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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Gromril chain is a big deal because craftsmanship is a huge defining part of dwarf culture. Of the seven dwarf gods four are based around craftsmanship in some form. In canon the only known person to have ever made Gromril chain is Grungi himself, the head of the pantheon, though here Smednir is also likely capable of it. We have every reason to think that Snorri managing it will make history and make him famous across Karaz Ankor for discovering the secret to something thought only possible by the Ancestors. It'll very likely give him rep with people that would otherwise never hear of him despite his prominence in the north.
 
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Unless we can figure out a method for it to be made in a practical manner without needing Runesmiths to make it--at that point, it means gromril chainmail becomes a real possibility (on top of making Ironbreakers even tougher to wound, since their platemail's weak points would still be covered by gromril chainmail)
Well, one part of the problem is that we need some way to shield the dwarf making the rings to be protected from heat and able to work in an environment without air, right? Well, I checked the Rune list, and we do know the Rune of the Furnace, which I've found this description for:

"A character bearing an item inscribed with this rune is immune to fire damage of all types. Neither natural fires nor fire-based attacks such as fiery blast spells can affect someone protect by a Rune of the Furnace."

So what needs to be done is have suits of armour made with this Rune on them (while a Talismanic Rune, it isn't a Master Rune, and can thus be put on anything) with a sealed hose that can pump air to them while they work, sort of like those old diving suits but made for a dwarf's proportions.
 
Makes more sense as something that does something other than style on other runesmiths, then. But it still seems like a relatively marginal upgrade to spend 7 actions on tbh.
Is it? I mean, at least the impression I got is that the "gromril chain" thing is more of That One Weird Challenge that runesmiths are fixated on more than something that really takes up much space in the dwarven consciousness generally. I'd expect clapping (approving grumbling?) due to the intellectual understanding of this being a really hard thing that got done, and appreciation for the modest but appreciable improvement to gromril armor for the probably 0.5% of dwarven society that will ever get gromril armor made for them by a runesmith. Which is actually probably too high of a percentage to be guessing, since the people equipped by that one crazy Runelord in Kraka Drakk (it us) is not really representative of how many people most runesmiths/runelords ever craft armor for.

But if it's not something that other people think about that much, I think it's unrealistic to expect it to really mean all that much to them. It seems more like the equivalent of, idk, somebody winning the Fields Medal IRL for solving something that could be used to improve cryptography. It's a big deal to other mathematicians because they were already familiar with why that was such a hard problem to solve and likely tried themselves at some point, and it matters to people who are familiar with how important cryptography can be, but to the person on the street that's more of a "oh, cool" and possibly moderate approval for it feeding back into society to a limited extent.
Hmmm... let's see if I can properly describe my argument for why Gromril Chain is the actual most important research option for us to pursue for long term growth and benefit for the Dwarven society as a whole.

The first step is to ditch the argument regarding the marginal improvements that Gromril chain would produce for armors. Because you are right, in my opinion (and it seems in Snorri's opinion) that gromril chain as a whole would only be a marginal improvement to the armor of a marginal amount of dwarves. As such, if we were pursuing the gromril chain for those marginal improvements, it probably wouldn't be worth the opportunity cost of going for something that has more impact (such as the glories hidden behind alchemy). But that's not why I think it is important.

There was another argument that it would let us meet the last Ancestor God we had to meet, and so that is why it should be pursued. Those arguing that were correct, in that it allowed us to complete the set of Ancestor Gods met (kind of), but we still have so much to do for the research tree that further effort can not be supported by this argument. So let's ditch the argument.

There is another argument that it will bring substantial prestige for Snorri to wring out some Gromril Chain. This is true, and it has increased our standing with peers in the Brotherhood of Dorn. But Snorri has very rarely been motivated to conduct an arduous journey simply for the sake of prestige, and so I think this argument is weak and flimsy. A nice benefit, for sure, but not a reason to pursue such research.

No, the reason I love gromril chain is not for any of those arguments, but for the very real message that Snorri sends when making Gromril Chain. That the feats of the Ancestor Gods' are not ceilings that can never be reached, but in fact challenges to overcome. And that message is more important than all the gold in Thungni's vault. Here is why.

