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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Barring another major upset (which can happen hopefully, idk how much time is left on the vote), I guess we can safely say we're not going to be the heir. Frustrating given how this materialised, but it is what it is and I can live with it.

It won't be (seriously at least) contested that the hammer is his to do with as he pleases.
So carrying on, this caught my eye. Others (well, a rather select subset of a subset of people) would actually be willing to risk it all to challenge our claim to the hammer? That is a magnificently girthy hate boner to have.

It worries me, though, given that we will likely become more 'radical' as time passes. If a few people are already willing to challenge our claim at this stage, once we radicalize even more I can see a greater call from the conservatives to challenge our right to own the Hammer due to 'besmirching the very teachings of the one crafted that hammer' thus making us 'unworthy' of it.
 
Yes I think so as well, but i've seen people argue they want to talk about it after the fact or talking about how if we choose refuse people will still naturaly come to the conclusion that Snorri is Durin/Thungnis heir and I'm absolutely certain this is wrong because the poem in the trial is getting buried if we choose refuse.
I'm going to say, Snorri is going to be known as the guy who couldn't rise up to Thungni's call and chose obscurity instead, at least that's the narrative that his detractors are going to spread, I can easily see it taking hold among a lot of others.

If you don't take the heir position, you keep quiet about the poem.
 
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And the ideal is that he should be able to drop into the position with no change in the standard of work.
They are interlinked issues.
Not really.

The contradiction is that his definition is too basic to cover this scenario rather than in the difficulty. TBF that is a holdver from an earlier part of the quest where our assumptions fit the game that was played.
 
No, what they do instead is feel permanently inadequate and slowly break themselves trying to hold themselves to a standard that doesn't even really exist.

OK no a big thing Snorri learned during the Quest was that the Ancestors were the Foundations of the Karaz Ankor and that they expected the Beardlings to build on top of their work to eventually surpass them I mean Snorri himself proved it was possible with the Chainforger, so no a standard does exist that has been mentioned before.
 
Did he see him as Heir as Snorri interprets it

Okay, so I just had an idea and I'm not trying argue for refuse side but I'm just curious what others think. The poem says "To claim the Hammer is to claim the seat of one Lost." and Snorri thinks it's "hammer=Durin's heir=Thungni's heir" which totally makes sense but are we sure seat of lost in this case is the one of Thungni's heir?

Tho Durin was Thungni's heir in everything that matters he also had many other things going for him like brotherhood and constellation. Can it be Snorri hyper-focused and seat refers to some other role of the one Lost?
 
The problem comes down to this: How did Thungi see Durin's position? Did he see him as Heir as Snorri interprets it, or did he see him as something else?

We know the guild's position on this, but Thungi... he never said shit.
It doesn't matter what Thungni thought of it. Snorri is going to act based on his interpretation of Thungni. The guild is going to do the same, so is everyone else. It's not an problem for the quest itself, it's a point of curiosity for players to wonder about.

It all boils down to

"Do you want the power and the responsibility and pressure that comes with it, or do you want to go on as before?"
 
I fundamently disagree that snorri wont be able to grow and meet the standards and if so then being a ancestor god is also impossible for him
Snorri's definition is that he maintains the same standard day 1 as heir.
Him growing into it 100, 200 or 1000 years ago isn't a solution.
Not really.

The contradiction is that his definition is too basic to cover this scenario rather than in the difficulty. TBF that is a holdver from an earlier part of the quest where our assumptions fit the game that was played.
No, Snorri's definition does cover this:
If you wanna be bold insane, by Snorri's own metrics if anyone else had done what Thungni did as a way of determining their heir, they would not be adequately preparing them.

but He's Him.
And if he can't put the blame on his god, then theres only one other place the blame can go.
E:
Okay, so I just had an idea and I'm not trying argue for refuse side but I'm just curious what others think. The poem says "To claim the Hammer is to claim the seat of one Lost." and Snorri thinks it's "hammer=Durin's heir=Thungni's heir" which totally makes sense but are we sure seat of lost in this case is the one of Thungni's heir?

Tho Durin was Thungni's heir in everything that matters he also had many other things going for him like brotherhood and constellation. Can it be Snorri hyper-focused and seat refers to some other role of the one Lost?
There isn't really any other seat that it could be referring to, there are precious few formal positions in the Runesmiths guild.
 
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I do want to point out that Snorri is capable of change - such as recognizing that Karstah is his daughter, or us voting that he is open to the idea of romance, as long as he isn't forced to. As such, I think if you want Snorri to change how he thinks about heir-ship, you should pick the option wbich includes him becoming the heir.

And, well, I just think that title of the Heir of Thungni is cool as shit.
 
[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you


The ancestors want us to be *better* then even them. Lets be better
 
Okay, so I just had an idea and I'm not trying argue for refuse side but I'm just curious what others think. The poem says "To claim the Hammer is to claim the seat of one Lost." and Snorri thinks it's "hammer=Durin's heir=Thungni's heir" which totally makes sense but are we sure seat of lost in this case is the one of Thungni's heir?

