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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Fayhem said:
Re: being able to use it on the Valayans, I see people saying the chain will make armor better. Is there QM confirmation on that or something? Because right now gromril chain is less protective than normal gromril armor, and wildly more difficult and slow to make. At least per the actual research description in the action, Rune Metal 2b is just reducing the difficulty to a point where Runesmiths who aren't decked out in crazy T5 armor and wielding a synergistic T4 hammer would also be able to do it. It doesn't increase the protectiveness to where it's actually better than normal gromril armor, and it doesn't say it will actually make it faster to produce than normal gromril armor, just easy enough to make that runesmiths who aren't using our very specific items could theoretically do it.

It sounds like a pure prestige flex to impress other Runesmiths/Runelords in other words. I would expect it to increase our standing there as such, but these other benefits don't seem to be especially derived from the text unless I really missed something. If we got more standing unlocks for our Runelord contacts it could be worth it, but idk how to estimate the likelihood of that.

Hold founding says it goes away at the end of turn 40, not the start.
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Gromril Chain is going to go under the actual Gromril Plate. Barak Azamar, suit of "oh dear god STOP NOT DYING" was using Steel Chain under the Plate as that's how platemail works. (Plating does not bend well.) Now it's using Gromril Chain.

Basically it's a small upgrade to normal armor. Like we're going to be coughing up en masse.

If it was just a chain shirt? You're utterly right!

But this is a chain shirt AND a suit of plate. And of that 2-part segment we upgrade one of them.
 
Fayhem said:
Re: being able to use it on the Valayans, I see people saying the chain will make armor better. Is there QM confirmation on that or something? Because right now gromril chain is less protective than normal gromril armor, and wildly more difficult and slow to make. At least per the actual research description in the action, Rune Metal 2b is just reducing the difficulty to a point where Runesmiths who aren't decked out in crazy T5 armor and wielding a synergistic T4 hammer would also be able to do it. It doesn't increase the protectiveness to where it's actually better than normal gromril armor, and it doesn't say it will actually make it faster to produce than normal gromril armor, just easy enough to make that runesmiths who aren't using our very specific items could theoretically do it.

It sounds like a pure prestige flex to impress other Runesmiths/Runelords in other words. I would expect it to increase our standing there as such, but these other benefits don't seem to be especially derived from the text unless I really missed something. If we got more standing unlocks for our Runelord contacts it could be worth it, but idk how to estimate the likelihood of that.
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It pretty much says it will in the update we did 1B in as gromril chain is better than the steel chain currently used in gromril armor. And the whole point of 2B is to make it mass producible by rune smiths.
Fayhem said:
Hold founding says it goes away at the end of turn 40, not the start.
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QM addressed it costing more actions than it should have while back and handed out snazz points for someone pointing it out so I'm taking their word on it for now personally.
 
ArchAIngel said:
If it was just a chain shirt? You're utterly right!

But this is a chain shirt AND a suit of plate. And of that 2-part segment we upgrade one of them.
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Makes more sense as something that does something other than style on other runesmiths, then. But it still seems like a relatively marginal upgrade to spend 7 actions on tbh.
Sir LagsAlot said:
QM addressed it costing more actions than it should have while back and handed out snazz points for someone pointing it out so I'm taking their word on it for now personally.
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Huh, okay. Still says "until end of turn 40" as of the last turn so I was going off of that.
 
Makes me wonder how the fabrics woven by the Weaving Guilds are capable of protecting dawi in a pinch. Some sort of Guild Secret-level treatment process?
 
Fayhem said:
Makes more sense as something that does something other than style on other runesmiths, then. But it still seems like a relatively marginal upgrade to spend 7 actions on tbh.
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Four and I wouldn't exactly call patching up one of the biggest weaknesses of plate small.
Fayhem said:
Huh, okay. Still says "until end of turn 40" as of the last turn so I was going off of that.
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Don't worry I'm equally as confused as you are still so I'll probably end up asking about it again when we come around to the turn it's relevant just to clarify.
 
Fayhem said:
Makes more sense as something that does something other than style on other runesmiths, then. But it still seems like a relatively marginal upgrade to spend 7 actions on tbh.
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Yeah, that's understandable. To us players its, honestly a pretty simple upgrade since we don't have the same cultural context. But the cultural importance to the dwarves is huge, especially when all of these elders walking around with chain when previously that was just not a thing that happened. There was an argument made once by @Thor's Twin I think about it being inspiring to other dwarves, showing them that it is possible to do this if you have the right know how and I've found it quite compelling.

I like working on the tree as a whole (so part 2b and parts beyond) personally because it increases the quality of all of our craft going forward, raises the floor of quality in Kraka Drakk, is a general upgrade to defensiveness for a lot of dwarves (Gromril's properties are stupid tbh how good they are), and is a pretty inspiring flex.
 
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BungieONI said:
Yeah, that's understandable. To us players its, honestly a pretty simple upgrade since we don't have the same cultural context. But the cultural importance to the dwarves is huge, especially when all of these elders walking around with chain when previously that was just not a thing that happened. There was an argument made once by @Thor's Twin I think about it being inspiring to other dwarves, showing them that it is possible to do this if you have the right know how and I've found it quite compelling.

