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Should the bar of Adamant not be a bigger thing, worth a Legendary Deed or higher, as right now Pure Gromril is the best material know to dwarf-kin and we have improve it?
 
so this void rune we've found seems pretty awesome. Definitely want to know what it does when put on a weapon and mixed with an anti-daemon rune though.

A Master Rune of the Void?, a Rune of Daemonslaying and a Rune of Impact (to make it push harder) might be interesting.

Should the bar of Adamant not be a bigger thing, worth a Legendary Deed or higher, as right now Pure Gromril is the best material know to dwarf-kin and we have improve it?

I suspect that Snorri isn't advertising it, because no self-respecting Runelord can publicise something that involve an incomplete rune that blows itself up.

hmmm we have +2 for every action, so if we do 4 actions that's literally 8, since productivity hits, that's 10 points into it. Thus with our apprentices, that's another +2...so 12. Add in the +5 naturally for the hold to work with, that would be 17. 17+17=34/40 progress done next turn. So not only do we complete OUR part, but get most of the damn work done for the other holds in the north...

that's...fucking terrifying. that means next turn we only need to send our apprentices out to help the hold with 1 action to finish it, unless we want to go all out again for another 17 progress...which would be a 34+17=51/40, that adds up to 123% better then the original cost.

Four actions invested gets two extra actions from productivity, for six, each of which is worth two, so Snorri's efforts would produce 12 progress.
 
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hmmm we have +2 for every action, so if we do 4 actions that's literally 8, since productivity hits, that's 10 points into it. Thus with our apprentices, that's another +2...so 12. Add in the +5 naturally for the hold to work with, that would be 17. 17+17=34/40 progress done next turn. So not only do we complete OUR part, but get most of the damn work done for the other holds in the north...

that's...fucking terrifying. that means next turn we only need to send our apprentices out to help the hold with 1 action to finish it, unless we want to go all out again for another 17 progress...which would be a 34+17=51/40, that adds up to 123% better then the original cost.

That means we MIGHT make the underway a bit larger and more defended then necessary...
DEFENSE-
IN-
DEPTH!!!

then we can go all in for our rune research and the map.
This math has already been done. Multiple times in fact.

In such a situation, I poked at some math in the context of action saving with Productivity procs and got this:

As it stands if Snorri devoted 1 action himself and the apprentice actions into it as a baseline that would mean 5+2(Snorri)+2(apprentices) Progress on the first turn for 9 progress and then once Fjolla and Dolgi leave we'd make 5+2(Snorri)+1(Snerra) for 8 Progress a Turn and then Snerra we can assume leaves on turn 15, removing all apprentice actions and leaving it at 7 progress a turn.

We'd make progress in this way, 9 (Turn 12)+8 (Turn 13)+8 (Turn 14)+7 (Turn 15) = 32 on Turn 15. That's a baseline of four turns to complete it, technically five because it would complete at the end of Turn 15/start of Turn 16 and we couldn't do anything with it until Turn 16. That's one thing, and overall it would take 4 AP on our part and 4 from our apprentices to do it.

The defenses action would likely unlock and for the sake of comparison lets assume it takes as much as Defense In Depth Part 3 with 4 actions.

Totaled together that's 8 of our AP as a baseline, 4 from our apprentices.

If we slammed it and did all in on it every turn until it was complete then:

4 actions into it from Snorri is 6 actions due to Productivity which nets 12 progress, plus 2 from our Apprentices, plus 5 progress for 19 Progress total. That puts it at 11 Progress left on Turn 13.

On turn 13 if we assume we don't have our senior apprentices the count would be 12 progress from us, plus 1 from Snerra, plus 5 progress for 18 Progress. We would complete it with 7 progress overflow. If you make another assumption here and convert the Progress into AP that would be 3.5 AP.

