RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[DrWalpurgisnacht]

Well...holy fuck!

Have no idea what way any of us should be voting here--head says claim the will, heart says leave it--but I'm excited to see whatever the result is.

 

[LysanderArgent]

Honestly what is Snorri supposed to be doing as Thungi's Heir that he isn't already doing? He researches, teaches, crafts, and fights.

That being said. Listening to soulcakes words is making me reconsider my position.

@soulcake This is a massive point to me. Did Snorri believe he was accepting to become the Heir before a point of no return? Is his interpretation that he is Heir something he only thinks in retrospect or is this something he figure out before and kept going? Did he take the Hammer believing that it makes him Heir?

 

[Rended Space]

It wouldn't do much to an elemental, since it's a construct that doesn't have much in terms of willpower.

As for tattoos, we're not that radical.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough about the tattoos, though maybe we could add the combo to one of the stones we use to summon the elementals if we ever break Rule of Three. Maybe that could do something interesting?

 

[Dark as Silver]

the good this hammer can do for future decisions and for the dwarf realm)

Click to shrink...

This should be disregarded. We're keeping the hammer in both votes and the only people who are against keeping it are the people who are using this as theatrics to show how opposed they are to being heir and how opposed they are to not being heir.

I don't like your framing of the two options. It sounds like you think we either arrogantly decide we're the most worthy or we arrogantly decide we know better than Thungni.
And another person talking about responsibilities but nobody actually follows through on what those responsibilities are, especially when the best anyone can offer is mediating issues with the lightest possible hand,can I ask a question?
In another 150 ish years when we can potentially make some new Khazagar additions, are people willing to chose not to? To pick to not rock the boat?

I think the last 3 trials showed the most in mindset, while the otehrs showed technical skill

Click to shrink...

Frankly I think the last three trials were one trial split over three chambers so there could be no takebacksies when building the combo, however even when granted they're free, that still only 15% focused on mentality.
Its not really a heavy emphasis on mindset and it only validated what we believe a dwarf to be rather than how we would act as heir which is kinda more of the sticking point.

 

[jjffjhjf]

Apologies, but I do want to respond and note that the argument can very much be made that Whitebeard surpassed both of them. He ruled what is likely undeniably the Dawi's golden age (which he helped build), advanced them to practically the greatest heights they would reach as a civilisation, made their strongest ally in the Elves and eventually died of old age (well...for a time.) These things are of course quite subjective, but I think it a fair interpretation to say he took the raw materials of the Karaz Ankor and did extremely well with them, god or no.

Click to shrink...

Not becoming an Ancestor God pretty clearly shows that in the minds of the karaz ankor, he did not surpass his parents. He just didn't screw up too badly compared to what they'd have done.

 

[Khaos]

Whether Snorri takes the position of heir, nothing will change with it comes to dwarves' reverence for their ancestors and any societal repercussion of that attitude. This broad societal behaviour is independent from Snorri taking the position or not.

Nothing Snorri does or advocates for is incompatible with what is known from Thungni's own behaviour and attitude. Anything Snorri has done and was voted for in the quest can be interpreted as a continuity of Thungni's actions. The recent post from soulcake shows Thungni mostly leading through example and creation, and being mostly hand off otherwise.

It can also be considered that he had his own choice of heir, Durin. The current situation with an empty heir seat can be largely attributed to Durin's ultimate fate, it is the choice he would have made had Durin been still there. Thungni had multiple students and an heir. This is exactly the situation Snorri is in right now.

Most of the changes in Dwarven society from taking that position will be other dwarves looking at what Snorri's acts as the heir of Thungni, it doesn't come with the position of heir by itself.

 

[Guest99]

Honestly, a big reason I want Snorri to be the Heir is because I like the parallel with Karstah trying to live up to the position of Snorri's Heir. Let Snorri suddenly have to worry about filling the shoes of an incredibly old and capable Runesmith he's not sure he can ever live up to, see if that helps him understand the position he's put his daughter in.

 

[Evillevi]

For me the endless burden of the Heir title feels like a great continuation of the idea on what a Runelord is supposed to be.

Thungni asked us, twice, if we wanted more burdens and we said yes.

