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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Thinking some more about synergies, I wonder if learning Eltharin would potentially help develop Journeyman of the Odd. We've previously been told that runes can do anything a dwarf can think of them doing. Learning a new language might extend the range of things Snorri can think of, and help him push back the boundaries of runecraft. It might not have the same benefit for other runelords, but as Yorri's student he's been taught to look for those edge cases and oddities.

So many of Snorri's research projects could be aided by this I think it's worth taking the risk and front loading itx

Wonder if we could set up some sort of eyewear, magnifying glass, or similar that makes the Winds viewable. Would go a long way to making research easier, especially if we're going to continue down the path or understanding the Winds.

One for Fjolla, maybe, glasses made of cut crystals carved with runes?
 
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If we actually finish any rune metal research, would that help getting standings with the Brotherhood?

I think I'd like to get more Brotherhood favor in case we do truly end up having relationship with the Elves, for research!
 
Thinking some more about synergies, I wonder if learning Eltharin would potentially help develop Journeyman of the Odd. We've previously been told that runes can do anything a dwarf can think of them doing. Learning a new language might extend the range of things Snorri can think of, and help him push back the boundaries of runecraft. It might not have the same benefit for other runelords, but as Yorri's student he's been taught to look for those edge cases and oddities.

So many of Snorri's research projects could be aided by this I think it's worth taking the risk and front loading itx
So setting aside why we would Runes of Betrayal
B. Dwarfs will never think to make a Rune like that/its abhorrent to them. Like, say, a rune that helps you commit betrayal? Theoretically possible, because everything has a rune, but this being a construct of Dwarfen make, it's effectively impossible to achieve because Dwarfs don't do that, and that specific definition is outweighed by other "definitions" that is more dwarf appropriate, like the Grudge Rune for instance.
This question can only really be answered by knowing what weighs the different definitions.
 
Wonder if we could set up some sort of eyewear, magnifying glass, or similar that makes the Winds viewable. Would go a long way to making research easier, especially if we're going to continue down the path or understanding the Winds.
I think it will more likely look like a projector. A device that when applied to the object, reflects patterns and colours onto something.
Im might even look like the smelter mk2: pushing the winds out of an object, onto a sheet of magically sensitive material... Which could then be Interpreted. First with help from someone who can see the winds and then from the book we write.
 
Ah, mechanics post info


Since we aren't doing this as a request or a commission this seems like a very long shot to get favour, and its kinda unrelated to making 4 rune items (their goal).
If we wanted to store favour to try and grind through the favour thresholds to boost standing that'd be a reasonable reason to not want to spend it.
I'm fully expecting unlocking chain to unlock a brotherhood request for info on it. Also at standing 6 I think we are well past the point where grinding favour is a reasonable way to raise our standing, especially with the brotherhood where earning favour is going to be difficult.
 
So setting aside why we would Runes of Betrayal

This question can only really be answered by knowing what weighs the different definitions.

Because it's not about making Runes of Betrayal, it's about making runes of things like Wingsight, or other things that runic Khazalid theoretically encompasses but most dwarves wouodn't consider focusing a runes effects to achieve.
 
I think it will more likely look like a projector. A device that when applied to the object, reflects patterns and colours onto something.
Im might even look like the smelter mk2: pushing the winds out of an object, onto a sheet of magically sensitive material... Which could then be Interpreted. First with help from someone who can see the winds and then from the book we write.

I wonder if this is possibly one for Dolgi as well.

The reason is that Windsight is much more than images, as we saw from the descriptions of the various materials last update, there's a whole emotional context to their various flavours. Now, that's hard to convey. I know that the Rune of Brotherhood has been nerfed, but I wonder if Dolgi could somehow be granted some ability to perceive the Winds if he worked alongside one of the Brana he is close to while wearing some combo of Brotherhood with something derived from Translation after more Mind of Things research.

Now, eventually, if Snorri goes far enough down the Mind of Things chain, and we go down the Six Million Ingot dwarf route, I could see something like a Third Eye prosthesis/jewellery being a remote possibility, possibly using something like a Fimir Dirarch's eye as a reagent, that grants a dwarf the ability to perceive the Winds, just as a Dirarch's singular eye grants them superior WItchsight, but that's getting really pretty radical. Replacing a lost sensory organ that a dwarf originally possessed is one thing. Granting them a whole new sense essentially grafted from another creature is a whole different one.
 
