RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Doomed Wombat]

mmm the TLDR I'm getting (I might be wrong) Is that Snorri thinks doing this will mean that he can call himself Thungi's heir, and since he found the hammer from Thungi's trial he'd be able to get away with it.

However, what is actually meant by it is fairly ambiguous. There are maybe 3 people alive who can potentially tell us what Durin's seat might refer to*, but we're kinda alone in the dark on this one.

*Yorri, Alrich and Whitebeard and big maybes at that.

I'm still leaning towards no, but no matter how its interpreted Snorri has found the hammer and I'm pretty sure that's going to cause ripples no matter what.

Also to be clear my opinion (based on very little honestly) is that the words have absolutely nothing to do with being Thungi's Heir in relation to the Runesmith's guild. No idea what its referring too, but whatever it was it's something he put in motion before he left and stretches back to his oldest son. Presumably it has something to do with that.

@soulcake apologies if this has already been asked, I'm guessing no matter what the choice is only the very foolish would challenge Snorri's possession of it. Rightfully earned from tests set down by an Ancestor god, to imply that the trials he set down to determine the worth of those he selected were inadequate would be the very height of arrogance etc?

 

[soulcake]

@soulcake apologies if this has already been asked, I'm guessing no matter what the choice is only the very foolish would challenge Snorri's possession of it. Rightfully earned from tests set down by an Ancestor god, to imply that the trials he set down to determine the worth of those he selected were inadequate would be the very height of arrogance etc?

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Correct. Kazador can at least confirm you completed a Trial with Karaz-Kazak-Rhun as its reward. No one can reasonably doubt the words of both you (an odd, but known and reliably odd quantity) and one of Thungni's last chosen Runelord appointees.

But you're Dwarfs.

So still maybe be contested out of stubbornness without conviction.

 

[KingCrimson1081]

So either way depending on the rolls there might still be a split in the guild.

 

[Taijutsu_]

All of these arguments to refuse the title of heir remind me a lot of Snorri (and by extension the player base) refusing Karstah as heir and daughter for a long time despite that being already de facto the truth. Snorri read the plinth saying 'He who draweth this sword shall be the rightful King of England', and still continued the trial and picked up the hammer. That's not the actions of a Runelord that just wanted runecrafting goodies and knowledge (That'd be the other guy).

[X ] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

 

[Derpmind]

Also to be clear my opinion (based on very little honestly) is that the words have absolutely nothing to do with being Thungi's Heir in relation to the Runesmith's guild.

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We've suspected that the Ancestors Gods were seeking successors of some kind before they left. Successors to... something. Not formal positions of guild leadership, but perhaps whatever quality made them Ancestor Gods.

I think this is what Durin's position was supposed to be. Not formal Heirship as Snorri understands it.

 

[Dark as Silver]

So either way depending on the rolls there might still be a split in the guild.

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The risk of a split in the guild has always been there because it was never about this.
A split would not occur because of Snorri becoming the heir.
Snorri getting the heir position was bad for the risk because it removes the potential of someone else who can mediate.
In the event of a split occuring being heir would probably lend more legitimacy and pull undecided runesmiths over to ourside from the center.
If a schism occured due to Snorri previously it would have been a bad (Slayer) end. If a schism occurs while Snorri is heir its probably that tripled even if Snorri isn't the cause because it was his job to hold the guild together.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Correct. Kazador can at least confirm you completed a Trial with Karaz-Kazak-Rhun as its reward. No one can reasonably doubt the words of both you (an odd, but known and reliably odd quantity) and one of Thungni's last chosen Runelord appointees.

But you're Dwarfs.

So still maybe be contested out of stubbornness without conviction.

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Excellent, wouldn't be dawi otherwise just not really a plausible risk in a legal sense. + there's presumably a few others he gave hints too in order to back us up.

Anyway this does make the point that even if we claim the title I imagine plenty of dawi won't listen to us at least not without effort. Look at the transition from Grungi to Whitebeard.

So either way depending on the rolls there might still be a split in the guild.

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I mean it depends on how violent the reaction might be and how much power comes with the position. I'm thinking probably less than we think.

Snorri read the plinth saying 'He who draweth this sword shall be the rightful King of England', and still continued the trial and picked up the hammer. That's not the actions of a Runelord that just wanted runecrafting goodies and knowledge (That'd be the other guy).