That's not exactly a very helpful result, but it gives an idea on what that 7 progress overflow means in the context of both projects. The important part is that Soulcake was pretty clear that by doing something like this the defenses would be automatically completed. Going all in means devoting 8 of our AP, and then not needing to spend the assumed 4 AP on the defense request. If it didn't we'd need to spend 12 AP, but since it does we only spend 8 of our AP. The same as the baseline. If you count Apprentice AP that's 11 total, slightly less than the baseline.


Here is what applies to doing the Rune Metal this turn and then going all in until we complete it:

On turn 12 it gets 2 progress from apprentice actions, 5 from the Hold, for 7 Progress leaving it at 23. Turn 13 is 12 progress from Snorri, 1 from Snerra, 5 from the Hold for 18 Progress total. That leaves it at 5 Progress remaining. We have two options here.

We can do nothing on turn 14 and it auto completes. We only spend 4 of our actions and 3 of our apprentice actions. Whether this completes the defenses as well is uncertain. I would assume no, so based on my action count assumption the defense action would require 4 more AP. To finish that we would only need to actually spend 2 AP. That leaves us at spending 6 AP and 3 Apprentice actions, better than both actions above.

We can go all in again on turn 14. We spend 8 of our actions and 4 of our apprentice actions in total across Turn 13 and 14. This gives 13 overflow (18-5) on Progress. This completes the defenses as well, so we don't need to spend the 4 AP on it. That leaves us with 8 of our actions spent and 3 apprentice actions. Its not the AP lowest one at 8 of our AP and 4 of our apprentices, but time wise its the same as the one above, and ensures the defenses are completed.

Where the benefits show up are in reducing the amount of turns and thus Random Event Rolls we have to deal with until the Underway and the defenses are complete from five turns to two and in a more far reaching mechanical consequence means our Request category is only filled with the Banner request and the write in template. This effectively saves project space, and pushes the focus towards Research which would be the largest category.


Tl;dr the Rune Metal first option basically means we can end up spending the least amount of our personal AP on the Underway , which makes intuitive sense. Depending on what we do on turns 13 and 14 it can also be very fast completion, and leave us looking at an action list that is primarily research related. The all in first until completion route of Underway Ho! costs more of our personal AP, gets it done one turn faster, and leaves us with a list that is primarily research related.

Effectively a mostly intuitive trade of personal effort vs time it takes.
Four actions on turn 13 leaves it so that on turn 14 we can either let it complete on its own, or help at our leisure.

What I meant was that we finish the Underway on 14 if we spend 2 + 1 apprentice action or if we spend all 4 per turn.

Sure but even with 2 actions put in, we are more then doubling progress as 2 actions becomes 3 which is 6 progress. Only difference between 2 and 4 actions invested each turn is the amount of overflow at the end.
And the question of if 2 actions is enough to autocomplete the defenses so we don't have to worry about it.


Should the bar of Adamant not be a bigger thing, worth a Legendary Deed or higher, as right now Pure Gromril is the best material know to dwarf-kin and we have improve it?
Uh, its literally counted as a legendary item.

Plus Snorri hasn't told anyone. Nor does he need to right now. Got other stuff to do.
 
Should the bar of Adamant not be a bigger thing, worth a Legendary Deed or higher, as right now Pure Gromril is the best material know to dwarf-kin and we have improve it?
we don't know that others haven't made it. Entirely possible we aren't the first, Thugni almost certainly has already, and the brotherhood of Dron likely has it too. We've also got a 4th part to work through, and that's when we can make it in reasonable quantities without damaging everything around us, if anything would give a trait, it'd be that.
 
Sure but even with 2 actions put in, we are more then doubling progress as 2 actions becomes 3 which is 6 progress. Only difference between 2 and 4 actions invested each turn is the amount of overflow at the end.
Hey that's fine while we should focus on it I didn't say we have to put all our action into it. And while I would like to do that I doubt everyone would want that so put 2 action into it then the rest can go into searching odd places or more research.
 
question is do we want the extra progress and if it will do anything for the underway a bit more...like for example showing how defense in depth works for the other holds in the north and the south. Strengthening the dwarven position and our master's teachings. That means our bullshit gets even more bullshit by dwarven standards.
 