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Quick question about how Odd and Soul of the Earth work with this new modification.

With 3 actions to something that triggers both we get 6 actions in total, and with 4 we get 8, right? Getting Rune Metal 1b done in only 3 actions sounds simply wonderful.
 
I wonder if this is possibly one for Dolgi as well.

The reason is that Windsight is much more than images, as we saw from the descriptions of the various materials last update, there's a whole emotional context to their various flavours. Now, that's hard to convey. I know that the Rune of Brotherhood has been nerfed, but I wonder if Dolgi could somehow be granted some ability to perceive the Winds if he worked alongside one of the Brana he is close to while wearing some combo of Brotherhood with something derived from Translation after more Mind of Things research.
Ehh, well Snorri knows that it's possible to make a prosthetic third arm. Once we are making prosthetic eyes... A third eye could do that.
Hold it in your hand, close your eyes and see the world like a sorcerer.
Its a long shot though... Probably after the rune of sorcery gets invented
 
I'm fully expecting unlocking chain to unlock a brotherhood request for info on it. Also at standing 6 I think we are well past the point where grinding favour is a reasonable way to raise our standing, especially with the brotherhood where earning favour is going to be difficult.
...
I kinda doubt it, its such a precious secret I expect they'll assume Snorri won't share, but thats off topic because its got nothing to do with spending favour on it?
Unless we think spending favour on it will include them and thus they'll know and we won't be able to get favour by sharing. But the working theory is that actual chain is many steps down the line so spending on the first action ought to be safe even then.
 
Bollocks to that, we gave runecraft items to the Griffons before they were bound to the dwarves. As for them being trustworthy or not we've no evidence that they aren't on screen and if you want to go there we have evidence that not even dwarves can be trusted to not fall to chaos, so basically your objection here isn't grounded in the current story or thinking Snori should have.
We gave them a torc iirc. To talk with them, because it was literally not possible otherwise. Their progenitor and king literally gave The Ancestors his heart. So no. Until Asuryan himself comes to give us his heart for safekeeping, or they prove themselves to be steadfast allies the old fashioned way, we will not be giving stuff or peeks at secret knowledge beyond the absolutely necessary for coexisting as species.

EDIT: brought to you by no-scroll gang.
 
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Things I want to try: experimenting with Azrilwut and Durazkul in a single fields.

This could either not-work-out, due to Azrilwut and Durazkul drawing on the same sources of Wind. But at the same time...

Perhaps it could mean that Durazkul could be used as fertilizer for Azrilwut? Or the reverse? Or for Azrilwut-Durazkul crop rotation?

That the stone-like property of Durazkul and Azril-Wutroth... It could have potential as fertilizer for one or the other? Or for crop rotation?

Man, now I want to experiment with Durazkul and Wutroth crop rotation, fertilizers, and planting on the same field, and so on.

... And, of course, being irrigated by the Springs of Valaya. Naturally.

Oh man, that could be really cool. If the North becomes able to do stuff with Wutroth due to being able to irrigate its Wutroth and Durazkul fields with Valaya's Springs. Oh man, so cool!
With that in mind, you spend a good deal of your time writing ever more letters. These were meant to ply the minds of the most paranoid and defensively minded Dawi of the Far North. Engineers, Masons, Rangers, Warriors, all truly wise elders respectfully approached for their advice on how to create a Hold defended not only from above and without but from below and within.
Huh, here's a funny thought: imagining if the canon fate of the Karaz Ankor ever happened...

... And imagining New Karag Dum -- perhaps Kraka Dum? -- as being the only hold that would be perfectly placed to survive those types of challenges and sieges. And thus, be perfectly positioned to be able to provide aid to the rest of its fellows in the North. And to the South and East, even.

Interesting. The thought of New Karag Dum becoming the new capital of the north, post Time of Woes, because it is in the best position to recover.

Man, wouldn't that be a load off the shoulders of the royal line of Karag Dum, huh? They get to finally repay all the aid that their fellow Dawi provided them back when they were in dire straits.
Durazkul was a straightforward substance, something you were imminently thankful for in the wake of your work with Azrilwut.