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I want to point out we don't really know what that means, that's just what Snorri thinks it means and a way he can leverage it.

I'm increasingly less against the idea as I think about it and I do want to make the point that even if we say nothing and refuse it, people will still come to their own conclusions as well.

We've suspected that the Ancestors Gods were seeking successors of some kind before they left. Successors to... something. Not formal positions of guild leadership, but perhaps whatever quality made them Ancestor Gods.

I think this is what Durin's position was supposed to be. Not formal Heirship as Snorri understands it.

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Makes sense, I have my doubts its that straightforward, but its definitely not as obvious as simple inheritance.

 

[Cecylene]

I mean I'll say it again. Half of Karstah's life rn is doing your express bidding, the other half is trying to do it without instruction. Because that's what she was taught an heir is meant to be.

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I've always imagined Snorri to be basically trying to do better than Thungni's implied bidding but he is still functionally on the path of emulating the Ancestor in many ways regardless of being someone who declares for the position of Heir or not.

Snorri is radical in his approach to furthering the lines of research because of how he views the limitations of following the strictest interpretation of Runelore Dogma as restrictive to the point of fettering progress but of any Runelord Snorri is also someone who, as the trials displayed, understands the weight of what being a First Among Equals means and how badly failure can echo.

Trying to be better than Thungni would be blasphemous or heretical, any claiming such would normally be a serious breach of social acceptability.

But for an Heir, that's the job. To carry on the work of the Master in their own way, more than an apprentice taking what's been learned in their own direction.

The Heir of Thungni carries on their back the whole tradition of Runelore, to build and expand upon it to the utmost extent possible.

But just as Stoneworking became Runelore and Shaping of Ore, something more can arise.

Let's also not forget.

Thungni was the first to learn how to harness the power of magic both deep and otherworldly but it was only with Grungni's aid that the first Rune was forged and it is by Grungni's lineage that Runesmiths are found at all.

Alchemy is a process, and I think the next major step of Thungni's research being carried on in a way for even non-Runesmiths to tap into the magic of the world without the need for Hashut or the Blood of Grungni.

There are depths that still need to be plumbed, there is always knowledge still left to be gained, and there are bad welds left by the Ancestors. If by tradition they were made then by tradition let them be fixed, be it the constant depreciation of knowledge in Runes or the everlasting pedestal of the Ancestors being a yoke preventing dwarfs from trying to fix what needs fixing. Snorri also gives a way for dwarfs to argue with the Ancestors that they can stomach, if getting yelled at and using an action every couple of turns prevents both a schism and helps the Dwarfs grow beyond the constraints of what they believe by giving them a target they respect but don't worship (yet) that's absolutely a win.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

yes. absolutely it does metaphysically in this setting. Snorri Whitebeard was the Heir of Grugni, the firstborn son of Grugni and Valaya, and he never matches up to his parents.

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Apologies, but I do want to respond and note that the argument can very much be made that Whitebeard surpassed both of them. He ruled what is likely undeniably the Dawi's golden age (which he helped build), advanced them to practically the greatest heights they would reach as a civilisation, made their strongest ally in the Elves and eventually died of old age (well...for a time.) These things are of course quite subjective, but I think it a fair interpretation to say he took the raw materials of the Karaz Ankor and did extremely well with them, god or no.

 

[Evillevi]

Snorri would feel obliged to be more hands-off, more subtle, less inclined to ever directly tell anyone anything and more try to show them by example.

When you're Thungni's Heir you don't tell people what you think. You do things and everyone else sees how awesome the things you did are and how they need to do things like that if they too want to be awesome.

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In honesty I'm not sure how easy this specific idea is.

We are significantly more political than Thungni simply because we did make a lot of positions known that Thungni left open.

 

[Rukia]

The risk of a split in the guild has always been there because it was never about this.
A split would not occur because of Snorri becoming the heir.
Snorri getting the heir position was bad for the risk because it removes the potential of someone else who can mediate.
In the event of a split occuring being heir would probably lend more legitimacy and pull undecided runesmiths over to ourside from the center.
If a schism occured due to Snorri previously it would have been a bad (Slayer) end. If a schism occurs while Snorri is heir its probably that tripled even if Snorri isn't the cause because it was his job to hold the guild together.

