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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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IronFist said:
Karaz Ankor did a lot worse in the canon incursion. Maybe he was too busy putting out fires and helping people to write a couple of comprehensive manuals on warfare.
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Its been about 300 years, and he doesn't appear to have left yet. Seems unlikely that he spent all that time fire fighting or that whatever he's been waiting to finish didn't also get pushed down the road to finish if he did have more on his plate. Dwarves pass on when they're ready and not before.
E: I think he also only finished it while in Kraka Drakk, I think most of the work had already been done.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Its been about 300 years, and he doesn't appear to have left yet. Seems unlikely that he spent all that time fire fighting or that whatever he's been waiting to finish didn't also get pushed down the road to finish if he did have more on his plate. Dwarves pass on when they're ready and not before.
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soulcake said:
It is one of the finest work these old hands have forged, though not the one closest to His heart. The wonder of wonders, the shape of all that He is, that They are, made manifest.

It shall be the last these yet mortal hands, already unravelling and only grown worse by this act, shall create as they currently are.
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This is Grungni or Thungni, I think.

External circumstances are forcing his hand, not satisfaction at a job well done.
 
IronFist said:
This is Grungni or Thungni, I think.

External circumstances are forcing his hand, not satisfaction at a job well done.
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From what I can tell the ancestors appear to be being forced to ascend. They don't really have a say in the matter, beyond using sheer stubbornness to stick around as mortals longer than they should be capable of.

It probably has to do with some combination of whatever made them so absurd to begin with combined with the extent of the ancestor worship is making them too much to fit in a mortal body anymore.
 
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Byzantine said:
From what I can tell the ancestors appear to be being forced to ascend. They don't really have a say in the matter, beyond using sheer stubbornness to stick around as mortals longer than they should be capable of.

It probably has to do with some combination of whatever made them so absurd to begin with combined with the extent of the ancestor worship is making them too much to fit in a mortal body anymore.
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Caledor Dragontamer yeeting them out of their bodies.

I SEZ NO INCARNATE GODS!

Edit: which does emphasize dwarf stubbornness. Demons last for hours before the vortex scours them away. The Ancestors have been endured that for three centuries.
 
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Wasn't Valaya canonically sitting in a cave with an escape route for dwarf society or something?

Not sure that explanation can mesh with "The Vortex is making the world uninhabitable for them."

Also it brings up the chicken and egg problem something fierce. Were Thungni and Smednir just born different to Snorri Whitebeard and they where destined to become capital A ancestor gods or did dwarf veneration of them turn them from regular born dwarfs into incarnate gods....
 
Cursix said:
Caledor is actually still around, sorta. His spirit and that of the mages who assisted him are all bound to the vortex rather than having passed on.
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Shall we make some gronti for them to inhabit? That sounds like a fun thing to do!
Its unlikely we'll ever have the time or inclination to do that even if Ultulan was ever opened to us.

.... Oh wait. It was. Dwarves sent a delegation and everything.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Is it purely Divided Loyalties Lore that he's able to influence anything out of the Vortex/Waystone network though?
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I believe I read somewhere that when the Waystone network was functioning properly, he was able to do things and talk to people outside the Vortex, but the damage to the network means he has to focus on the Vortex in canon Warhammer. But it's been a while, and I may be conflating him with the GEoM in WH40K, so take it with a grain of salt.
Cheap Orange Knofe said:
Shall we make some gronti for them to inhabit? That sounds like a fun thing to do!
Its unlikely we'll ever have the time or inclination to do that even if Ultulan was ever opened to us.

.... Oh wait. It was. Dwarves sent a delegation and everything.
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Perhaps we can build up the Waystone network and improve it to the point where the Vortex is stable enough to leave it (although I suspect that'd take a long long time to manage that, and probably the final iteration of Gromril to boot) since it was originally meant to only need maintenance every so often like the Waystones themselves.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Wasn't Valaya canonically sitting in a cave with an escape route for dwarf society or something?

Not sure that explanation can mesh with "The Vortex is making the world uninhabitable for them."

