has already gone over how he set up the Runesmith's Guild to falter, is the only time Snorri would ever reconsider this unless Karstah has a breakdown.

She may trust Snorri whole heartedly, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't remind her how he needed his mother to tell him to stop being an idiot and adopt him. Karstah should know that Snorri isn't perfect and that once he's gone she'll be expected to make her own decisions while living up to his.
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"Wow, the standards set by my predecessors where too high, I should just aim lower rather than get into a slump over my f." - said no dwarf ever
 
Dutch said:
I'll admit. It's kind of funny to see Soulcake struggle with the exact issue the Thungni and his heirs struggle with.
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Yeah.

mmmkay, flip flopping.

[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.

I'll keep this for now, may change again. My thinking is that if Snorri's interpretation is correct then people will likely start saying it themself without Snorri having to do anything and if/when we get confirmation, well great.

And if he's off base it'll save some headaches.

The one thing I'm certain of is that Soulcake (and Thungi) presumably considered this as a possibility when the hammer was left here and judged that whatever choice was made it wouldn't be catastrophic either way whoever picked it up.
 
Well if we have the choice how to modulate the heir title that it constrant less then that takes out many of the concerns the the refuse voters had or argumented
 
BurnNote said:
It was my first reaction, then I kinda got swayed to Claiming the title, but then I moved back to this. Snorri's definition of what it means to be heir is too restrictive, and he's too divisive and too lacking evidence to claim that title and not start a shitstorm.
And also, I just kind of want him to stand on his own. Make his own legend, define the Karaz Ankor in his own name.
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We can use votes to slowly pull his head out of his ass.

I still think there should be an option for 'this is what happened, this is what I read, believe as you wish I will continue on as I am.' NO refusing is NOT that option.

But this puts us into position to step in when the Dark Elves start fucking around. At least several Rune masters and their entourages were assassinated with evidence left behind to make it look like the high elves did it. Nevermind that in canon the Dawi are never really told by the elves about the civil war so our connections can help with that as well.

This is the first major step to stopping the War of the beard. First, we need to be in a position of power to do a gods damn thing.
 
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BurnNote said:
See, that's true, but I kind of don't like what that would say if decided to be heir. Because he has an heir he held/taught to those standards. Except now that he would have to do the same, he rethinks that because it's too restrictive? That sucks, that really sucks.
And like, Karstah has had to struggle with Snorri's hangups, and that also sucks, but she made the choice that she can accept his definition.
Honestly, it sucks either way for her, because refusing the title is also kind of refusing her choice, while taking the title and changing the definition... also refuses her choice. The only way that doesn't is to take it up the same way she did, but that's a shit choice for other reasons.
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My thought isn't that Snorri is going to change his mind in a vacuum; its that he will change his mind due to the input of those he trust and respects; Yorri, Karstah, his other apprentices, his brother, his clan, Hearth Guard, Snorri Whitebeard, Alrik Thungison, etc.
 
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[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
Fenrir44 said:
Well if we have the choice how to modulate the heir title that it constrant less then that takes out many of the concerns the the refuse voters had or argumented
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I feel like that's not really a major problem no matter what the bigger issue is the potential impact it has on the wider guild IMO.

@soulcake if you're willing to answer and apologies if its already been asked.

soulcake said:
This vote is deciding whether he will tell Kazador, and by extension the rest of the Karaz Ankor about the poems and this interpretation given:
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Refuse also means never talking about the poems and any alternative interpretations that the wise and experienced might have, or does Snorri still have the option of asking for people's opinions about what it could be talking about, albeit shutting down interpretations that it's designating himself as Thungi's heir?

lancelot said:
This is the first major step to stopping the War of the beard. First, we need to be in a position of power to do a gods damn thing.
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War of the Beard is a long way off, and if Snorri survives till then he'll be one of the oldest runelords ever and still the guy with Thungi's hammer.

At that point his soft power will still be immense enough to do more than a lot me thinks.
 
Dark as Silver said:
"Wow, the standards set by my predecessors where too high, I should just aim lower rather than get into a slump over my f." - said no dwarf ever
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Being fair this isn't a standards issue but one of flawed ideals.

Snorri is has very stubbornly ignored or run awy from realization that doesn't fit into his world view while he acts out in weird ways. We have a trial dedicated to that. A lot of the Master / Heir relationship that Snorri has hasn't been tested yet under scrutiny the same way that apprentice/daughter was tested
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
War of the Beard is a long way off, and if Snorri survives till then he'll be one of the oldest runelords ever and still the guy with Thungi's hammer.

At that point his soft power will still be immense enough to do more than a lot me thinks.
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For how it fucked both sides so badly just in time for the greenskins to double fuck us I'll pick political power overkill for 500 Alex.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
@soulcake

To confirm if refuse wins, Snorri will not be telling any one about the contents of the poem in the trial?
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TBH, I think that will be rather obvious.

The poem explicitly calls for the one who retrieves the hammer to take Durin's position.

If you don't take it (the position), you're refusing that call.

If you don't take the position, you don't call out on the fact that you refused Thungni's call by sharing the content of the poem.
 
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Khaos said:
TBH, I think that will be rather obvious.

The poem explicitly calls for the one who retrieves the hammer to take Durin's position.

If you don't take it (the position), you're refusing that call.

If you don't take the position, you don't call out on the fact that you refused to take the position by sharing the content of the poem.
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The problem comes down to this: How did Thungi see Durin's position? Did he see him as Heir as Snorri interprets it, or did he see him as something else?

We know the guild's position on this, but Thungi... he never said shit.
 
Khaos said:
TBH, I think that will be rather obvious.

The poem explicitly calls for the one who retrieves the hammer to take Durin's position.

If you don't take it (the position), you're refusing that call.

If you don't take the position, you don't call out on the fact that you refused Thungni's call by sharing the content of the poem.
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Yes I think so as well, but i've seen people argue they want to talk about it after the fact or talking about how if we choose refuse people will still naturaly come to the conclusion that Snorri is Durin/Thungnis heir and I'm absolutely certain this is wrong because the poem in the trial is getting buried if we choose refuse.
 
Evillevi said:
Being fair this isn't a standards issue but one of flawed ideals.

Snorri is has very stubbornly ignored or run awy from realization that doesn't fit into his world view while he acts out in weird ways. We have a trial dedicated to that. A lot of the Master / Heir relationship that Snorri has hasn't been tested yet under scrutiny the same way that apprentice/daughter was tested
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And the ideal is that he should be able to drop into the position with no change in the standard of work.
They are interlinked issues.
Byzantine said:
No, what they do instead is feel permanently inadequate and slowly break themselves trying to hold themselves to a standard that doesn't even really exist.
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Correct so we agree that Snorri will be unlikely to reassess his standards just because they're impossible to meet and everyone thinks so.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Correct so we agree that Snorri will be unlikely to reassess his standards just because they're impossible to meet and everyone thinks so.
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Yep, completely agreed.

Personally I think the poems are saying we should be Durin's heir, which the guild would interpret as Thungi's heir, but I don't think that is how Thungi meant it. He knew it could be read that way I'm sure, but... well, I do not agree with Snorri's interpretation of the poem.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.

I stayed out for a while but I feel I must join in on the side of refusal.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Yes I think so as well, but i've seen people argue they want to talk about it after the fact or talking about how if we choose refuse people will still naturaly come to the conclusion that Snorri is Durin/Thungnis heir and I'm absolutely certain this is wrong because the poem in the trial is getting buried if we choose refuse.
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It is somewhat ambiguous, if what the is written in the refuse option is said out loud Snorri would have to give the context, which necessarily includes the poem
soulcake said:
[ ] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
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