1 stability gain from EJ. 1 stability and legitimacy gain from Proclaim Glory. We will be at 4/4 stability and 4/4 legitimacy.
This does not include stability gain from completing the Dam project, either.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
1 stability gain from EJ. 1 stability and legitimacy gain from Proclaim Glory. We will be at 4/4 stability and 4/4 legitimacy.
This does not include stability gain from completing the Dam project, either.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
Sure, with EJ and PG, we get to max Stab/Legit. That is what I said. But the person I was quoting wasn't voting for PG, which is why I suggested swapping Repair out for PG.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Can't remember when but yes I believe we were and it was unremarkable. @Abby Normal were we ever at 4 stability?
I thought the winning vote is giving us everything we want?
Ancient Scholar
Amateur Editor/Beta
- Location
- United States
I hope DL collapses in the face of the king and Patricians. We should be able to switch the dominant power next turn so we are able to suppress the Patricians if we have too.
Winning vote is going to lead to one of two things:
-3 Secondary More Warships (admin roll wealth)
-1 Secondary More Warships (fail quest)
ExNihilo
SPACE!
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
First: Yeah, mass tagging ain't great.
Second: Completety unironically, yes. I don't want to repeat myself any more than needed, my post under M-D's most recent is still my opinion, but DHE is wonderful, other than the one bad part.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Aren't we innovated enough right now? I think we need to settle in and finish up some of the fundamentals that we've been putting off, like connectivity and education stuff.
Honestly, it's a bit frustrating in the short term but I think we can make it do work.
See the problem as far as I'm considered is we have a super-competent ruling class that demands it excels in almost all things. Most patricians can be assumed to be competent, unfortunately for us this means they wind up being wily bastards exploiting the system for them and theirs.
So it's rather simple, start grabbing some honor values suited to make Patricians more inclined to duty/service to those beneath them. If we're having to introduce feudalism and de jure private property than hit them with Nobless Oblige until they stop crying. Establish a social and cultural imperative that the patricians get the best and are the best to act in the interests of those they rule over. It's not a perfect solution but establishing the concept in our culture could do a lot to ameliorate the worst of the Patricians.
That's what I'd like to see from this culture hero. Nobles are grand, powerful, wise and clever because the gods demand they use this to exalt and support those beneath them. So, in other words I think it's time we really start collecting honor values if we want our intelligent and capable ruling class to comport itself with morals and honor
The upper class will never have the best interest of the lower classes in mind they are built on the backs of the people. Nobless Oblige is just propaganda to convince the poor that the nobles are helping them while they kick them down while they gain more power and wealth.
Ancient Scholar
Amateur Editor/Beta
- Location
- United States
I knew it!!!Don't let him become heir? Of course, I have such wondrous plans finally coming to fruition.
DL is AN's plot to Doom us all!
I was talking to one person in particular, who was voting against PG.
The current winning vote is great, except for the fact that it might fail the Trader quest if someone so much as looks at our Wealth score wrong.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Which if things go how I think will actually lead to a flood of more innovations than just taking innovation actions.
Additionally on this matter I think that the particular thing we need to watch for are stability maintaining traits like In Service to Order. That one was explicitly counter to Philosopher Kings which is about innovation and testing. We probably won't develop them though because we have PK, so no real need to worry in my book.
I just want to say that I think that we got incredibly lucky here. We probably would have evolved this con some point in our future, and we would have probably been forced to DL soon after. At least it occurred now, when we had a king who could mitigate the damage that DL would cause, and at least it occurred before we had invested a large amount of time and resources trying to keep it suppressed.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Or we could've evolved symphony and ended up with Arete being pushed out and gotten cheaper actions and cemented the communal aspects of our culture
- Location
- his hidden lair
See, this is why everyone thought you were being petty and argumentative
The problem with your insistence that the upper classare evul and never going to help the lower class falls flat here because the ruling class is dependent on influence, favors, and appearances to rise here.
Which means Nobless oblige even as propaganda has impact because the nobles have to maintain that pretence and can use that to attack others who don't go through the proper motions of supporting their subordinates. It's not simply a case of expecting the patricians to be virtuous, but altering the system to reward the (at least) appearance of certain virtues and letting them use that as leverage to undermine those who don't have even that much.
Keep in mind, we've already established the quality of one's subordinates reflects on ones own qualities. So naturally the King's closest subordinates should have quality subordinates, and etc. Just establish that one's holdings and those on them are also a reflection. Use said obligation not as an appeal to their better natures, but societal and cultural pressures that can open and close doors for them.
Sure, being petty and over taxing your holdings might give you money for gifts and bribes, but if it reflects poorly on you personally? Or is a vector your enemies could use to shame you? Than suddenly higher taxes and exploits become less attractive, because they're now as much a potentially liability than anything else.
Yeah, no. We could have evolved symphony, sure, but I strongly doubt we would have seen Arete pushed out.Or we could've evolved symphony and ended up with Arete being pushed out and gotten cheaper actions and cemented the communal aspects of our culture
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Yeah, the culture cost is kinda high tho. The trait upgrade to prevent suppression of dominant faction was an unexpected blessing in my view, but very happy that it did not increase martial shift in our civ.
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Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Pretty sure we were, yeah. Not sure we managed it for a full turn, but i think we at least had it for a phase?
See, this is why everyone thought you were being petty and argumentative
The problem with your insistence that the upper classare evul and never going to help the lower class falls flat here because the ruling class is dependent on influence, favors, and appearances to rise here.
Which means Nobless oblige even as propaganda has impact because the nobles have to maintain that pretence and can use that to attack others who don't go through the proper motions of supporting their subordinates. It's not simply a case of expecting the patricians to be virtuous, but altering the system to reward the (at least) appearance of certain virtues and letting them use that as leverage to undermine those who don't have even that much.
