RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I'm leaning towards voting heir (man what a few hours will do), because right now its more interesting to me.

But, I'll note that again heir doesn't necessitate being equal to the ancestor. Snorri Whitebeard's great, but I don't think anyone's claiming he's his parents yet.

Even if all it equates to is Snorri gets a final say in deliberating on guild matters...honestly would that be so bad?

Snorri has made himself incredibly politically neutral, he's a figure of respect and weirdness to the radicals and the straight-laced, so I think most would trust him to not be biased in rulings.

And that's assuming it comes to anything at all since...well someone else got there for me.

This strikes me as important. Claiming Thungi intended the inheritor of his hammer to be his heir relies purely on people believing Snorri, and there is an entire power bloc that is very, very invested in not doing that, centred around not liking the runiversity.

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This is why I think its not as big a deal as people are claiming.

What I think is going to happen is the proof of the hammer will make even dawi go...maybe.

And retroactively the runeforger could be seen as a sign.

But he still needs to demonstrate it. To perform. That's what I think alchemy would be.

And frankly...good. I think there does need to be opposition.

 

[Dark as Silver]

I no longer think heir or not has anything to do with Thungi or Durin, but everything to do with Snorri and the Karaz Ankor. This is a decision born of expectations and cultural context, way more than I think it is an intentional whatever.

So lets dispense with the idea that this will "lock out" Snorri from the thread's grand ambitions in a direct sense. What its doing is changing Snorri's relationship with the Karaz Ankor and his fellow runesmiths, but that I feel is mostly separate to what whatever it is Thungi intended here.

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Is this a change of topic from what we were discussing or are you now responding to the thread at large?

Errr, I don't think it has to lock out the grand ambitions.
But I do think this puts us on a sliding scale where we decide how much less we're going to put the envelope.
This is mostly for game reasons, if we were going purely by this statement

Half of Karstah's life rn is doing your express bidding, the other half is trying to do it without instruction. Because that's what she was taught an heir is meant to be.

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Then I'd assume that Snorri felt the need to immediately align his opinions with the last known best guess of Thungni's. However to keep player agency I think there must be some flex in what he decides.
Furthermore as this one shows

-- If I had to use a metaphor. Then imagine a family restaurant. The master is the owner and head chef. His students all work at the restaurant. His students have the choice of staying there or leaving and making their own restaurant that can be as related to their teachers as they want. An heir literally takes up the Master's job when he retires, he continues to use his recipes. Stuff inevitably changes at the restaurant, but its akin to a Ship of Theseus situation.

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that doesn't mean he has to be there forever and ever.
So I do think the most politically polarising ambitions would be tabled for an unknown period of time, but I think they'd be back eventually.

 

[Evillevi]

This strikes me as important. Claiming Thungi intended the inheritor of his hammer to be his heir relies purely on people believing Snorri, and there is an entire power bloc that is very, very invested in not doing that, centred around not liking the runiversity.

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As pointed out, that is not a big obstacle. It might take a few turns, but Snorri is legitimately one of the few people with the qualification to hammer it in and the 2nd generation won't deny us as a whole because Thungni was eccentrict enough to attempt this weird ass way of selecting an heir.

 

[MightbeaMimic]

I'm leaning towards voting heir, because right now its more interesting to me.

But, I'll note that again heir doesn't necessitate being equal to the ancestor. Snorri Whitebeard's great, but I don't think anyone's claiming he's his parents yet.

Even if all it equates too is Snorri gets a final say in deliberating on guild matters...honestly would that be so bad?

Snorri has made himself incredibly politically neutral, he's a figure of respect and weirdness to the radicals and the straight-laced, so I think most would trust him to not be biased in rulings.

And that's assuming it comes to anything at all since...well someone else got there for me.

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Honestly I think being heir would be far less interesting. It'd probably force us to get more involved in the political shit

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

I am concerned about our great accomplishments being reduced to "as expected of the heir of Thungni" I suppose.

But not claiming it is going to leave the seat forever unfilled, as it was in canon.

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I don't believe that this is a one or done deal. I have very little reason to suspect that. The Karaz Ankor is already a different beast from canon.

 

[allmightytoaster]

This is why I think its not as big a deal as people are claiming.

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That's not what I would take away from that at all. It's going to be an incredibly big deal, just a divisive one. Pretty much everyone in the guild has formed an opinion on the Runiversity and its countermovement, wether voiced or not. To one side, it's vindication. To the other, someone is lying claiming heirship to an ancestor god. These are the people who thought Snorri disseminating the chainforger was insultingly arrogant enough to throw hands over it. I don't think their reaction is going to be shrugging and moving on, especially the ones who think Snorri was making a powerplay with the runiversity as is.