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You aren't accepting the fact that if we say "Yeah we're the Heir" Soul has explicitly stated that is our interpretation. And that other people might believe we're lying, or mistaken, or any of hundreds of reasons. This isn't a gimme option, this is throwing a nuclear bomb into the social arena that is the Runesmith community, it's absolutely this that could cause a schism.

 

[MagnificentMind]

On an unrelated tangent to bring back some levity to the discussion. I like to imagine will we're on a quest by Thungi himself to assess our suitability to be his heir and succeeding. Vragni is grumbling in his workshop on how Snorri's deviancy besmirches everything the Ancestor stood for and has taught them

 

[Deadly Snark]

Apologies, but I do want to respond and note that the argument can very much be made that Whitebeard surpassed both of them. He ruled what is likely undeniably the Dawi's golden age (which he helped build), advanced them to practically the greatest heights they would reach as a civilisation, made their strongest ally in the Elves and eventually died of old age (well...for a time.) These things are of course quite subjective, but I think it a fair interpretation to say he took the raw materials of the Karaz Ankor and did extremely well with them, god or no.

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In the long history of the Dawi, The White Dwarf was arguably a better/more worthy God to the People than his Parents. His Spirit was out constantly kicking ass and righting wrongs, always appearing at the Dawi's direst hour.

And while I know that people are still salty on AoS. One of the plotlines in the AoS books involves Thungni openly acknowledging that as an Ancestor God, he and his Siblings had failed in the Age of Chaos. And that the Snorri Whitebeard/The White Dwarf had to be restored so that he could be the Unifying Cultural God of all Dawi cultures.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Another point, and this may just be stupid, but ah well.

To claim the Hammer is to claim the seat of one Lost.

To claim the seat of one Lost is to embody Us.

To embody Us is to be Dawi

To be Dawi is to—

—Resist.

Overcome.

Endure.

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I find it very interesting that the script is apparently refering to Durin with his title the Lost. Khazalid is extremely precise as I understand it so I want to be certain, obviously limitations of language might mean I am barking up the wrong tree.

Edit: never mind I just saw your response saying we don't have the poem. Is there anything about the above which indicates that its actually refering to Durin? Maybe because giving someone the title of the Lost feels like it would be different to saying someone is lost? Feels like the sorta very specific technical difference they'd have.

You aren't accepting the fact that if we say "Yeah we're the Heir" Soul has explicitly stated that is our interpretation. And that other people might believe we're lying, or mistaken, or any of hundreds of reasons. This isn't a gimme option, this is throwing a nuclear bomb into the social arena that is the Runesmith community, it's absolutely this that could cause a schism.

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Eh I think worst case scenario it causes a "prove it" reaction.

 

[Dark as Silver]

In honesty I'm not sure how easy this specific idea is.

We are significantly more political than Thungni simply because we did make a lot of positions known that Thungni left open.

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I imagine that following what soulcake said, Snorri is going to roll back a lot of his positions to something more moderate at least publicly, however some stuff like Khazagar cannot be taken back.
For the sake of this being a game and us having choices, I don't think Snorri will fall into autopilot "What would Thungni do" for every vote however I do think he'd be a lot more constrained, having less room to add stuff than we did for Khazagar in the future.

You aren't accepting the fact that if we say "Yeah we're the Heir" Soul has explicitly stated that is our interpretation. And that other people might believe we're lying, or mistaken, or any of hundreds of reasons. This isn't a gimme option, this is throwing a nuclear bomb into the social arena that is the Runesmith community, it's absolutely this that could cause a schism.

Click to shrink...

Soulcake has said that if its contested it will be without conviction.

Correct. Kazador can at least confirm you completed a Trial with Karaz-Kazak-Rhun as its reward. No one can reasonably doubt the words of both you (an odd, but known and reliably odd quantity) and one of Thungni's last chosen Runelord appointees.

But you're Dwarfs.

So still maybe be contested out of stubbornness without conviction.

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Given that Snorri and Kazador have possibly never ever spoken before they'd be pretty strange pair to setup a conspiracy. And showing up with the hammer is kinda exactly what you'd expect for someone Thungni declared an heir.
E: misunderstood the quote but still hold the position

Another point, and this may just be stupid, but ah well.


