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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
It really doesn't, and I'd ask you to explain your thought process for that because there's nothing regarding the concept that goes against the tennants of runecraft, trading a runed item is not the kind of thing that would ever get brought up at a conclave unless we were to be trading with the Dawi-zharr.

Alratan doesn't mean trading how to make runes.
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I think the concern might be that the elves could reverse engineer runes somehow. I don't see the issue honestly since if they were so inclined they could do that off any rune and the grudge would be on them.
 
Alratan said:
Having a well, hit squad of ass-kickers could well be a pretty useful thing to have on hand during an emergency.




We trade runecraft literally all the time. What do you think our commissions are? There's no restriction on selling our works.

The precedent of giving runecraft to other species was set by the Ancestor Gods when they gave the torc to the King of the Sky. I'd be more than happy to give an elven archmage a ring or crown of translation in return for an education.
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we trade runecarft to drawfs and griffion. our species and another species thats bound to ours. the elfs are not bound to us and not even trustworthy
 
SuperSonicSound said:
It really doesn't, and I'd ask you to explain your thought process for that because there's nothing regarding the concept that goes against the tennants of runecraft, trading a runed item is not the kind of thing that would ever get brought up at a conclave unless we were to be trading with the Dawi-zharr.
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Not a runed item, but runes.

Article:
Never reveal the secrets of magic runecraft to any other than a fellow runesmith or one's own carefully chosen apprentice
Never allow any non-Dwarf who has somehow acquired some knowledge of runic magic to pass on their knowledge. This especially applies to humans who style themselves as "rune masters."


Runes or other such knowledge is a big no on multiple levels.

Rune items I'm leery of because of the above two tenets because the context is very different from the Brana. First, the elves were not the ones given runic items so I expect the conservatives would make some ugly noises about it. Second, it'd be in context handing an item to an elven archmage who can literally look at it and give a go at trying to reverse engineer it.

Also again, I don't even see why it'd be necessary when we're likely to be provided with means to do it on our own anyway, and if we learn Eltharin like I want to there'd be no need for translation anyway.

Alratan said:
After several thousand years in canon they had no such luck.

The Brana can also see the Winds, and no one has ever raised this as a possible concern, so I'm very highly sceptical that this is a good faith objection.
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It wasn't brought up for them because I wouldn't actually care if they did? We're on good relations with them and with the various connections and alliances made there's enough political clout to navigate it with only some fuss and bother. Not so with the elves.
 
Alratan said:
After several thousand years in canon they had no such luck.

The Brana can also see the Winds, and no one has ever raised this as a possible concern, so I'm very highly sceptical that this is a good faith objection.

Snorri said in a prior update that he might need to pay an elf to teach him Eltharin. Do you expect that just to happen in the background, when we have a write-in section for when we want to pay other people to do things for Snorri?
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reminder we have an action called Eltarin. in which we learn it, the cost is 20 favour with the hold the elves trade with. so yes i do expect it to be done in the background
 
endless void said:
we trade runecarft to drawfs and griffion. our species and another species thats bound to ours. the elfs are not bound to us and not even trustworthy
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Right, the species that beat back Chaos as much as Grimnir did, the one that built the Waystone network, those people are not trustworthy enough to be traded runes?

I believe that is the voice of metagaming whispering in your ear.
 
endless void said:
we trade runecarft to drawfs and griffion. our species and another species thats bound to ours. the elfs are not bound to us and not even trustworthy
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Bollocks to that, we gave runecraft items to the Griffons before they were bound to the dwarves. As for them being trustworthy or not we've no evidence that they aren't on screen and if you want to go there we have evidence that not even dwarves can be trusted to not fall to chaos, so basically your objection here isn't grounded in the current story or thinking Snori should have.

Alratan said:
After several thousand years in canon they had no such luck.
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Considering that dwarves believe that only descendants from Thungni are capable of learning runecraft and given that runecraft ability isn't actually the ability to manipulate the winds of magic it stands to reason that this isn't really a possibility any way, if it was then the Brana would obviously be of such a risk for this that it wouldn't matter. To top it off given the literal thousands of years that pass in the original setting where this doesn't happen it's pretty clearly not a risk.