While they provided no basis for a Rune to be inscribed on, nor as a reagent to be used in one that you knew of, your research discovered that when eaten under the aegis of a Rune of Valaya or Healing their regenerative properties had improved potency. Of all the healing they promoted, however, consuming Durazkul improved the healing of broken bones the most.
Valaya and Healing... And bones. Bones of the Earth.

Hm, actually though...

Didn't Snorri think that some of the Runes on Valaya's Basket look like "Runes of Healing and Load-Bearing" or such?

What if that's related here? That is to say: the Durazkul ability to heal bones, and be like the bones of the earth... maybe that's similar to Healing and Load-Bearing? Load-Bearing being another way to refer to the bones or the pillars of the earth...

... Those Pillars of Valaya. In Karaz-a-Karak I mean.

Pillars hold things up and provide stability and load-bearing of course. But what if there's more than one reason for that? That is, what if Load-Bearing or Stability, is also closely related to the nature of Dwarfkind, too?

Hmmm... I feel like there's something to this? The idea of Dawi, Stone, Load-Bearing, and Healing and Valaya and so on...

On another note, I wonder what eating Durazkul while in the stoneform of Barak Azamar would be like.

I also wonder what would happen if you experimented with planting and growing Azrilwut and Durazkul.
Blizzardwing had little of note to say about the material. Only that they were the stuff of the stones and life, and that the Jade within them was speckled grey. Whatever such a thing meant, as the description even confused the Brana herself.
... What? It can't be the Grey Wind, so... ... Wait. No. Not the Grey Wind, of course.

But what if... Dawi essence, as it were?

The same sort of thing that make Dawi granite-like to Windsight. What if that's also in Durazkul?

Maybe that's why Durazkul can heal bones so well. The Bones of the Earth and all that.
You reckon you could take a crack at this whole palatable dish business. A little salt, some spices, and a few other ingredients and it ought to be decent enough. Thankfully for you, the plants suffered little to no degradation in their healing capabilities even if they were cooked and prepared in a dish.

Sniffing the air you get up from your desk and mosey on over to your forge, where you pull out a charred tuber from a mound of hot coals.

It takes only seconds to peel off the charred outer husk and take a bite out of the inside. You chew thoughtfully for half a minute before swallowing.

Just as you suspected, it needs more than simple salt because that tasted like absolutely nothing at all with flecks of gravel breaking through the monotony.
Again: I want to see what happens if you eat a Durazkul tuber while activating Barak Azamar. Hell, both raw and cooked, even.
According to Blizzardwing and the testimonies of other Brana, the gems pulled at the Ruby Wind, and that for those among them with the ability to see the Winds each stone felt wondrous.

"It is fire, it is safety and warmth, all the passions one tastes but when they are taken in, the bite, the edge is dulled and made pleasant. They sing in concert, and the Ruby Wind dances freely from one to another," Blizzardwing tried to explain to you.

That idea of connection, based on your very limited knowledge of Magic, was the likely culprit for the gem's odd abilities. Curious how such a thing came to be, but it's not as if you could see these Winds in the end.
Huh. Warmth... and connections. Hmm.

Also, this feels like it has obvious implications if you combine Hearthstones and Valaya's Springwater.

Like... Hearthstones around a well of Valaya's Springwater. It should totally do something, right?

Also: perhaps this means that long irrigation lines or aqueducts of Healing Spring water are possible, if you line the passages with Hearthstones.
It was only from Blizzardwing's input that you finally understood what was happening. Using her ability to perceive magic, Blizzardwing deduced that the presence of a Rune altered the magic within the stone as it did the Azrilwut. But in this case, it seemed the Hearthstones had enough magical oomph to actually do something of worth when given direction. So the Runes were in fact impacting the Material and not the other way around, leading the magic within to express itself in a similar fashion but tinted through the energy within itself.
Ah. So... It's like this:

What happens if you apply the Rune of Fire, or an axe with the Rune of Fire, to a piece of wood or paper? It burns.

What happens if you do that to a gallon of water? It boils or heats up.

What happens if you apple the Rune of Fire to a Hearthstone? It does these various things.