Tho Durin was Thungni's heir in everything that matters he also had many other things going for him like brotherhood and constellation. Can it be Snorri hyper-focused and seat refers to some other role of the one Lost?
Yeah I had this thought yesterday.

The biggest point of evidence I have for this not being related to Durin, is simply what does Durin have to do with the hammer besides it being his dad's?
 
Right here's a few questions of the poems for people to consider and thank you very much soulcake for putting them all in one place.

So anyway, yesterday I speculated that the trials here were much more to do with perception and understanding of the self on a metaphysical level particularly one's understanding of what made a Dawi, the poems I feel support this interpretation, especially the middle and final one.

By completing the trials Snorri has demonstrated that he knows/understands stone, knows and truth and falsehood which lets him understand the self and thus Embodies Us which is Dawi?

In that case, what's the Truths and what's the Falsehoods? Like I feel that's probably the easiest part to determine.

Durin was supposed to Inherit The Hammer of Thungni as you know being the Heir.
Maybe? Who knows, the only example we have to point too is Whitebeard, and the only thing of his that seems to have come from his dad is the Throne. He's his heir, so that kinda works out, but that's kingship vs Runesmith, inherently craftsmen.
 
Not mentioning the poems is a funny statement since they directly imply that the one who takes up the hammer takes durins position, which contradicts the refuse option.

The better reason not to mention them publically(or in front of people who arent yorri or alric) would be the lack of proof about what they said, since the to claim the hammer means to hold truth and dispute falsehood.
 
Hey @soulcake , whenever you do the final tally, be careful to use the chapter's threadmark as the vote's starting point, not your threadmark about "Points about the Vote" threadmrk. Right now it doesn't change the final result, but it could.
 
I'm actually amazed that the thread even has had refuse pull ahead given that amassing every scrap of personal power they can get unless the QM explicitly states that it's a bad idea is just. The nature of things.

Also, am I the only one who thinks that Thungi really, REALLY, could not give less of a damn if his heir makes it official and deals with the political shitstorm or instead keeps quiet about it and tries to be an exemplar of what a dwarf would be?

Because this is all Snorris interpretation and deeply informed by both his fears, expectations, and his - let's be frank - hubris. Because I think there absolutely is a bit of hubris in either option.

Regardless, I really think what Snorri thinks an heir is and what Thungi thinks an heir is are very different things.

Which is a big part of me going refuse tbh. It really feels like things are going to become all about the political side, and I personally like the rune stuff and learning side far more. Yeah we're still going to get both, but I suspect this will radically shape the direction of the quest, and I'm not excited for waiting for years doing stuff I'm less interested in just for a slightly better chance at changing war of the beard.

I also think this will blow up for other reasons, but not the time.
 
[X] Void

This entire votes a mess, and become something metawise I want nothing to do with. I don't like that it's become driven by the idea of self important, narcissistic rejection of legacy under the assumption of "being better" that a lot of people like to pat themselves on the back about online rather than Snorri himself and his relationship to the legacies that he is the most generous beneficiary of.

It's tainted.
 
@Dark as Silver

Yea Snerra would be Better but I have already seen what happens without an heir in cannon, we are risking a schism/ civil war but we were doing so anyway with cannon timeline and we are doing notting tò mitigate it.
Plus this put US in a position to play the big events.
Like It would be hard for soul not have US interact with malekit as heirs
 
Maybe? Who knows, the only example we have to point too is Whitebeard, and the only thing of his that seems to have come from his dad is the Throne. He's his heir, so that kinda works out, but that's kingship vs Runesmith, inherently craftsmen.
Now lets be fair here.
He inherited so many artifacts that millenia later, Gharl Maraz would be something like the fourth preferred weapon.
We've seen some of the stuff he's inherited
It was a miracle you were able to sleep at all last night.

But that's neither here nor there.

You hold the gauntlets with great care, lifting it close so that you may examine it with both your mundane eye and the prosthetic Snerra built for you.

None to be found, or at least they were so small even your eye could not magnify them. It is, practically speaking, flawless.

The maker's mark etched onto one of the finger tips, Thungni's Rune, is all the explanation necessary really.

Snorri Whitebeard holds to his promises.

You would have loved nothing more than to speak with the King himself about them, but the conclave between the monarchs understandably take precedence over satisfying your curiosity.

The pair were collectively named the Rikkenbaki, and according to the steward they not only multiplied the King's strength several times over, but they also let him wield any weapon, even one he had never seen before, with unmatched skill and ease. As you examine the Runes inscribed on both gauntlets, most beyond your ability to comprehend save for one notable exception. One of the Runes, etched into the palm of the right gauntlet, is reminiscent of a Rune you know of at least theoretically.

Dolgi's proposed Master Rune of Featherweight.