Hey that's fine while we should focus on it I didn't say we have to put all our action into it. And while I would like to do that I doubt everyone would want that so put 2 action into it then the rest can go into searching odd places or more research.

We're better off putting four actions on it for Turn 13, that way we have the freest choice on Turn 14 to respond to unexpected events, or to put three actions into research to get our bonus progress.

question is do we want the extra progress and if it will do anything for the underway a bit more...like for example showing how defense in depth works for the other holds in the north and the south. Strengthening the dwarven position and our master's teachings. That means our bullshit gets even more bullshit by dwarven standards.

If nothing else comes up, I'd vote to spend the full two turns on it.
 
question is do we want the extra progress and if it will do anything for the underway a bit more...like for example showing how defense in depth works for the other holds in the north and the south. Strengthening the dwarven position and our master's teachings. That means our bullshit gets even more bullshit by dwarven standards.
We already know that if we go all in on it until its done that it will autocomplete the defenses without the defenses project even showing up in our Request category.

Yes, but depending on how much effort you put into underway you may negate the existence of the action entirely. >_>
We're not sure how much less than all in until it is done we can get away with.
 
We're better off putting four actions on it for Turn 13, that way we have the freest choice on Turn 14 to respond to unexpected events, or to put three actions into research to get our bonus progress.
And again i'm totally done for that and it is my prefered course of action getting the underway done before the demons show in full force is vital for us.
 
So, it looks like we'll have 3 new research actions next turn. The Rune metal part 4. The new master rune, and this fire stone stuff. Definitely thinking the fire-stone would be quite useful for making weapons burn. Possibly good for making an armor that burns enemies that touch it? That'd be pretty cool. Don't know when the those flamethrower dawi come about, but definitely seems like it'd fit them.

Not sure if we'd want to do the Master Rune of ??? first or the Rune Metal part 4. I'm thinking the master rune, so that it's finalized which should help us industrialize the creation of Adamant.

Oh actually probably 4 research actions. I'd be surprised if we couldn't research what Adamant is like too.
 
We already know that if we go all in on it until its done that it will autocomplete the defenses without the defenses project even showing up in our Request category.

We're not sure how much less than all in until it is done we can get away with.

Even if going all in is more than enough to auto-complete the defences presumably Snorri will add useful upgrades to some other part of the project. Or potentially make the depth of the defences extra excessive. One of the two.
 
"Yes Niece!" the girl says, running off towards the storerooms.

Dolgi looks up from the pick he was working on, stares at Snerra's retreating form then back to Fjolla's back.

"Did she?" Dolgi begins to ask before getting cut off.

"Aye, doesn't matter, stilltechnicallycorrect, don'tthinkaboutit,

I don't really see why Fjolla should have such a reaction for being called niece by a dwarf a few decades younger. I mean that Jorri and Magna still having kids while being in their fourth century doesn't seem to surprise anyone, so it should be common to have such age difference between different branches of the family.

Just a small remark, the rest of the quest is great and what you're showing of Golden Age dwarfs is pretty darn good.
 
So, it looks like we'll have 3 new research actions next turn. The Rune metal part 4. The new master rune, and this fire stone stuff. Definitely thinking the fire-stone would be quite useful for making weapons burn. Possibly good for making an armor that burns enemies that touch it? That'd be pretty cool. Don't know when the those flamethrower dawi come about, but definitely seems like it'd fit them.

Not sure if we'd want to do the Master Rune of ??? first or the Rune Metal part 4. I'm thinking the master rune, so that it's finalized which should help us industrialize the creation of Adamant.

Oh actually probably 4 research actions. I'd be surprised if we couldn't research what Adamant is like too.
The Master Rune of ??? is Rune Metal Part 4 it looks like and Rune Metal is also related to Adamant so probably just two new projects.

The category swelleth mightily.
 
The Master Rune of ??? is Rune Metal Part 4 it looks like and Rune Metal is also related to Adamant so probably just two new projects.