... I think I got that right, right? It's sort of like that. Wood, metal, and ceramic or a cauldron with water in it, they all react differently to a Rune of Fire, because the material is different.


That still does, however, tell us that there is more to Runes than we were aware of.

For instance, it tells us something about how Runes do something weird when applied to or on materials that are already magically active or magically infused with winds. Like Azrilwut or Hearthstones.
"Fire, passion, honour, bravery, fortitude, obstinacy. Strength of body and will, good things among your kind I believe."

Describing it as mere Zhufazul seemed inappropriate with that in mind. Almost like a disservice to just what the material represented, though you had a great deal of difficulty coming up with a name to encompass just what the substance was.

Grimnirzan, the Blood of Grimnir. If there was ever a dwarf who embodied the traits Blizzardwing described as present within this stuff…

...well you must agree. Even if it rankles to associate the Ancestor with such magical muckery.

The idea of liquid courage, of a distilled essence of Grimnir though.
It eerily reminded you of the barrels of liquid you had been storing for at least a century now. Another product of your Master Rune of Purification, which only got you more curious, and sadly derailed your attempts to discover potential Rune based applications or interactions with the liquid in question. That perhaps the Master Rune of Purification wasn't the end of something, as you had thought, or even the midway point, but the beginning of something entirely new...and potentially revolutionary if done properly.
So, you know what else this reminded me of?

The description of the brew of Karak Kadrin that Freddy and Baragor (formerly Garagrim) drank, in celebration of the final doom of the Last Slayer King.

========================
Of course, that's when it hits you. White-hot rage, simmering zeal, blazing rods of shame, and a greater sensation of utter fulfillment scalds its way down into your stomach. It is, somehow, the concept of the Slayer King's personified, as well as the knowledge of their grim yet eventual victory. None of Bugman's creations have come close to being as potent, to the point you feel yourself swaying slightly simply from this one drink alone. Darkness fills your vision before immediately being replaced with white spots, your vision almost completely blanking out for a moment before returning to you. It feels like steam is pouring out of your head, sweat popping out all across your body, and yet it is still one of the most satisfactory drinks you've ever had. For a distant moment, you swear you hear the sounds of a great trio of axes wielded by a God crashing together in the distance, a raucous acknowledging laugh booming across your senses.

Then it is over, and you blink, realizing that the mug is empty. Bewildered, you look over at Baragor who grins toothily.

"It's good, eh? They say every last barrel made was personally blessed before Grimnir's statue in Karak Kadrin, each barrel resting for one entire year at his feet before being taken down below to storage."
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It is, somehow, the concept of the Slayer Kings personified.

"Fire, passion, honour, bravery, fortitude, obstinacy. Strength of body and will, good things among your kind I believe."

Also: honor... I wonder how it would work with Oathgold? Oaths are related to honor and all.

I wonder what you could do if you combined Grimnirzan, Oathgold, and the King of the Sky's Crest Feathers?

Man, I want to do that so badly now. I'm not sure if it should be an Axe or a Banner but... I want to use all of those. MGrimnir, Grungni, Brotherhood perhaps?
- +3 progress to Zhufazul, new totals: [Cost: (4 -3) =1 action]
-- Liquid acts like metal but also water. Boils when heated into a shimmering crimson and silver mist, freezes into something resembling red metallic ice.
-- Freezes at lower temperatures than water.
-- The Brana say the liquid sings with strength, obstinacy, fortitude, honour and other associated emotions. Grimnirzan, Grimnir's Blood, you recall Rudil say when he heard that. Hmph.
I want to see what happens if you play around with all these various Ancestor-related ingredients.

Oathgold for Grungni.

Zhufazul/Grimnirzan (and Griffon Feathers) for Grimnir.

Hearthstones for Valaya.

... Also want to see what Zhufazul/Grimnirzan and Hearthstones can do with fire-related stuff. Grimnir, Valaya, and Fire. Perhaps it could result in some kind of healing item or healing weapon even?
Azakit - crafting the essence of a thing
- Akazit, Research unlocked? You have seen and touched things that were once mundane, but through the influence of magic were altered beyond their original form. A new purpose, drawn forth through random chance. Now you wonder if such a thing can be done purposefully, and for your own benefit. The elves called it Alchemy, the art of transmutation, and you wonder just how far you can take the concept behind the Master Rune of Purification. But first you need to actually understand what alchemy is, and that requires a bit of legwork.
So.