Gromril chain is known to all dwarves to have only been created by Grungni, the patriarch of the Dwarven pantheon. He is, in the Dwarven mind, the only one with the skill and mettle to take gromril and turn it into chain. And that is an act of such divine might that none can replicate it. So, they tell themselves, why even attempt that feat? It exists in the realm of the divine, and we are mortals. That is the case with many of the wonders created by the Dwarven Pantheon, of which Gromril Chain is only a lesser feat. The Rune of Eternity, the craftsmanship of Smedier, the runes of Thungni, the workings of Vayla, the feats of Grimnir, and the wonders of Morgrim, and the prowess of Gazul. All of these, the Dwarves think, are ceilings that they can not reach, let alone breach.

But what if they were wrong?

By crafting gromril chain with the hands of a mortal, it demonstrates that either the craftsman are no longer mortal, having ascended to divinity through the divine act of crafting gromril chain, or that crafting gromril chain is not, in fact, an act of divinity. And Snorri will be the first to say that he is not divine. So dwarves who learn of the feat are left with a quandary, either Snorri is a mortal capable of accomplishing feats once the sole purview of the divine, or the crafting of gromril chain is not a divine act. Either result crumbles the ceilings of skill that most Dwarves hold themselves to. For if Snorri can do it, then why can't others? Or, what other feats are not in the sole purview of the Divine?

In this way, we have the potential to reconceptualize the feats of the Ancestor Gods not as insurmountable ceilings, but rather as challenges to overcome to become better. And such a mindset does wonders for the lowest janitor of Karaz-a-Karak to Alric Thungnison himself. This message is also important coming from Snorri because of his background. He is not one step removed from Divinity, he is the farthest possible removed and still be a Runesmith. He did not achieve the heights he has reached through gold of ancient clans and teachers taught by the Divine themselves, he reached this level of skill with 20 years of apprenticeship and an unusual skill in herding goats. Snorri started with nothing but skill, talent, and the most important ingredient of all for successful dwarves. Will.

It his will to do what is useful for his hold, his clan, and his profession that has let him reached so far. It is the will of one who can shape adamant with his hammer and the will to carve runes of power into gromril. The will to enter a furnace for days and nights hammering a bar of gromril to form chain. And so, with enough will, can other dwarves take for themselves the challenges of the ancestors and overcome the limitations they currently have.

That, is why I am passionate about Gromril Chain. Not for the benefit to armor, not for the prestige or the renown. Not even for the increased skill in working in finer denominations of gromril. But for the message it sends to everyone who knows that gromril chain is only made by the divine and to break the ceilings that Dwarven veneration of the Ancestor Gods' create and form ladders from the rubble.
 
Well, one part of the problem is that we need some way to shield the dwarf making the rings to be protected from heat and able to work in an environment without air, right? Well, I checked the Rune list, and we do know the Rune of the Furnace, which I've found this description for:

"A character bearing an item inscribed with this rune is immune to fire damage of all types. Neither natural fires nor fire-based attacks such as fiery blast spells can affect someone protect by a Rune of the Furnace."

So what needs to be done is have suits of armour made with this Rune on them (while a Talismanic Rune, it isn't a Master Rune, and can thus be put on anything) with a sealed hose that can pump air to them while they work, sort of like those old diving suits but made for a dwarf's proportions.

I think you're looking at it backwards.

Or rather, we should be looking at the issue backwards.

If the problem is that forging Gromril chainmail requires such extreme work enviroments, we don't scale the protections to suit those conditions...

We change the Conditions.


We need to look into a Rune for forging that decreases a worked materials heat resistence.
 
The plan we're working under does one mat science action and has a free action we haven't slotted anything in for both of these are for turn 36.


Actions​
Turn 36 – Princely Wedding Due​
Turn 37 – Grave Wardens Accept​
Turn 38​
Turn 39​
Turn 40 – Armoured Maidens Due​
Turn 41​
Turn 42 – Grave Wardens Due​
AP 1​
Dronril, Dronwut​
Understand Valaya's Runes​
The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​
Armoured Maidens​
Armoured Maidens​
Grave Wardens​
Grave Wardens​
AP 2​
A Princely Wedding Pt. 2​
Understand Valaya's Runes​
The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​
Armoured Maidens​
Armoured Maidens​
Grave Wardens​
Grave Wardens​
AP 3​
A Princely Wedding Pt. 2​
Understand Valaya's Runes​
The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​
Armoured Maidens​
Armoured Maidens​
Grave Wardens​
Grave Wardens​
AP 4​
Understand Valaya's Runes​
The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​
Armoured Maidens​
Armoured Maidens​
Grave Wardens​
AP 5​
Hold Founding​
Hold Founding​
Hold Founding​
Hold Founding​
Hold Founding​
Grave Wardens​

Would it be possible to convince you to do Rune Metal Pt. 2B on turn 37 instead of 38 with the hope that completing this might trigger updates to the Standings for the Brotherhood of Dron that might allow for those random chances to learn new runes that might come at Standing level 7? Random chance of a hope, I know, but it might get us additional stuff after studying Valaya's Runes.