Also it brings up the chicken and egg problem something fierce. Were Thungni and Smednir just born different to Snorri Whitebeard and they where destined to become capital A ancestor gods or did dwarf veneration of them turn them from regular born dwarfs into incarnate gods....
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That is End Times lore from the novels, and that lore is generally ignored/deprecated/yeeted out a window at speed. Quest canon always takes primacy, and in this case we have seen much more support for 'going beyond the bounds of a mortal form' than anything else.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Is it purely Divided Loyalties Lore that he's able to influence anything out of the Vortex/Waystone network though?
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It's purely DL lore and also contradicted by canon, oddly enough.

Morathi hatches a plan to eat the Vortex and become a god in one novel, and when she touches the Vortex, Caledor talks to her, and basically says:

"Okay, I can't actually stop you from doing this, because if I do, the Vortex collapses. But, if the Vortex collapses, I am coming for your ass, god or not."

Morathi, notably, didn't eat the Vortex.
 
BungieONI said:
That is End Times lore from the novels, and that lore is generally ignored/deprecated/yeeted out a window at speed. Quest canon always takes primacy, and in this case we have seen much more support for 'going beyond the bounds of a mortal form' than anything else.
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Or you know. They're in rune warded places where they can totally just ignore being Yeeted until they're needed.
End times lore is weird. How Is Grimnir meeting Gotrek when he's supposed to have gone north to rout the daemons/ barbarians at the gate?
Like really weird.
ArchAIngel said:
It's purely DL lore and also contradicted by canon, oddly enough.

Morathi hatches a plan to eat the Vortex and become a god in one novel, and when she touches the Vortex, Caledor talks to her, and basically says:

"Okay, I can't actually stop you from doing this, because if I do, the Vortex collapses. But, if the Vortex collapses, I am coming for your ass, god or not."

Morathi, notably, didn't eat the Vortex.
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Eventually: ...
Matheld/or Snorri: Okay! Operation fix the waystones and reprogram the Vortex is a GOOooooo!!!1

The Vortex, Ulthulan later.....
Caledor: Sup. I wasn't expecting visitors....
 
BungieONI said:
That is End Times lore from the novels, and that lore is generally ignored/deprecated/yeeted out a window at speed. Quest canon always takes primacy, and in this case we have seen much more support for 'going beyond the bounds of a mortal form' than anything else.
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Yah got a comment for the other half of that question?
Dark as Silver said:
Also it brings up the chicken and egg problem something fierce. Were Thungni and Smednir just born different to Snorri Whitebeard and they where destined to become capital A ancestor gods or did dwarf veneration of them turn them from regular born dwarfs into incarnate gods....
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Or "thats a problem with the theory but *shrug ancestor god weirdness*"?
 
Article:
In spite of being trapped, Caledor was still able to interact with the living world, particularly during Malekith's invasion of Ulthuan during the Great War Against Chaos, when Caledor's spirit was challenged to a game of strategy by Khaine himself, for the fate of Ulthuan.[1a] Knowing that Morathi was keen to undo the Vortex if Malekith succeeded in overrunning Ulthuan, Caledor intervened directly, contacting Morathi in her dreams and warning her that he would undo the Vortex himself, and use its last remaining power to obliterate her. She was sufficiently terrified to abandon her son's invasion force and return to Naggaroth, taking a substantial number of the army's Chaos Marauder allies with her.[6c]


Article:
During the events of Sons of Ellyrion, Caledor is depicted as ghostly pale, his skin near translucent. The meat of his muscles wriggled on his skull, and his eyes were black coal, devoid of life and sanity as he confronted Morathi. Indeed, Morathi claims he was once a fine specimen of an Elf. Tall, broad-shouldered and handsome. To this, Caledor admits he's reminded every day of how deathly he looks, saying he thinks it amuses "Him". When Morathi asks whom he means, he replies: "Death".[3a] Later in the book, Caledor rejuvenates himself off the released magic of the Vortex. His gaunt frame filled out with powerful muscle and youthful flesh. His face bloomed with vitality until he was an Elf in the prime of his life. Eyes that were once black and dead were now sparkling and green, flecked with gold and silver. His lips were full and lush, his hair regrown to its youthful lustre. His voice commanded respect from Elf, Man, and Dragon alike

Caledor is scary.