The category swelleth mightily.
The Rune Metal Part 4 are listed in a different line and separated by another thing from the Master Rune of ???. Though maybe adamant will be held off until we finish part 4? I guess we'll end up seeing.
 
I'm loving the slow development of the runesmith mindset in our apprentices and the illustration of how they're inheriting the same tendency to become so immersed in their works that they don't even know time's passed. It gives a good sense of comparison to Snorri's already-established ten-year research binges, and gives rise to the thought that Thungni vanishing was actually just him locking himself in his workshop for a few thousand years and not noticing anything happening outside of it. That'd be a good End Times plotpoint right there.
 
You know... How sure are we that the mysterious rune has to be a Talisman rune? Maybe it's the shape or form of it that needs to change.
The purplish-black stone draws your eye, the sheen glinting in the light of your room. Logically it made no sense, obsidian was inert to magic, useful for some Warding Runes and Runes of Negation, but it didn't fit your image of removing m-

- you're an idiot.

If you can't draw it out, then push it out.
For example this bit: maybe the solution is to put the rune on a hammer? So that you can hammer the magic out of the gromril bar. Or maybe on the anvil. So that it drives away the magic as it is worked upon it.

As to what ingredient the rune might be missing... Maybe it's missing... well... Adamant. Obsidian is a magic-inert material right? But so's Adamant. :V So maybe you could use Adamant to make the rune more easily, or more properly. So there's a horrible bottleneck in the form of a catch-22 almost. Prevented from being a full catch-22 by the fact that you can make Adamant without already having Adamant.

Maybe the ingredient to make the rune is Obsidian -- but the object needs to be made of Adamant (or at least the purest Gromril) in order to hold the rune.

But! Anyway. Point being: maybe once you have Adamant, it's easier to make more.
You know why I like apprentices? Because their honestly freakin cute to watch. Passing on the knowledge is just nice.

But when you come at it with a "But it's meta-knowledge to be doing it and we should be thinking like a Golden Age dwarf!" that implies taking less of them. Which, you know. Obvious problem here.
Why on earth would I be against something as fun as apprentices? That'd be the exact opposite of the "Having fun in the Golden Age" thing! :V Well I mean, I might decide against immediately taking more apprentices in order to have full five actions for a turn or two, but that would be due to a desire for more actions, and a tradeoff made regretfully, not because apprentices aren't fun.
We could try it when we get the Rune of Adamant. A custom Adamant Armor for Otrek?
Yeah that could work really well. Build him a suit of Adamant and Pure Gromril plate, or possibly just Adamant depending on throughput of Adamant and then putting the Master Rune of Adamant, Rune of Impact and Rune of Might on it would be pretty dang good.

Even if the Master Rune of Adamant, Rune of Impact, Rune of Might don't make a Runic Combo, that's still having Otrek carrying around two items which vastly increase the strength and momentum of his blows. The casual red misting and yeeting of things becomes even more ridiculously easy for him, on top of him being incredibly hard to kill.
In the context of the Master Rune of Adamant specifically, the 8th edition has the limit that you can't put any other runes on the armor if you put the Master Rune of Adamant on the armor. =/

As I say here:
Some of the runes were changed from edition to edition, shuffled around, or replaced.

The Master Rune of Adamant, for example, only gave a +1 to Toughness in 6th edition. In 8th, it costs tons more points (I think it's the single most expensive individual rune at 100 points) and gives Toughness 10. Huh, also, it can't be taken with any other armor rune. I'd forgotten about that.

So, uh... It depends on whether Ancestor Era Runelords know more and better, and are able to combine the Rune of Adamant with other runes anyway. But if not, then... yeah. You're not combining it with any rune. =/
So at this point, we're left with only the Rune of Speed itself likely to affect the Strategic speed of the army, and as much as a banner of Rune of Speed X3 sounds awesome, I don't think it counts as a combo. But that does give me an idea with what you said earlier about momentum:

Banner with Rune of Speed, Rune of Might, Rune of Impact
Marching to war with the inexorable momentum of a meteor in flight.
This combo looks more like a "charge into battle and hit like a truck" rather than strategic marching in war. Replace Might and Impact with Fortitude and... um, dunno.