EDIT: To be clear, I am so hyped we are doing both of them to completition and also possibly poking our Master Rune next turn.
 
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There was also the bit where the heat required to melt gromril is just not sustainable to life due to removing the air with which a normal person breathes. Barak Azmar makes it so we no longer need to do that anymore, which is another "minor" issue conveniently solved due to the existence of our equips.

Really, this is in part what I assume was what made that other runelord (was it Thunderlung?) specifically training himself and his apprentice in how to not need to breathe when doing their workout (also we got rune progress from that, but that is minor in comparison).
 
Unless we can figure out a method for it to be made in a practical manner without needing Runesmiths to make it--at that point, it means gromril chainmail becomes a real possibility (on top of making Ironbreakers even tougher to wound, since their platemail's weak points would still be covered by gromril chainmail)
I mean, a) that's not within the purview of the current action - it specifically says we're trying to make it so other Runesmiths can do it, and I REALLY don't want to do this project a third time as some 2c version that arguably would be stepping on the toes of regular smiths anyway, which is something dwarves take real dang seriously. And b) gromril chainmail is still not as good as normal gromril armor; it would mean that dwarves who are getting gromril armor from regular smiths rather than runesmiths could potentially benefit from the better joint coverage, but that's still it AFAICT.
This, though, this is more interesting to me. Hmm. That's staking a lot of your hopes on how other dwarves will interpret this occurrence when idk how much influence we'll really have over that. But I'll agree that if it did pan out just like that then it could be worth it.
 
If we complete Understanding MPurification does anyone think it could be used with demon slaying for Snorri's second weapon?
 
This, though, this is more interesting to me. Hmm. That's staking a lot of your hopes on how other dwarves will interpret this occurrence when idk how much influence we'll really have over that. But I'll agree that if it did pan out just like that then it could be worth it.
It has quite a lot going for it in my opinion. The idea leverages the cultural knowledge of the Dwarves regarding the feats of the Ancestor Gods as well as the Dwarven reluctance to equate anything a mortal can do to the skill of their Ancestor Gods. These two facets of Dwarven Culture will make the feat of making gromril chain, especially if we can show that other runesmiths or even regular smiths could make it, something that requires a shift in how they think of the feats of their Ancestor Gods. Because if Snorri is not at the level of skill as Grungni (which he isn't) then the logical conclusion is that the Dwarven God's meant that the feat of Gromril Chain was feasible for mortal hands and mortal skills. Once you come to that conclusion, then the next natural step is to ask what other feats of the Ancestor Gods did they mean to be achievable by mortals.

The idea heavily leans onto known aspects of Dwarven Culture to pivot that culture (using the very weight of that culture) into a healthier mindset regarding the Dwarven Ancestor God feats. It's like Aikido, but for Dwarven Culture.
 
I mean, a) that's not within the purview of the current action - it specifically says we're trying to make it so other Runesmiths can do it, and I REALLY don't want to do this project a third time as some 2c version that arguably would be stepping on the toes of regular smiths anyway, which is something dwarves take real dang seriously. And b) gromril chainmail is still not as good as normal gromril armor; it would mean that dwarves who are getting gromril armor from regular smiths rather than runesmiths could potentially benefit from the better joint coverage, but that's still it AFAICT.

This, though, this is more interesting to me. Hmm. That's staking a lot of your hopes on how other dwarves will interpret this occurrence when idk how much influence we'll really have over that. But I'll agree that if it did pan out just like that then it could be worth it.
The Chain was never meant to replace Gromril Plate though? Chainmail is for supplementing Plate Armor by protecting exposed joints and such or for those who don't wear Plate Armor to begin with and prefer lighter armor like Rangers.
 