The essence of a thing.

That... Is probably what Grungni did with the Throne of Power and Rune of Eternity, huh? He somehow imposed or captured and displayed the essence of eternity?

Is that... what Tier 5 mythic crafting is about? Of crafting the essence of a thing, mightily? Did we stumble on that accidentally with Barak Azamar?
 
So.

The essence of a thing.

That... Is probably what Grungni did with the Throne of Power and Rune of Eternity, huh? He somehow imposed or captured and displayed the essence of eternity?

Is that... what Tier 5 mythic crafting is about? Of crafting the essence of a thing, mightily? Did we stumble on that accidentally with Barak Azamar?
i don't think so. what we are trying with Akazit is altering an object or substance Without putting a rune on it. we want to alter the properties something displays without putting a rune on it. The throne of Eternity IS a runed item. they are different fields
 
Asuryan is way too chicken-hearted to give away his heart to a peer.
[X] Plan: Hearths and embers
[X] Plan Hearth Souls
 
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We gave them a torc iirc. To talk with them, because it was literally not possible otherwise. Their progenitor and king literally gave The Ancestors his heart. So no. Until Asuryan himself comes to give us his heart for safekeeping, or they prove themselves to be steadfast allies the old fashioned way, we will not be giving stuff or peeks at secret knowledge beyond the absolutely necessary for coexisting as species.

EDIT: brought to you by no-scroll gang.
Hypothetically, we could give a torc out to a friendly sapient beast to enable communication. We have precedent for that, at least.
Races that can vocalize do not need runes to facilitate communication, and therefore, runes should only be used for initial contact, and to establish language learning.

Idea: rune of direction + speech as a "speak plainly device" or interrogation device. It verbalizes all your thoughts.
 
Ehh, well Snorri knows that it's possible to make a prosthetic third arm. Once we are making prosthetic eyes... A third eye could do that.
Hold it in your hand, close your eyes and see the world like a sorcerer.
Its a long shot though... Probably after the rune of sorcery gets invented

The thing is, Witchsight isn't just sight, it's a synesthetic sensory experience represeting many things the Winds carry. Not just the presence and absence of magic, but thought, emotion, echoes of the past and future, etc
 
Wow, that was a really good update. The way the call for knowledge went was so organic as opposed to something listless like having a record of debt owed and crossing off this much for aid to Snorri.

And the way his narrative when it came to his research changed in regards to his understanding of magic, that was fascinating.
 
We gave them a torc iirc. To talk with them, because it was literally not possible otherwise. Their progenitor and king literally gave The Ancestors his heart. So no. Until Asuryan himself comes to give us his heart for safekeeping, or they prove themselves to be steadfast allies the old fashioned way, we will not be giving stuff or peeks at secret knowledge beyond the absolutely necessary for coexisting as species.

EDIT: brought to you by no-scroll gang.

What makes you think they haven't already shown themselves to be allies by fighting alongside the dwarves? That's how the elves and dwarves met, I believe, where Caledor Dragontamer and Grimnir negotiated an alliance and then went on to defeat a daemon army, after which Grimnir gave Caledor a protective runic talisman of great power and Caledor gave him a magical crystal artifact.

Given that Grimnir has already commited to an alliance with the elves, it would be a brave runelord who argues the Ancestor God was wrong and that they shouldn't be treated as allies after all, and that it was heresy for a dwarf such as him to give a runic item to an elf.

tl;dr: Giving runic items to elves and getting magical stuff back in return is Ancestor Approved.
 
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The thing is, Witchsight isn't just sight, it's a synesthetic sensory experience represeting many things the Winds carry. Not just the presence and absence of magic, but thought, emotion, echoes of the past and future, etc
I don't think it is possible for dwarfs to ever get the complete sensory picture. At most, we'll get a shadows on the wall kind of thing. Enough to know something is there and guess what it does, but not enough for the nuance and true understanding.
Until we take the first dwelf apprentice (and i say this in a very tongue in cheek way :V)
 
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