Keep in mind, we've already established the quality of one's subordinates reflects on ones own qualities. So naturally the King's closest subordinates should have quality subordinates, and etc. Just establish that one's holdings and those on them are also a reflection. Use said obligation not as an appeal to their better natures, but societal and cultural pressures that can open and close doors for them.
Sure, being petty and over taxing your holdings might give you money for gifts and bribes, but if it reflects poorly on you personally? Or is a vector your enemies could use to shame you? Than suddenly higher taxes and exploits become less attractive, because they're now as much a potentially liability than anything else.
The nobles are going to be the ones to decide what is virtuous and honourable, and use it to force the lower classes to believe they have their best interest in mind.
The gifts and bribes from overtaxing your holdings are going to go to soldiers and other noble's to turn a blind eye to what you are doing and force the lower classes to take it. Why would other nobles attack you through it when they could just do the samething and benefit themselves?
Stop: You seem to have problems understanding
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
you seem to have problems understanding
Here, let me help you. How could you possibly think that tagging 33 voters to shame them for their choice was ever a good idea? Wait, don't answer, I'll just give you the infraction for being disruptive (and violating the actual threadbanner) and the seven-day threadban. Enjoy your vacation and do not ever do this again.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for your time.
The current plan has a problem. Right now, we're voting to do:
[ ] [Secondary] Distribute Land
[ ] [Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[ ] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[ ] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[ ] [Secondary] Repair Damage
[ ] [Secondary] Found Free City - Lower Valleyhome
[ ] [Secondary] Found Free City - Sacred Forest
[ ] [Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[ ] [Secondary]Repair Damage x2
[ ] [Guild Sec] More Warships
As it currently sits, we can't complete the Trader quest. We're spending 7 of our 12 Wealth in this plan so no one will be able to make Warships with any of their actions. Since Faction actions are Main strength, we need at least 8 Wealth available for them to take More Warships.
[ ] [Secondary] More Warships currently sits 3 votes behind Repair Damage x2. In order to pass the Trader quest, we need it to climb up 3 votes or have Proclaim Glory drop 6 votes so it's forgotten.
Please reconsider your votes in light of this information. We need to either drop Proclaim Glory or Repair Damage x2. We don't have the Wealth an action space to do both. One must go.
[X] [Secondary] More Warships
[ ] [Secondary] Distribute Land
[ ] [Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[ ] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[ ] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[ ] [Secondary] Repair Damage
[ ] [Secondary] Found Free City - Lower Valleyhome
[ ] [Secondary] Found Free City - Sacred Forest
[ ] [Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[ ] [Secondary]Repair Damage x2
[ ] [Guild Sec] More Warships
As it currently sits, we can't complete the Trader quest. We're spending 7 of our 12 Wealth in this plan so no one will be able to make Warships with any of their actions. Since Faction actions are Main strength, we need at least 8 Wealth available for them to take More Warships.
[ ] [Secondary] More Warships currently sits 3 votes behind Repair Damage x2. In order to pass the Trader quest, we need it to climb up 3 votes or have Proclaim Glory drop 6 votes so it's forgotten.
Please reconsider your votes in light of this information. We need to either drop Proclaim Glory or Repair Damage x2. We don't have the Wealth an action space to do both. One must go.
[X] [Secondary] More Warships
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Nomads, and possibly highlanders.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
@Academia Nut I know you said we are on the path for a Sec Warships + Main Warships, so I had a question. King's agenda actions are secondaries unless they fuse or are doubled right?
- Location
- Hell
This is hilarious.
Not only is this bull, but completely misses my point.
The action needs the authorization of the King to do it. Yet ye does not do it and the quest fails. Now Civil War. Yet despite it beimg completely his fault I have no idea why it would make sense for him to turn around and join the civil war on the other side. Immediately after he denied the request for Distribute Land.
Except... We were already doing that. That was already in place, that is how our Artisan Games came into conception. We did not need this 'upgrade' to do that.
Considering the Priest are at such low faction power, nobody in game would care.
It is also is the exact same you could say about slavery. Almost all the factions are either for it or apathetic.
Considering the situation of 80% being against the Urban Patricians and the difference growing even wider, I really do not think they will care.
On top of everything already said... That is not how you actually tag voters
Lord's Loyalty!!!See, this is why everyone thought you were being petty and argumentative
The problem with your insistence that the upper classare evul and never going to help the lower class falls flat here because the ruling class is dependent on influence, favors, and appearances to rise here.
Which means Nobless oblige even as propaganda has impact because the nobles have to maintain that pretence and can use that to attack others who don't go through the proper motions of supporting their subordinates. It's not simply a case of expecting the patricians to be virtuous, but altering the system to reward the (at least) appearance of certain virtues and letting them use that as leverage to undermine those who don't have even that much.
Keep in mind, we've already established the quality of one's subordinates reflects on ones own qualities. So naturally the King's closest subordinates should have quality subordinates, and etc. Just establish that one's holdings and those on them are also a reflection. Use said obligation not as an appeal to their better natures, but societal and cultural pressures that can open and close doors for them.
Sure, being petty and over taxing your holdings might give you money for gifts and bribes, but if it reflects poorly on you personally? Or is a vector your enemies could use to shame you? Than suddenly higher taxes and exploits become less attractive, because they're now as much a potentially liability than anything else.
We do not need new Honor Values, we already have it. We just need to upgrade it somehow._.
Maybe Influence/Support Subordinate chains?
On the topic of Values, I am starting to wonder if they are less things added to the Ymaryn Culture and more parts of it already there solidifying into something we can benefit from, suffer from, and actually change.
So more traits that are not immediately filled by Pride in Acceptance would help with things like this, I think.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Yes by getting another honor value and merging.