At the end lay his hammer and a claim on the Seat of Durin. But for each burdern we take we have more and more people continuing where we left of. Snerra and her efforts for our QOL runes, Dolgi's family and the Brana, etc.

And another person talking about responsibilities but nobody actually follows through on what those responsibilities are, especially when the best anyone can offer is mediating issues with the lightest possible hand,can I ask a question?

Click to shrink...

Every X years we do a Conclave and tidy up any new issues that pop up that requires our attention. Our main responsibility I imagine is to not let the Runelords get into a full Grudge Spiral and to keep the GUild/art alive and healthy. Grudges over cookies is okay but Troll Jerky is the superior option.

So less schism politics and more Snorri V snorri politics

Honestly, a big reason I want Snorri to be the Heir is because I like the parallel with Karstah trying to live up to the position of Snorri's Heir. Let Snorri suddenly have to worry about filling the shoes of an incredibly old and capable Runesmith he's not sure he can ever live up to, see if that helps him understand the position he's put his daughter in.

Click to shrink...

That's a fantastic idea

 

[Mr. Idiot]

Hope everyone realises that we get the hammer either way. All the bonuses from the hammer are there no matter the choice. It's not a case of if we chose no we lose the hammer.

Click to shrink...

The hammer belongs with the heir, snorri believes that. So if he denied the role of heir, why should he have the hammer?

I'd like to have a write in of saying nothing or going with *Durin's* heir, but write ins are not permitted, unfortunately.

 

[LysanderArgent]

Honestly, a big reason I want Snorri to be the Heir is because I like the parallel with Karstah trying to live up to the position of Snorri's Heir. Let Snorri suddenly have to worry about filling the shoes of an incredibly old and capable Runesmith he's not sure he can ever live up to, see if that helps him understand the position he's put his daughter in.

Click to shrink...

I will note; that then means Karstah has to live up to Thungi's standards too.

 

[Cecylene]

I will note; that then means Karstah has to live up to Thungi's standards too.

Click to shrink...

All Runelords must live up to Thungni's standards, that's how you become a Runelord.

Living up to Thungni's legacy however is a different topic, but demanding Karstah live up to our chosen burden of Thungni's legacy is like demanding the son of a High King become High King. Amongst the dwarfs that is not how things like that will be done and honestly it's for the best. Let those judged worthy by trial of either the previous Heir or the assembly of Runelords claim the position after Snorri, don't let it be a hereditary position.

 

[Shard]

Are/were we Yorri's heir?

 

[Dark as Silver]

Thungni asked us, twice, if we wanted more burdens and we said yes.

Click to shrink...

lmao. Thungni no. We meant more research backlog. And Shinies to Hunt. Not actual work.

Are/were we Yorri's heir?

Click to shrink...

No, we ere an apprentice not an heir.

 

[MagnificentMind]

The hammer belongs with the heir, snorri believes that. So if he denied the role of heir, why should he have the hammer?

I'd like to have a write in of saying nothing or going with *Durin's* heir, but write ins are not permitted, unfortunately.

Click to shrink...

Exactly, I am uncomfortable with keeping the Hammer if we decide to not be the Heir. It is practically the symbol of office and should belong to the acting Heir, which is Alric at this point in time. Keeping it with us would be like Karl Franz ruling as Emperor but with some Elector Count wielding the Ghal Maraz.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Exactly, I am uncomfortable with keeping the Hammer if we decide to not be the Heir. It is practically the symbol of office and should belong to the acting Heir, which is Alric at this point in time. Keeping it with us would be like Karl Franz ruling as Emperor but with some Elector Count wielding the Ghal Maraz.

Click to shrink...

Doesn't this kind of assume that there would be an heir somewhere else who doesn't have the hammer?
Considering soulcakes response here:

That's an interesting thought.

Another #DiscordDump because I couldn't help myself.

Click to shrink...

I think there are good odds that we're going to see other chosen of Thungni showing up with his armour, or runestaff and so on. Are we going to demand they are all handed off to us as the heir or are we willing to see other artifacts of Thungni floating around in the hands of others?

Besides the only reason it would be weird for the emperor to be missing Ghal Maraz is because there are centuries of tradition establishing it as the Emperors weapon. There isn't a single day establishing Karaz-Kazak-Rhun as the heirs signature weapon, because Thungni was still using it when Durin was presumed to be the heir.