He's also someone the dwarfs would find eminently acceptable to hold next to Grimnir in terms of importance to the fate of the world.
It also helps that they personally met and exchanged gifts. (and possibly plans).

Edit: what if the gem Grimnir gave Caledor was inscribed with Grimnir's rune (unbreakable and tireless version)?

Or if Caledor's cabal of archmages were arranged in a rune of Grimnir pattern :V
 
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Dark as Silver said:
Yah got a comment for the other half of that question?
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It's an inference from four things:

-The fact that this quest is in the Time of the Ancestors. The End Times are so far away as to be entirely, completely, irrelevant.
-The quest itself directly contradicts the Ancestors maintaining any kind of mortal existence.
-The community on SV is generally extremely critical of End Times lore from the novelizations, because they were terribly written.
-The canon of the quest takes complete primacy, because that's how you write a good quest and how the omake canonicity is effectively treated. This is why the second point is important.

There might be a direct comment one way or the other, but after some looking I don't have one to give you right now and I'm not going to bother looking further. Fundamentally my point hinges on the very clearly established concept of the Ancestors undergoing some kind of inevitable transformation which takes them away from the world in this quest; Valaya being an exception from this conclusion is currently entirely unsupported in the quest itself. And within the quest itself is what matters.

E: Also another thing on the general yeeting of the End Times, if you look around in this thread enough you'll probably find someone else with the same sentiment, in regards to my third thing.
 
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BungieONI said:
It's an inference from four things:

-The fact that this quest is in the Time of the Ancestors. The End Times are so far away as to be entirely, completely, irrelevant.
-The quest itself directly contradicts the Ancestors maintaining any kind of mortal existence.
-The community on SV is generally extremely critical of End Times lore from the novelizations, because they were terribly written.
-The canon of the quest takes complete primacy, because that's how you write a good quest and how the omake canonicity is effectively treated. This is why the second point is important.

There might be a direct comment one way or the other, but after some looking I don't have one to give you right now and I'm not going to bother looking further. Fundamentally my point hinges on the very clearly established concept of the Ancestors undergoing some kind of inevitable transformation which takes them away from the world in this quest; Valaya being an exception from this conclusion is currently entirely unsupported in the quest itself. And within the quest itself is what matters.
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I don't think this answers what I asked.
I understand the reasoning, including dismissing the end times that leads people to the conclusion that the Vortex is forcing the Ancestor Gods to leave. I am not asking about that right now.

The second point was based purely on quest and regular canon. Thungni and Smednir are the younger brothers of Snorri Whitebeard. Do we have an explaination or understanding of what made them different from Snorri such that he does not appear to be considered an Incarnate God, (despite his millenia as Grombrindal being probably the closest any dwarf ever came to being the seventh member of the pantheon) but they were?

As I've said over multiple posts I can see a couple of explainations:
Dark as Silver said:
Thungni and Smednir just born different to Snorri Whitebeard and they where destined to become capital A ancestor gods
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Dark as Silver said:
dwarf veneration of them turn them from regular born dwarfs into incarnate gods..
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Dark as Silver said:
*shrug ancestor god weirdness*
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And I am sure that if I tried I could come up with some more.
I'm just trying to understand your position on this particular topic, I am not currently trying to debunk anything.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Do we have an explaination or understanding of what made them different from Snorri such that he does not appear to be considered an Incarnate God,
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I think soulcake answered this one already.
soulcake said:
In dwarf culture, it often ends up with the younger sons having more leeway in the careers they pursue, and to the eldest son often lies the greatest burden and honour.

Upholding the oaths and responsibilities of his father.
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IronFist said:
I think soulcake answered this one already.
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That is far from an answer. It is a hint, a nudge, a suggestion.

That Snorri may have consciously chosen to have not been an Ancestor god is a possible answer, however that only kicks the option down the line... how did he chose to not be an Ancestor god.
And why didn't or couldn't the other Ancestor Gods choose to not be Ancestors if they found that they wanted to stick around longer.
 
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