I like working on the tree as a whole (so part 2b and parts beyond) personally because it increases the quality of all of our craft going forward, raises the floor of quality in Kraka Drakk, is a general upgrade to defensiveness for a lot of dwarves (Gromril's properties are stupid tbh how good they are), and is a pretty inspiring flex.
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Yep all that and also the good chance it will cross progress the other rune metal and related works as a bonus which is always nice. It sets rune metal part 5 up nicely to easily finish after the alchemy rush.
 
Brana have, for all intents and purposes, become co-equal citizenry of the Karaz Ankor living under the rule of their Ancestor God who made pact with the Ancestor Gods of the Dawi. Dwarven distrust of the untested and improper is what leads to general standoffish and unpleasant behavior towards other races, but this becomes xenophobia when the Elgi (who for some reason do not venerate Caledor Dragontamer as the Ancestor God of true and righteous elgi) betray the Dawi for inexplicable reasons.

The Brana are beings who should enjoy all the rights available to citizens visiting from another hold, or are beholden to a different hold's King. Our allowance of them into our retinue is allowing them to join Dawi society. That's a big step, but one that might not actually be very difficult.

I'd like to point out that very thankfully, the Ancestors themselves communicated with the Brana Ancestor God and made pact with him. They have a culture that is synergistic to dawi culture, in that it isn't overly concerned with politik, doublespeak, time-wasting, and generally being pointy eared fools.

I've no idea how many Brana will choose to integrate with Dawi society, but our retinue (as designed) is incredibly well positioned to accept Brana without shaking.

There are increasing amounts of divergence in the North compared to the traditional southern holds. I do think there will be political conflict in the future as Northern culture continues to deviate by degrees from the norm.

Elgi harbors and barks? Brana aeries and retainers? Animate limbs? Gromril Chain?! Retinues that wander around and aide for no cost or contract?!? And who is this Al Chemy I'm hearing of?!!? That's not a proper Khazalid name!!!! What is going on up there??!?!
 
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Fayhem said:
It sounds like a pure prestige flex to impress other Runesmiths/Runelords in other words. I would expect it to increase our standing there as such, but these other benefits don't seem to be especially derived from the text unless I really missed something. If we got more standing unlocks for our Runelord contacts it could be worth it, but idk how to estimate the likelihood of that.
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The benefits for Snorri would presumably be that the new method would be much faster compared to brute forcing everything and having to hammer out the chain on his own knee because he has no anvil that could withstand the heat.
 
BungieONI said:
To us players its, honestly a pretty simple upgrade since we don't have the same cultural context. But the cultural importance to the dwarves is huge
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Is it? I mean, at least the impression I got is that the "gromril chain" thing is more of That One Weird Challenge that runesmiths are fixated on more than something that really takes up much space in the dwarven consciousness generally. I'd expect clapping (approving grumbling?) due to the intellectual understanding of this being a really hard thing that got done, and appreciation for the modest but appreciable improvement to gromril armor for the probably 0.5% of dwarven society that will ever get gromril armor made for them by a runesmith. Which is actually probably too high of a percentage to be guessing, since the people equipped by that one crazy Runelord in Kraka Drakk (it us) is not really representative of how many people most runesmiths/runelords ever craft armor for.

But if it's not something that other people think about that much, I think it's unrealistic to expect it to really mean all that much to them. It seems more like the equivalent of, idk, somebody winning the Fields Medal IRL for solving something that could be used to improve cryptography. Or maybe imagine it was a physics problem that couldn't be solved by Einstein, Hawking, or [insert other physicist that normal people might have heard of, if there is one] to scale up slightly closer to "this is something previously done by an Ancestor", and then probably multiply it a few more times. It's a big deal to other mathematicians/physicists/etc because they were already familiar with why that was such a hard problem to solve and likely tried themselves at some point, and it matters to people who are familiar with how important cryptography (or whatever) can be, but to the person on the street that's more of a "oh, cool, I guess that's really impressive then, good for them" and possibly moderate approval for it feeding back into society to a limited extent.
 
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Fayhem said:
Is it? I mean, at least the impression I got is that the "gromril chain" thing is more of That One Weird Challenge that runesmiths are fixated on more than something that really takes up much space in the dwarven consciousness generally. I'd expect clapping (approving grumbling?) due to the intellectual understanding of this being a really hard thing that got done, and appreciation for the modest but appreciable improvement to gromril armor for the probably 0.5% of dwarven society that will ever get gromril armor made for them by a runesmith. Which is actually probably too high of a percentage to be guessing, since the people equipped by that one crazy Runelord in Kraka Drakk (it us) is not really representative of how many people most runesmiths/runelords ever craft armor for.

But if it's not something that other people think about that much, I think it's unrealistic to expect it to really mean all that much to them. It seems more like the equivalent of, idk, somebody winning the Fields Medal IRL for solving something that could be used to improve cryptography. It's a big deal to other mathematicians because they were already familiar with why that was such a hard problem to solve and likely tried themselves at some point, and it matters to people who are familiar with how important cryptography can be, but to the person on the street that's more of a "oh, cool" and possibly moderate approval for it feeding back into society to a limited extent.
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Unless we can figure out a method for it to be made in a practical manner without needing Runesmiths to make it--at that point, it means gromril chainmail becomes a real possibility (on top of making Ironbreakers even tougher to wound, since their platemail's weak points would still be covered by gromril chainmail)
 
[X] Brana: Accept
[X] Ceremony: Ostentatious.

I want to see what qualifies as Ostentatious to the Dwarfs of a major central Karak.
 
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