 

[Dark as Silver]

I am concerned about our great accomplishments being reduced to "as expected of the heir of Thungni" I suppose.

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Welcome to the life of Snorri Whitebeard.

 

[MightbeaMimic]

That's not what I would take away from that at all. It's going to be an incredibly big deal, just a divisive one. Pretty much everyone in the guild has formed an opinion on the Runiversity and its countermovement, wether voiced or not. To one side, it's vindication. To the other, someone is lying claiming heirship to an ancestor god. These are the people who thought Snorri disseminating the chainforger was insultingly arrogant enough to throw hands over it. I don't think their reaction is going to be shrugging and moving on, especially the ones who think Snorri was making a powerplay with the runiversity as is.

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Yeah, frankly I think Snorri is the wrong dwarf to take on the mantle. Not because he isn't a skilled enough Runelord but because he's divisive already and doesn't really seem to want to lead other runesmithd

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Is this a change of topic from what we were discussing or are you now responding to the thread at large?

Errr, I don't think it has to lock out the grand ambitions.
But I do think this puts us on a sliding scale where we decide how much less we're going to put the envelope.
This is mostly for game reasons, if we were going purely by this statement

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More general apologies.

As for how much we're going to push the envelope again that's highly subjective, so I'm thinking of it more as a potential scale for envelope-pushing. Taking the heir position gives Snorri scale and influence to enact changes over a potentially much bigger area, or keep things the same. Refusing I think will keep it mostly fairly localised.

Honestly I think being heir would be far less interesting. It'd probably force us to get more involved in the political shit

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Why? Is there any reason Snorri might be forced out of his workshop involuntarily for politics outside of the one event that I think he has to attend (not 100% sure)? He'd still be a rune lord and permitted the rights and privileges that come with that office, which seem to include being allowed to lock themselves up in their hole and not come out for as long as they please

I am concerned about our great accomplishments being reduced to "as expected of the heir of Thungni" I suppose.

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From dawi that's elevating it in their minds. They don't really think of anything they do as worthy compared to the ancestor gods stuff, so "as expected as the heir of an ancestor" is probably the highest compliment they can give IMO.

That's not what I would take away from that at all. It's going to be an incredibly big deal, just a divisive one. Pretty much everyone in the guild has formed an opinion on the Runiversity and its countermovement, wether voiced or not. To one side, it's vindication. To the other, someone is lying claiming heirship to an ancestor god. These are the people who thought Snorri disseminating the chainforger was insultingly arrogant enough to throw hands over it. I don't think their reaction is going to be shrugging and moving on, especially the ones who think Snorri was making a powerplay with the runiversity as is.

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mmm My point was more that the amount of immediate influence it gives is I feel a bit overblown, the other political consequences are harder to navigate.

I'm not too worried about hands being thrown, IIRC the Rhunrikibolg brawl is a common practice.

 

[Evillevi]

Then I'd assume that Snorri felt the need to immediately align his opinions with the last known best guess of Thungni's. However to keep player agency I think there must be some flex in what he decides.
Furthermore as this one shows

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I argue that the lack of any real public opinions of Thungni helps.

As a reminder for others Thungni doesn't have enforced neutral positions, he has open ended ones that he has never made an answer to. Very specifically he makes that distinction.

However since he chose us as Heir candidate(amongst others) there's likely going to be a TROLL TONGUE INTERUPT where yorri reminds us that simply picking a potential heir implies that Thungni accepts our position as valid in places where he made no comment.

I am concerned about our great accomplishments being reduced to "as expected of the heir of Thungni" I suppose.

I don't believe that this is a one or done deal. I have very little reason to suspect that. The Karaz Ankor is already a different beast from canon.

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The trials collapsed.

It's not guaranteed but it is unlikely that a Heir candidate as strong as us would appear.

That's not what I would take away from that at all. It's going to be an incredibly big deal, just a divisive one. Pretty much everyone in the guild has formed an opinion on the Runiversity and its countermovement, wether voiced or not. To one side, it's vindication. To the other, someone is lying claiming heirship to an ancestor god. These are the people who thought Snorri disseminating the chainforger was insultingly arrogant enough to throw hands over it. I don't think their reaction is going to be shrugging and moving on, especially the ones who think Snorri was making a powerplay with the runiversity as is.

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Note that there's a third part , the 2nd generation , who are pretty neutral outside of interpreting and making advice on what THungni's will likely was.