Not really though of course, by the looks of things your best guess is that its a simple matter of parallel development. You can also see several structural similarities with more general weight manipulation Runes. Making things lighter so you could carry more isn't exactly a new idea after all. Dolgi's is only novel in the sense that it means to undergo a far more comprehensive level of manipulation than what most other Runesmiths considered worthwhile. To think that Thungni already had something up His sleeve isn't too shocking.

You commit the image of the gauntlets, and associated thoughts sprung from it, to memory.

A part of you wants to show this to Dolgi, as his teacher you want nothing more than for him to succeed after all, but another part shakes its head. Aside from the few time he's come to you for assistance, something which you can tell at least subconsciously galls him, your apprentice is determined to reach this milestone on his own. To create something for his family with his own two hands, insomuch as is possible anyway.

And who are you to deny him that?

Moreover, you're not particularly worried that Dolgi will get stuck or fail, you taught him better for one thing, but more importantly you know he's skilled enough to overcome such a challenge.

Only a matter of time.

Putting down the gauntlets, you move on to the next item.

You hold one of Grimnir's axes in your hand.

Carried north by its intended holder, brought south by His son, and now wielded by His nephew.

It does not make you experience odd visions as Zharrvengryn did, it does little save exist. Resting in your hands as if it were a regular old axe.

And that's the crux of it.

Because this was no mere axe.

A weapon forged and wielded by the Ancestors aside, you hold a physical impossibility.

This weapon should have exploded into shards of molten metal, cracked open a hole in reality and released some fel beast from the nether onto the mortal plane for the sheer hubris its construction represents. It should not work, should not even exist, and yet it stares you in the eye and seems to cackle at how it throws everything you think you know on its head.

A Wutroth handle, wrapped in leather, supports a double bladed axe head made of Gromril. Gold decorates its surface, holding the leather in place and etched into the Gromril in beautiful geometric patterns with a Ruby embedded on the axe shoulder as the centerpiece. The glow of the Runes is subtle, the small lights emanating from several parts of the patterning on the axe serving as the only hint to their existence until the weapon is swung, wherein they make their presence known to all by blazing to the fullness of their power.

Everything in its construction is perfectly within the means of any Runesmith to acquire, and maybe that is the point. Every last aspect of this axe is perfection incarnate; as if drawing the very idea of what an axe, and the materials that make it up, is from a Dwarf's mind and imprinting it upon reality.

Plain.

And yet Urkdrengi, the Foefeller, manages to not only break the Rule of three, but does so with multiple Master Runes as well.

Just Gromril, Wutroth, and Gold.

Grungni needed nothing more to create a weapon worthy of His Brother, to build an artifact that is only lesser to Azamar, and so greatly eclipses the work of the greatest Runelords, living and dead, that it makes you all appear like mere apprentices.

Oh the sacrifices you'd make to know how the Ancestor made this possible, how much more you'd give to learn how to do it yourself.

You know you have no hope of uncovering this weapon's mysteries, but you nevertheless spend most of your allotted time dedicated to trying. Your best guess is that one of the Master Runes shares a tenuous connection to the Rune of Cleaving, another to the Master Rune of Currents, and another to the Rune of Grimnir himself and a final two Runes who's purpose remains a mystery. It is difficult to tell where one Rune ends, and where another begins, all of them seeming to overlay with one another in some way to help create the geometric patterns on the axe's cheeks. How that was done is in itself another mystery, all conventional wisdom says such a thing cannot be done but whats one more on top of the massive pile of laws this weapon breaks? Perhaps another bit of skill Grungni wished to display, perhaps some secret to how the weapon does not destroy itself given the amount of power running through it? Who can say?

So now you're left wondering, if Gromril is a perfectly suitable material to hold more than three Runes, that it can in fact contain all that power, why can you not manage the same? Grungni is an Ancestor and many of the rules that apply to you do not to Him, but you can't help but wonder if the fault may instead lie with you and not the materials you use.

All you know is that Grungni, and most likely Thungni, can do with Gromril what you nor any other Runesmith can do even with the aid of Adamant.

When you leave the home of Snorri Grungnisson, the memory of that axe weighs heavy on your mind.
 
This is not intended to sway votes, just something I thought of:

Yorri would say refuse. He was unhappy that we joined the Burudin. This is even more political than that.
 
[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
@Dark as Silver

Yea Snerra would be Better but I have already seen what happens without an heir in cannon, we are risking a schism/ civil war but we were doing so anyway with cannon timeline and we are doing notting tò mitigate it.
Plus this put US in a position to play the big events.
Like It would be hard for soul not have US interact with malekit as heirs
Nobody has actually drawn a line between there being an heir and canon events being averted so please go ahead, fill in the gaps, show me the broad strokes of your master plan.
It seems very reasonable to me that with an heir canon can proceed very much in the same vein.
...
However in soulcake canon we can assume that Kazador Ironwill would have been heir if Snorri hadn't beaten him to it, so.... I guess we should actually do the opposite of whatever he would do?
 
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