 

[Dutch]

I find the "it could prevent us from becoming an Ancestor" argument interesting, because at the start of the quest we had the chance to become Rune King of Kraka Drakk. We gave up that chance for personal glory so we could focus on our runecraft.

Now we face a similar choice, but in two different facets. You could say that both paths are that same choice from before. But claiming the title could well mean giving up personal glory (potential ancestorhood) for the betterment of the the craft and the guild. As could renouncing glory (the title of heir) in favor of doing his own thing, putting his own freedom above the potential greater good. Both choices can be seen as the selfish path.

So the question then becomes how can Snorri better aid the guild and the Dawi as a whole? Is it by plugging the hole left by Thungni and Durin and being a figure of careful (if inspired) guidance? Or is it by staying on the loose and have more freedom to act as he pleases?

More than anything I can't help but think of Yorri. Yorri would saw his master die, could do nothing to save him and has been seeking to atone ever since.

In a way, Snorri taking up the title would mean Durin's line - nay, perhaps even the original line of succession- is restored. From Thungni to Durin, Durin to Yorri, Yorri to Snorri.

And I can't help but wonder how he'd react to that.

 

[Evillevi]

Doesn't this kind of assume that there would be an heir somewhere else who doesn't have the hammer?
Considering soulcakes response here:

I think there are good odds that we're going to see other chosen of Thungni showing up with his armour, or runestaff and so on. Are we going to demand they are all handed off to us as the heir or are we willing to see other artifacts of Thungni floating around in the hands of others?

Click to shrink...

There's likely 3 potential gifts for the 3 options we could have picked.

But I think the difference is that the text for clue (A hand, pointed down a path) implies that the path in ours is the heir status as it continues down a path

 

[Mr. Idiot]

Doesn't this kind of assume that there would be an heir somewhere else who doesn't have the hammer?
Considering soulcakes response here:

I think there are good odds that we're going to see other chosen of Thungni showing up with his armour, or runestaff and so on. Are we going to demand they are all handed off to us as the heir or are we willing to see other artifacts of Thungni floating around in the hands of others?

Click to shrink...

Sigh

I think they'd all qualify as heirs? Idk man, snorri's got all these preconceptions in his head that make this a pain to deal with in a way that Snorri wouldn't consider wrong.

 

[emberwing]

Honestly I like the idea of becoming heir for a host of reasons most of which I've already seen mentioned but core to it, is that at the end of the day Thungi and Durin both valued independence over everything else. We're already keeping to Thungi's commandments, we're already forging our own path regardless, we're already heavily scrutinized by everyone for skirting the edges. Becoming the heir only really makes people more confused about us being such a weirdly traditional radical.

 

[MagnificentMind]

Doesn't this kind of assume that there would be an heir somewhere else who doesn't have the hammer?
Considering soulcakes response here:

I think there are good odds that we're going to see other chosen of Thungni showing up with his armour, or runestaff and so on. Are we going to demand they are all handed off to us as the heir or are we willing to see other artifacts of Thungni floating around in the hands of others?

Click to shrink...

Possible, yes, but we just don't know what relics exactly and what those trials entailed. What we do know however is that the Hammer was part of a trial to see who was worthy as Heir and as such should go to them as intended. It could be that the trails for the other relics were for tests of knowledge, skill and whatnot to see if they are worthy of the relic. But I doubt it would be to test if they could be the Heir as well. It would not make sense as it would lead to 'two' Heirs showing up and that would create problems for everyone involved.

 

[Fenrir44]

Doesn't this kind of assume that there would be an heir somewhere else who doesn't have the hammer?
Considering soulcakes response here:

I think there are good odds that we're going to see other chosen of Thungni showing up with his armour, or runestaff and so on. Are we going to demand they are all handed off to us as the heir or are we willing to see other artifacts of Thungni floating around in the hands of others?

Besides the only reason it would be weird for the emperor to be missing Ghal Maraz is because there are centuries of tradition establishing it as the Emperors weapon. There isn't a single day establishing Karaz-Kazak-Rhun as the heirs signature weapon, because Thungni was still using it when Durin was presumed to be the heir.