DragonParadox said:
I believe that is the voice of metagaming whispering in your ear.
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Yep the only reason to wary of the Elves is if you're pulling information from main setting, but then if you're doing that it also dynamites the argument about reverse engineering which is clearly nonsense. The Elves don't even have a tower of Hoeth equivalent right now, they're actually less magically pussiant than they will be in the future.
 
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I don't think they're going to be ABLE to reverse engineer it, in OTL it was certainly not for lack of trying.

Whether they're worthy of wielding whats essentially a divine relic is another matter, but lesser runework, not Master Runes should be legitimate.
 
Alratan said:
Great update.

Loads of potential future research paths implied here. Not just Alchemy, but also what runes might be able to do when applied to items deliberately enchanted with the Winds of Magic or with Qhaysh spells.

I also now really want to put a network of blood vessels inside any Grimnir Gronti we make...

I think it's going to really be worth learning Eltharin as soon as possible, and then looking for books on Aonoquean.
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I agree so much with this! I feel like fully runed and comprehended Grimnirzan will bestow something like amazing healing abilities for whatever it's effecting. Or something like a Banner that makes dwarves fight harder the more they are wounded, with those same wounds then being absorbed by the banner to be unleashed in an area.

Plus, it's just another aspect towards making Gronti more real, and more effective.
 
veekie said:
I don't think they're going to be ABLE to reverse engineer it, in OTL it was certainly not for lack of trying.

Whether they're worthy of wielding whats essentially a divine relic is another matter.
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And that second is what I'm mainly worried about since to the view of most dwarves I expect it looks absolutely scandalous.
 
Note that in canon some runes were designed by collaborations of runelords and elven archmages and the elves still never worked out how to make dwarf style runes themselves.

Note how we use runes as light bulbs before waxing lyrical about them being divine relics. And how Snorri started making runes to facilitate communication with the griffins on his own without significant qualms.

Not to mention that we can start by trying to use our absurd wealth to hire a suitable teacher - but it seems much easier to have a teacher using a rune of translation (a rune which only makes sense to be used by a non-dwarf, making the entire argument that a non-dwarf using it is heresy bizarre) than trying to puzzle things out from a book.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Right, the species that beat back Chaos as much as Grimnir did, the one that built the Waystone network, those people are not trustworthy enough to be traded runes?

I believe that is the voice of metagaming whispering in your ear.
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i mean the thing is, to the dwarves they are. Grimnir huffed at them and that's it, we have tarded with them for 80 years and that's it. the dwarves and Elves aren't friends yet. Unless someone else Or Thungi gives them something runed i won't. reminder that the Brana were only preperly accepted to be given runes after Thungi gave the King of the Skies his item
 
Alratan said:
I think that learning Eltharin may make comprehending the Master Rune of Purification easier if we can then understand the Winds and alchemical transformation better.

Also, I know this might be pretty radical, but are we rich enough to pay an elven alchemist-archmage to come and teach us directly using a translation rune? @soulcake, could we do a write in 'trade' for this? Even if we have to pay in runecraft it would be worth it...

Edit: to be clear, by runecraft I mean items with runes on, rather than the absurd suggestion of the secrets of how to make them.
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Valma doesn't have books covering half the winds. Are you infavour of waiting to research MPurification until the collection gets completed then?
 
BungieONI said:
It wasn't brought up for them because I wouldn't actually care if they did? We're on good relations with them and with the various connections and alliances made there's enough political clout to navigate it with only some fuss and bother. Not so with the elves.
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if the brana reverse engine how to craft runes the Guild of Thungni would murder them, I don't want that to be the case but it's how they would react alliance be damned. There's no risk of the elves being able to reverse engineer runecraft literally none.