Hm. Honestly, right now, I want to see what just putting "Might" and "Fortitude" together would do.

Test out what happens when you combine Might and Fortitude together. It sounds like a cool and good combo of course, but I wanna see how it works out!
 
As to what ingredient the rune might be missing... Maybe it's missing... well... Adamant. Obsidian is a magic-inert material right? But so's Adamant. :V So maybe you could use Adamant to make the rune more easily, or more properly. So there's a horrible bottleneck in the form of a catch-22 almost. Prevented from being a full catch-22 by the fact that you can make Adamant without already having Adamant.
That would be a fun conclusion. Like making diamonds, it's a lot easier with a real diamond as a 'seed'. But there probably is another way too.
 
Have to say first, thanks for all the quick updates, you sure Snorri isn't you in disguise?

also I think after putting all our actions into the underway next turn to show the apprentices how it's done, we should let them go do their own things. After that 2 more underway for productivity bonus and getting started on def, then explore again with extra action on something simple or dump into the heart
 
The Rune Metal Part 4 are listed in a different line and separated by another thing from the Master Rune of ???. Though maybe adamant will be held off until we finish part 4? I guess we'll end up seeing.
The Master Rune of ??? is how we'd be making the Adamant, which we can only do explosively and unreliably until we improve the Rune, and sprung from the Rune Metal tree. I figure they're all in the same line of advancement even if we produce multiple things along the way.

Anyway.

So I'm not expecting to see Turn 13's turn planning post today, which is A Okay with me the last update was Lorge and very good and your pace is insane anyway Soul. But! That just leaves time to plan.

Plan 1 is basically
-All in on Underway on Turn 13, Snerra included. Leaves us with free reign on turn 14, but there's support to go all in on this turn too. That's also my personal preference.

Plan 2 I've seen from jwolfe-beta is
-2 Snorri actions on the Underway along with Snerra/Apprentices, then the other two actions on research or more Yorri places and it'd leave us needing to do 2 more actions on Turn 14 to finish up that turn. This is fine, though if we end up doing this I'd advocate for putting all in on turn 14 so that we can ensure the defenses are not going to show up as an option and we don't have to worry about them.

Plan 3 that has come up is
-Other combinations that let us work on the Banner request and research of like the Heart and stuff, but those were fuzzier.

In the context of the Master Rune of Adamant specifically, the 8th edition has the limit that you can't put any other runes on the armor if you put the Master Rune of Adamant on the armor. =/

As I say here:
Given soul's point about only drawing on inspiration from Adamant, I'm going to hold out hope that the Master Rune of Adamant which has changed over editions, can be used in combos.

Personally it doesn't make a lot of sense for it to work like it does in 8th edition based on the lore, since no other Rune works like that to my knowledge. And even if it does work like that, we can just use the Master Rune of Gromril inscribed into Adamant if needed. Not that big of a deal.


Have to say first, thanks for all the quick updates, you sure Snorri isn't you in disguise?

also I think after putting all our actions into the underway next turn to show the apprentices how it's done, we should let them go do their own things. After that 2 more underway for productivity bonus and getting started on def, then explore again with extra action on something simple or dump into the heart
Getting started on the defenses as an actual project is not something that's really all that good when we can just do it automatically if we put requisite effort into the underway project that comes before it.

We could use that project space to focus on other stuff. Like research, or yorri exploration.
 
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I would expect that earlier actions have more effect on the underway then latter ones. Like Dolgi made 180 pickaxes those pickaxes don't disappear so they should still be speeding up later progress.
 
So now Snorri owns a firestone quarry, with is probably a Tier 2 item, so i think its safe to say that Snorri is the richest dwarf in The Far North
 
Speaking off are Firestone's a real thing or a item madeup for the quest? I cant tell.

That said those things would probably help empower the Rune of Burning a little bit.
 
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