Click to shrink...

I think we would have group of heirs each with there own batch of office forming a council that debate and try to seek out there ancestors will and meaning

 

[Dark as Silver]

There's likely 3 potential gifts for the 3 options we could have picked.

But I think the difference is that the text for clue (A hand, pointed down a path) implies that the path in ours is the heir status as it continues down a path

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure what you're refering to about the hand?

Sigh

I think they'd all qualify as heirs? Idk man, snorri's got all these preconceptions in his head that make this a pain to deal with in a way that Snorri wouldn't consider wrong.

Click to shrink...

Possible, yes, but we just don't know what relics exactly and what those trials entailed. What we do know however is that the Hammer was part of a trial to see who was worthy as Heir and as such should go to them as intended. It could be that the trails for the other relics were for tests of knowledge, skill and whatnot to see if they are worthy of the relic. But I doubt it would be to test if they could be the Heir as well. It would not make sense as it would lead to 'two' Heirs showing up and that would create problems for everyone involved.

Click to shrink...

I think we would have group of heirs each with there own batch of office forming a council that debate and try to seek out there ancestors will and meaning

Click to shrink...

I think we can be reasonably confident that not all trials involved offering the chance to be heir to people taking them. There can be many apprentices but only one heir. Not unless Thungni was deliberately intending to setup confusion and chaos. Or Snorri really misinterpreted the poem.
Now they could all claim they had the offer, but a bald faced lie that they were chosen by god seems dramatic. I'll bring up the quote I had a while ago about it being mental torture to vote against Thungni, I think humans and dwarves are built different about this sort of stuff and I think the chances are pretty low that they'd try.

 

[soulcake]

@soulcake This is a massive point to me. Did Snorri believe he was accepting to become the Heir before a point of no return? Is his interpretation that he is Heir something he only thinks in retrospect or is this something he figure out before and kept going? Did he take the Hammer believing that it makes him Heir?

Click to shrink...

From Trial of Warding

You read over the first few lines on the plaque quietly again, the words hanging heavily in your mind.

After all, how could they not?

Karaz-Kazak-Rhun on its own was already a prize for the ages, but from what you can infer it seems like Thungni intends whoever claims it to also be the frontrunner for the title of His heir. A title that has, officially at least, remained in contention ever since Durin's death. Mostly on account of Thungni's reticence to discuss the subject with anyone else. In lieu of an official declaration the Guild had defaulted to unofficially recognizing the next eldest of Thungni's line, transferring the title to their sibling upon their death rather than their own heir because of the ambiguity of the situation.

And now, here in front of you, was an answer to that question.

Click to shrink...

Emphasis mine.

Snorri came to that conclusion after the thought about the poem more.

 

[soulcake]

[X]

Click to shrink...

[X]

Click to shrink...

The vote isn't open.

 

[Evillevi]

[ ] [Choice] A Question. A puzzle, to be solved.
[ ] [Choice] An Answer. A challenge, conquered.
[ ] [Choice] A Clue. A hand, pointed down a path.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure what you're refering to about the hand?



I think we can be reasonably confident that not all trials involved offering the chance to be heir to people taking them. There can be many apprentices but only one heir. Not unless Thungni was deliberately intending to setup confusion and chaos. Or Snorri really misinterpreted the poem.
Now they could all claim they had the offer, but a bald faced lie that they were chosen by god seems dramatic. I'll bring up the quote I had a while ago about it being mental torture to vote against Thungni, I think humans and dwarves are built different about this sort of stuff and I think the chances are pretty low that they'd try.

Click to shrink...

To me the accompanying text to the 3 choices indicate the nature of the reward.

Our maximum greed (not quite but close enough) option was to take the clue, which had the most potential seeing that it leads to a path we can walk on. I suspect that in this case it meant that we're walking down the path of being an heir to Durin and Thungni. Largely as it's implied to be a continual reward as opposed to the singular or fixed length reward of the other 2 options.

The comma also implies in it's seperation that the nature of the reward is in being "A Hand". Which given what we know of Thungni multiple simple but nested meaning might be related to how the Heir is considered to be the metaphorical right hand of the person they are inheriting from.