Rovos said:
i mean the thing is, to the dwarves they are. Grimnir huffed at them and that's it, we have tarded with them for 80 years and that's it. the dwarves and Elves aren't friends yet. Unless someone else Or Thungi gives them something runed i won't. reminder that the Brana were only preperly accepted to be given runes after Thungi gave the King of the Skies his item
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The first translation item was made by Snorri, Thungni then did one better but i'm pretty sure your timeline of events is wrong here.
 
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Alratan said:
I think that learning Eltharin may make comprehending the Master Rune of Purification easier if we can then understand the Winds and alchemical transformation better.

Also, I know this might be pretty radical, but are we rich enough to pay an elven alchemist-archmage to come and teach us directly using a translation rune? @soulcake, could we do a write in 'trade' for this? Even if we have to pay in runecraft it would be worth it...

Edit: to be clear, by runecraft I mean items with runes on, rather than the absurd suggestion of the secrets of how to make them.
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There's "radical" and then there's blatent heresy, the Dawi actively kill any non-dawi trying to gain runes and giving them away to non-dawi is a feat that would get us a major grudging. So...let's not continue that particular train of thought, any trade with the Elves will have to be conducted through other means.
 
I mean, I'd be surprised if the issue of giving Elves a ruined item hasn't come up just yet. It's been a while since contact was established, and given the clear exchange of information going on the Elves have to at least know about runes as a concept- and it would be both a curiosity and a major prestige item for them. No journeyman anywhere selling a piece to the Elves? I just don't see it. Maybe no Runelords have gotten wholly involved, and maybe no Master Runes- but it would be of so much interest and the Dwarfs have precedent that runic items with a foreign nation isn't out of line.
 
On the matter of what the elves did to deserve runework, even master runes. They saved the world.

It is as simple as that. Without Anaerion the Defender, without the sacrifice of Calandor Dragontamer we would all be dead, Snori and Karak Drak, all dwarfs everywhere and the Ancestor Gods themselves would all have been swallowed by a tide of Chaos. Now mind Ulthuuan would likely be dead without Grimnir's sacrifice too, but I think the mutual saving of our entire races is worth some respect regardless.
 
Kufufu said:
There's "radical" and then there's blatent heresy, the Dawi actively kill any non-dawi trying to gain runes and giving them away to non-dawi is a feat that would get us a major grudging. So...let's not continue that particular train of thought, any trade with the Elves will have to be conducted through other means.
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Alratan is not talking about trading the secrets of how to make runes.
 
By the way, I'm sure this'd be a waaaaay distant future sort of thing, but developing alchemy as a dwarf institution seems like the sort of thing that might be Ancestor God Worthy, if it catches on and becomes useful to the dawi. It's not quite, say, inventing Runesmithing, but it'd certainly be changing the playing field, if it works out and we don't get burned at the stake as some kind of super-traitor.
 
Rovos said:
Like i said. Accepted to be given runes. SNorri did it to make communication possible and people, especially conservatives were not happy with it untill Thungi gave his to the KoTS
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Well if we're taking tradition to absurd levels then Snorri is in the clear, after all it's traditional for Snorri to make a runic item to give to the first representative of a new species he or his relatives meet.
 
Alratan said:
Note that in canon some runes were designed by collaborations of runelords and elven archmages and the elves still never worked out how to make dwarf style runes themselves.

Note how we use runes as light bulbs before waxing lyrical about divine relics.
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That is a good point about the collabs.

But as I said politics is the bigger kicker about this and what others think. Handing the Brana a translation torque before Thungni did caused rumbles Soul mentioned later which were then nullified by years of working well together and Thungni's own actions.

DragonParadox said:
On the matter of what the elves did to deserve runework, even master runes. They saved the world.

It is as simple as that. Without Anaerion the Defender, without the sacrifice of Calandor Dragontamer we would all be dead, Snori and Karak Drak, all dwarfs everywhere and the Ancestor Gods themselves would all have been swallowed by a tide of Chaos. Now mind Ulthuuan would likely be dead without Grimnir's sacrifice too, but I think the mutual saving of our entire races is worth some respect regardless.
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The question then is how much does the House of Runelords actually know about what they did? Its unclear what they know, so while this is all true they may not be on the Dwarves good books for it yet.
 
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