Is it? I mean, at least the impression I got is that the "gromril chain" thing is more of That One Weird Challenge that runesmiths are fixated on more than something that really takes up much space in the dwarven consciousness generally. I'd expect clapping (approving grumbling?) due to the intellectual understanding of this being a really hard thing that got done, and appreciation for the modest but appreciable improvement to gromril armor for the probably 0.5% of dwarven society that will ever get gromril armor made for them by a runesmith. Which is actually probably too high of a percentage to be guessing, since the people equipped by that one crazy Runelord in Kraka Drakk (it us) is not really representative of how many people most runesmiths/runelords ever craft armor for.

But if it's not something that other people think about that much, I think it's unrealistic to expect it to really mean all that much to them. It seems more like the equivalent of, idk, somebody winning the Fields Medal IRL for solving something that could be used to improve cryptography. Or maybe imagine it was a physics problem that couldn't be solved by Einstein, Hawking, or [insert other physicist that normal people might have heard of, if there is one] to scale up slightly closer to "this is something previously done by an Ancestor", and then probably multiply it a few more times. It's a big deal to other mathematicians/physicists/etc because they were already familiar with why that was such a hard problem to solve and likely tried themselves at some point, and it matters to people who are familiar with how important cryptography (or whatever) can be, but to the person on the street that's more of a "oh, cool, I guess that's really impressive then, good for them" and possibly moderate approval for it feeding back into society to a limited extent.
Yes. Thor's Twin has made some good points I agree with, but...

The impression that it is One Weird Challenge that runesmiths are fixated on is incorrect. Grungni is the chief ancestor god, the greatest craftsman the dwarves have ever known, and it is known to every dwarf as part of his legend (or near as everyone) that Grungni is the only dwarf in recorded history able to do it. Grungni is a patron of many parts of dwarf society, one of them being metalworking. And metal working is a Big Deal to the dwarves since they pride themselves as incredibly skilled craftspeople of things pulled from beneath the earth. Most of their words for good or reliable have to do with stone or metal, they hold them in such high regard.

The people interested in chain are: runesmiths, metalsmiths, weaponsmiths, armorsmiths, smelters, engineers. Anyone who knows and works with Gromril(I've probably missed a few). Its marked as a incredible mark of skill and understanding and so far, over millennia no one has been up to the task. Primary users though are runesmiths and metalsmiths, and metalsmith clans make up a large proportion of dwarf society.

And comparing the Ancestor Gods to Einstein or Hawking kind of, fails to encapsulate how important they are. This is more like people who built the society you live in from the ground up and are still actively present. We don't really *have* equivalents to that except religious figures and even then it isn't quite right.

I mean, a) that's not within the purview of the current action - it specifically says we're trying to make it so other Runesmiths can do it, and I REALLY don't want to do this project a third time as some 2c version that arguably would be stepping on the toes of regular smiths anyway, which is something dwarves take real dang seriously. And b) gromril chainmail is still not as good as normal gromril armor; it would mean that dwarves who are getting gromril armor from regular smiths rather than runesmiths could potentially benefit from the better joint coverage, but that's still it AFAICT.

This, though, this is more interesting to me. Hmm. That's staking a lot of your hopes on how other dwarves will interpret this occurrence when idk how much influence we'll really have over that. But I'll agree that if it did pan out just like that then it could be worth it.
I don't understand what led you to a). In the update where we make the chain shirt Snorri outright says that he'd figure out a way for them to do it and basically gift it to them in the same context as the thoughts about runesmiths. Additionally a) would require Snorri to approach it like... He's not going to do that kind of screw up.

As for b), the space of discussion for most of us discussing chain in is not gromril plate vs gromril chain, because that's just not how dwarves do their armor making, but steel chain vs gromril chain. Gromril chain not stacking up to gromril plate is a readily accepted fact, because it's not supposed to.l
 
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Read further the plan was updated to this.