I find it very interesting that the script is apparently refering to Durin with his title the Lost. Khazalid is extremely precise as I understand it so I want to be certain, obviously limitations of language might mean I am barking up the wrong tree.

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Yeah it seems we're not inheriting Thungni's position, we're inheriting Durins position as due to inherit from Thungni.
Which has interesting implications for Thungni not being fully gone yet or still having plans.

 

[Rukia]

Soulcake has said that if its contested it will be without conviction.

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He said us keeping the Hammer will be contested without conviction, that says absolutely nothing about our claim to be Heir, go back and read Soul's statement again. It does not say what you seem to think it does.

Yeah it seems we're not inheriting Thungni's position, we're inheriting Durins position as due to inherit from Thungni.
Which has interesting implications for Thungni not being fully gone yet or still having plans.

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That's clearly not what Snorri got from that though, he interpreted it as Heir to Thungi, not Durin's replacement, though we may technically be Durin's replacement by association.

Eh I think worst case scenario it causes a "prove it" reaction.

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The people that agree with us will see someone disagreeing with what they interpret as an actual divine decree, of course that's going to start a shitshow.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Yeah it seems we're not inheriting Thungni's position, we're inheriting Durins position as due to inherit from Thungni.
Which has interesting implications for Thungni not being fully gone yet or still having plans.

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I think there's equally fair interpretations as the Lost referring to either Durin or Thungi themself.

If it is Durin, then the big question is whether or not he was Thungi's heir in a straight sense. His chair's never been claimed and people assume that's because nobody else could claim to be his heir, but I propose the reason might be that he was something completely different.

I'd argue that's why this entire trial was so centred on mindset, it doesn't payout for another Thungi, it does so for someone on the same line of thought as Durin, assuming the Lost is Durin.

Damn you Yorri I want to wring your neck until you tell us what your master was up too!

The people that agree with us will see someone disagreeing with what they interpret as an actual divine decree, of course that's going to start a shitshow.

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Looks at Whitebeard. NGL I'm not too worried about how the dawi will do when it comes to disagreeing with any potential heirs to the ancestor gods, they're already doing it.

 

[Rended Space]

-- New Combo unlocked! Combo, Dawi: [Rune of Worldly Warding, Rune of Inner Courage, Rune of Defiant Stone] All buffs to general toughness and endurace grow in proportion to the wearer's willpower and bravery. Repeated/Continued exposure to spells and items that negatively impact their mental state cause them to become increasingly resistant to those effects. The courage to stare at a world that wishes you dead, then scoff in its face and swear to take it down with you.

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I REALLY wanna see what this does if we carve this into one of our elementals or if we tattoo ourselves with it

 

[Profilozof]

I personaly think that master yorri is just Durin who saw the mess his dad made and get out of dodge

 

[soulcake]

Soulcake has said that if its contested it will be without conviction.

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Not exactly.

This was referring solely to whether anyone would fight you over keeping the Hammer. I said you are in the clear legally and that any opposition is half hearted at best. Kazador will back your claim to it. Morally thats another can of worms.

 

[Dark as Silver]

He said us keeping the Hammer will be contested without conviction, that says absolutely nothing about our claim to be Heir, go back and read Soul's statement again. It does not say what you seem to think it does.


That's clearly not what Snorri got from that though, he interpreted it as Heir to Thungi, not Durin's replacement, though we may technically be Durin's replacement by association.


The people that agree with us will see someone disagreeing with what they interpret as an actual divine decree, of course that's going to start a shitshow.

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Last time we faced a schism soulcake gave us warning and was going to outright veto it because Snorri would die before being the sole cause of a fracture.
If this is a trap vote then whatever, its a sad way for this quest to end but I'm going to trust that Snorri is aware enough to recognise if claiming would cause a schism.

Durin was the heir to Thungni presumably. Becoming Durins replacement means becoming Thungni's heir. Potato potato.
I'm commenting on that fact that the message a guy who is as good as dead is saying take the place of my heir is strange rather than saying take my place, is a strange choice of words. It kinda implies that the probably dead guy with a plan isn't entirely gone yet. That we might be successor, but we're not succeeding just yet.
And well as Doomed has already shown, they aren't sold that the lost is Durin not Thungni.