Convincing them would rapidly convince everyone that we are at least much more legitimate than Alric. It'll take a while but it's likely to happen since we are legitimately within the Range of Thungni's actions.

 

[yannoshka]

My reasoning is beyond simple, and quite likely stupid and silly, but, at the end of the day, it is what drives me, and in this case I chose to be stupid and silly, so please do not respond to me, or use me as an argument for or against whatever point y'all want to make.
Except for silliness and shenanigans. I'm up for those.

So, I am voting no, because I like being Yori's eternal apprentice and unofficial heir in the path of odd and esotheric.
I want us to continue the legacy of odd, cool, respectable, weirdoism.

TL/DR I don't want us going mainstream.
Yorri and the Odds should keep to the alt/prog/punk/grunge

 

[OhNoMySanitea]

As for how much we're going to push the envelope again that's highly subjective, so I'm thinking of it more as a potential scale for envelope-pushing. Taking the heir position gives Snorri scale and influence to enact changes over a potentially much bigger area, or keep things the same. Refusing I think will keep it mostly fairly localised.

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Maybe, but it also limits how much we can push the envelope, when we've been doing pretty damn good with our more radical choices so far. Taking on the title of Thungi's Heir, even if its purely on Snorri's own mind, is going to push his decisions in general to more emulate Thungi, which certainly is quite a few steps back from the radical approach we've been taking.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Prove it. I don't believe that this is a one or done deal.

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Bit hard to demonstrate since I think Durin's a non-canon creation.

However since he chose us as Heir candidate(amongst others) there's likely going to be a TROLL TONGUE INTERUPT where yorri reminds us that simply picking a potential heir implies that Thungni accepts our position as valid in places where he made no comment.

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Someone brings up one of these ideas Snorri looks at them and goes "No comment."

Someone askes whether his methods for runecrafting are superior to all others and he goes "clearly not."

They're definitely issues, but I think they're manageable.

Yorri and the Odds should keep to the alt/prog/punk/grunge

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This is legit reasoning

Maybe, but it also limits how much we can push the envelope, when we've been doing pretty damn good with our more radical choices so far. Taking on the title of Thungi's Heir, even if its purely on Snorri's own mind, is going to push his decisions in general to more emulate Thungi, which certainly is quite a few steps back from the radical approach we've been taking.

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Why? Taking this on doesn't necessitate stopping what Snorri is personally doing IMO. He can't be Thungi he's barely shared more than a dozen words with the man, he can't share his mind. The position and the responsibilities it comes with those he can manage as best he can, but he can't ever really emulate Thungi and I think he knows that.

 

[Evillevi]

Someone brings up one of these ideas Snorri looks at them and goes "No comment."

Someone askes whether his methods for runecrafting are superior to all others and he goes "clearly not."

They're definitely issues, but I think they're manageable.

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Lol thats true.

More seriously there's no real political requirement beyond keeping the guild and art in working condition and preventing Grudge Spirals. There's politics but not in the way that gets too deep into our AP hell

 

[Voikirium]

I am still bullish on being heir since I Think It's Neat but I am still hopeful we can end up as the Ancestor God of Alchemy or something.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

More seriously there's no real political requirement beyond keeping the guild and art in working condition and preventing Grudge Spirals. There's politics but not in the way that gets too deep into our AP hell

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Pretty much what I'm thinking. Assuming nothing else changed the only major time I'd see the heir position coming into major power is in the aftermath of the war of the beard and the start of the time of troubles when that position could be leveraged to prevent the excessive loss of rune lore in some way.

But unless Snori tries to make it something more then the big risk is that others will try to do that for him, but they can be shut down.

This I think is also helped by Snorri's relative isolation, most of the time he simply won't be contactable so the guild can keep on being the guild.

I am still bullish on being heir since I Think It's Neat but I am still hopeful we can end up as the Ancestor God of Alchemy or something.

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Nothing says we can't do that too IMO.

 

[MagnificentMind]

I am still bullish on being heir since I Think It's Neat but I am still hopeful we can end up as the Ancestor God of Alchemy or something.

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Being the heir doesn't prevent us from achieving that goal though? Short of us doing such a bad job we start a civil war this only adds to our achievements and growing our renown.

 

[Narasan]

Are enough of them going to believe us? Thats my one worry. This will hurt dwarfsanta. I just think the preventable deaths would hurt more. But if we dont get enough people to believe us, the amount of people we can save is not increased. I just fear that this will not actually give us more political power, because we have no proof.I am unsure since soulcake repeatedly pointed out that we have np proof, and that this decision is importand for us. Us. Not nessecarily the dawi.

Im still thinking at this point.