Actions​
Turn 36 – Princely Wedding Due​
Turn 37 – Grave Wardens Accept​
Turn 38​
Turn 39​
Turn 40 – Armoured Maidens Due​
Turn 41​
Turn 42 – Grave Wardens Due​
AP 1​
Dronril, Dronwut​
The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​
Understand Valaya's Runes​
Armoured Maidens​
Armoured Maidens​
Grave Wardens​
Grave Wardens​
AP 2​
A Princely Wedding Pt. 2​
The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​
Understand Valaya's Runes​
Armoured Maidens​
Armoured Maidens​
Grave Wardens​
Grave Wardens​
AP 3​
A Princely Wedding Pt. 2​
The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​
Understand Valaya's Runes​
Armoured Maidens​
Armoured Maidens​
Grave Wardens​
Grave Wardens​
AP 4​
Master Rune of Purification (provisional)​
The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​
Understand Valaya's Runes​
Armoured Maidens​
Grave Wardens​
AP 5​
Hold Founding​
Hold Founding​
Hold Founding​
Hold Founding​
Armoured MaidensGrave Wardens

Although if the whole Hold Founding thing gets cleared up as ending on turn 40 it'd be this.

Actions​
Turn 36 – Princely Wedding Due​
Turn 37 – Grave Wardens Accept​
Turn 38​
Turn 39​
Turn 40 – Armoured Maidens Due​
Turn 41​
Turn 42 – Grave Wardens Due​
AP 1​
Dronril, Dronwut​
The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​
Understand Valaya's Runes​
Armoured Maidens​
Armoured Maidens​
Grave Wardens​
Grave Wardens​
AP 2​
A Princely Wedding Pt. 2​
The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​
Understand Valaya's Runes​
Armoured Maidens​
Armoured Maidens​
Grave Wardens​
Grave Wardens​
AP 3​
A Princely Wedding Pt. 2​
The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​
Understand Valaya's Runes​
Armoured Maidens​
Armoured Maidens​
Grave Wardens​
Grave Wardens​
AP 4​
Master Rune of Purification (provisional)​
The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​
Understand Valaya's Runes​
Armoured Maidens​
Armoured Maidens​
Grave Wardens​
AP 5​
Hold Founding​
Hold Founding​
Hold Founding​
Hold Founding​
Hold FoundingGrave Wardens

Not quite as efficient with regards to Armoured Maidens but there's nothing we can really do about that.
 
I don't understand what led you to a). In the update where we make the chain shirt Snorri outright says that he'd figure out a way for them to do it and basically gift it to them in the same context as the thoughts about runesmiths.
I was too lazy to go back and look at the update, so I was just going off the action description of
(*Updated*)[ ] The Rune Metal Pt. 2b: [Cost: (14 -5) =9 actions] Journeyman of the Odd and Soul of the Earth will proc. You can and now have done it, made Gromril chain and chainmaille. It required extremely unique circumstances and felt more a fluke than true success to you. No, you will not be satisfied unless you can create something any hypothetical Runesmith could do. Beyond that? Who knows?
Which reads like the focus of the current action is just Runesmiths, and expanding the project to cover regular smiths would be a 2c.
Which some would believe that as a Runesmith you would be accustomed to, and admittedly you could see why, but this felt too far gone. Your pride and your desires demand you continue, that you find a more universal solution. Something any Runesmith could do at the very least, mayhaps even the Metalsmiths Guild could do with some properly Runed equipment.

Though that latter part will most certainly be incredibly difficult, and you wouldn't feel comfortable sharing that capability without at least doing the former.
So I went back and tracked down the update to check now and, uh, it looks like I read it right the first time? That seems very clear that the current action is just for Runesmiths, and the idea of expanding that to regular smiths would be another project after that.
As for b), the space of discussion for most of us discussing chain in is not gromril plate vs gromril chain, because that's just not how dwarves do their armor making, but steel chain vs gromril chain. Gromril chain not stacking up to gromril plate is a readily accepted fact, because it's not supposed to.
It is low-key possible that I literally forgot it's possible for dwarves to actually prefer non-plate armor.

Thor's Twin's arguments have more-or-less won me over at this point anyway. I don't think I'm going to be at the same level of enthusiasm still, but I can see why it makes sense to want to prioritize it now.
Because a part of you feels that making the chain itself wasn't Grungni's challenge, if he even challenged you in the first place, but rather finding a way to make available to more than a very select few Dawi.

Or maybe Grungni hadn't actually challenged you, and this was another case of you having incredibly high standards beyond what most Dawi expected, but what else was new? Really, if everyone did things as if the Ancestors had personally challenged them then maybe the Karaz Ankor would be farther along than it was now! Had they thought of that?
As long as I was going back over the update, it does also look like their argument is quite in line with what Snorri himself is thinking, which I'll admit slipped by me before because I wasn't focusing on it at the time.
 
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