I'd argue that's why this entire trial was so centred on mindset,

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Huh, I've actually been making the exact opposite argument. That this trial barely tested mindset compared to the amount it tested gear and knowledge.
Could I ask why you think that?

 

[Copperscale]

I REALLY wanna see what this does if we carve this into one of our elementals or if we tattoo ourselves with it

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It wouldn't do much to an elemental, since it's a construct that doesn't have much in terms of willpower.

As for tattoos, we're not that radical.

 

[Noriginality]

I can't keep up with all of the comments on this topic, so I might miss something, but from what I have read, almost every decision and opinion has been based on either meta-knowledge( the good this hammer can do for future decisions and for the dwarf realm) or the restrictions, expectations and lost opportunities ( if we choose to be the heir), but I feel we should consider what would Snorri do, based on personality, character and past actions as both actions gives and lose him opportunities and would be based on atleast some degree of arrogance and ambitious, To pick the Heir is to say that you are deserve that more than others perhaps all other dwarves that are much older and closer to Thungni, To not and reveal what just happened for the past several chapters show that you know more than Thungni and others, that you know something that gives you a reason to defy this duty even your Ancestor God found you worthy of it after all if Thungni did not want you to have it then you would not.


I think we have gone too far in this quest only for us to pick not being the heir, and I feel that to continue wielding the hammer and benefit from it, without accepting the responsibility, scrutiny and expectations it would bring on him, would be too out of character and not to insult him or others that prefer to pick it but it does seem to cowardly and selfish to just benefit from it, He is not the type of dwarf to shirk his responsibilities, (to his great misfortune as his duties are piling high), He is already embroiled in politics as he is a runelord, his works are already being compared to Thungni's and found wanting, not just by other dwarves but also by himself, something that I am quite sure every runesmith/master/lord does to themselves and others by virtue of living in an era where the works and actions of Thungni are still very much recent in the memories of the dwarves.


All of this will be exagerrated if he chooses to be Heir as he will be putting a much brighter spotlight on himself, but It will also happen once they see him wielding the hammer and revealing a way or method to answer something even Durin seems unable to or atleast did not reveal to others, maybe not the same extent but atleast by having the title as an heir it would give the backing to support his decisions, after all if he found a way to solve Durin's problem and solves Thungni's riddle, then that just one more reason why he is the heir and not the other older dwarves.

Also in my opinon, I think Snorri would absolutely hate himself and fall into depression in both decisions, the Title is too large, too significant and restricting, that level of scrutiny, expectations and the judgement of your every move and decisions by the entire living and future dwarves in all kingdom, and if he uses the hammer without picking the title, thinking that he is unworthy and undeserving of it, yet by his actions in solving the riddle and getting to the hammer there is no other way to find something that can judge who should have it as the only option created by the one with greatest right to do so have been destroyed, and he has to live with that.

 

[Evillevi]

Last time we faced a schism soulcake gave us warning and was going to outright veto it because Snorri would die before being the sole cause of a fracture.
If this is a trap vote then whatever, its a sad way for this quest to end but I'm going to trust that Snorri is aware enough to recognise if claiming would cause a schism.

Durin was the heir to Thungni presumably. Becoming Durins replacement means becoming Thungni's heir. Potato potato.
I'm commenting on that fact that the message a guy who is as good as dead is saying take the place of my heir is strange rather than saying take my place, is a strange choice of words. It kinda implies that the probably dead guy with a plan isn't entirely gone yet. That we might be successor, but we're not succeeding just yet.
And well as Doomed has already shown, they aren't sold that the lost is Durin not Thungni.

Huh, I've actually been making the exact opposite argument. That this trial barely tested mindset compared to the amount it tested gear and knowledge.
Could I ask why you think that?

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I think the last 3 trials showed the most in mindset, while the otehrs showed technical skill

 

[Gabriel_TFA]

Will be real with you all. We should have fucking seen that coming FROM a mile away when we first entered the trail, especially with the last 3 trails. We can't break camels back without creating a civil war if we don't choose to be hair. True, Snorri is not forced to be an heir, he can choose. And as Soulcake said, that is Snorri's interpretation that he needs to fit a glove of the heir of Thungi, not that he can grow from the shadow of Thungi. If we choose to be an heir, Snorri will need to realise that becoming an heir doesn't fucking limit him.