 

[Fenrir44]

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
Vote's early, but its less then 20 minutes until its officially open, and for the next 5 hours I'm going to be busy going to classes before then needing to work on a project, so I think in this case I should be able to cast early on this one.

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Like the enthusiasme but the voting is not yet open

 

[soulcake]

I can share some of this now that the trials are over. #DiscordDump

How'd Kazador do

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Pretty okay. He got to Might, which he auto cleared.

How did that Trial work anyway?

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One part gear check, one part skill check. If your gear was killy enough you could get down to activating just 1 Gronti. After that, its a check to see how swole you are without gear. The Gronti all had a few set levels of challenge that they would go through as a combatant fought them and proved they were able to handle the challenge.

Kazador autopassed. He literally pinned a Gronti at max rating to the floor without any active gear.

in contrast you got a little over half for the Gear check, and really struggled with the Skill check

How did Kazador autopass?

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He is very killy. Like, straight up more lethal than you, even if you can bring your lethality to bear on a larger scale. He kills beastmen warherds on his own. If he didn't get pinned with Ironwill, his title would be Beastbane or something similar. He hates Beastmen, more than you hate the Bloodletters and Bloodthirster that were part of your wife's death.

How well would he have done on the other Trials?

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Similar but different to Snorri. The martial focused trials would be cakewalk. Stuff like Concealment and Vision would be tougher.

Can we research the hammer

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It'll be like Kradskonti. Which I guess I can now reveal since you'll see it next turn, but research gives u a buncle of random procs.

How do we unlock more hammer abilities

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Not by researching it. You'll find out.

how would a naked Grimnir do in this trial?

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Ancestral Hallpass.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Not by researching it. You'll find out.

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If you say hit things with it

Nah I'm joking. Pure guessing I'm thinking it'll let itself do more based on criteria unknown to us. Dunno if it can think, but I'm not willing to assume it doesn't have some kind if understanding.

He is very killy. Like, straight up more lethal than you, even if you can bring your lethality to bear on a larger scale. He kills beastmen warherds on his own. If he didn't get pinned with Ironwill, his title would be Beastbane or something similar. He hates Beastmen, more than you hate the Bloodletters and Bloodthirster that were part of your wife's death.

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Makes sense, killiness ain't exactly Snorri's focus as a rune smith after all.

 

[Ternasta]

But, I'll note that again heir doesn't necessitate being equal to the ancestor. Snorri Whitebeard's great, but I don't think anyone's claiming he's his parents yet.

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I actually think Snorri Whitebeard did become a Ancestor God for his work in unifying Karaz Ankor and his work in diplomancing Elves, but he forcibly erased that when he descended to atone for trusting Malekith. Like a Dawi might blot out a Grudge, he blotted out that part of history to punish himself for his failure. But that's just my theory.

Why? Is there any reason Snorri might be forced out of his workshop involuntarily for politics outside of the one event that I think he has to attend (not 100% sure)? He'd still be a rune lord and permitted the rights and privileges that come with that office, which seem to include being allowed to lock themselves up in their hole and not come out for as long as they please

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And he can hit people with his hammer if they press the issue. Or pocket gravel, with Yorri smacking both parties with troll tongue to boot.

 

[Cheap Orange Knofe]

Beastbane

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NO. HERDKILLER



Can we get Karstah or Snerra to do the Heir thing?

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I actually think Snorri Whitebeard did become a Ancestor God for his work in unifying Karaz Ankor and his work in diplomancing Elves, but he forcibly erased that when he descended to atone for trusting Malekith. Like a Dawi might blot out a Grudge, he blotted out that part of history to punish himself for his failure. But that's just my theory.

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Now that...is a theory we have no means of answering

My personal view is that he's somewhere on the edge of one, but I dunno how descending works for ancestor gods since we dunno if they ascended to begin with

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

From dawi that's elevating it in their minds. They don't really think of anything they do as worthy compared to the ancestor gods stuff, so "as expected as the heir of an ancestor" is probably the highest compliment they can give IMO.

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The framing matters in terms of building a legend imo. Take inventing the chainforger. For Snorri it was disbelief that a rando runelord managed to match the Ancestors in this one single way. If he was the official heir, the response would instead have been "as expected of the heir of Thungni" and chalked it up the the relation to Thungni more than the skill of Snorri himself. We know narratives matter metaphysically and the former leads to forging your own legend while the latter is hitched to Thungni alone. It's the same as everyone going of course Whitebeard will take Grungni's mantle, he's the rightful heir and son of Grungni rather than him taking it of his own merits. The personal achievements would forever matter less than the relation to the Ancestor in question.