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Paths of Civilization

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Abby Normal said:
Awesome :) Anyone else want in?
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Not enough to really get involved, but I'll give you some direction so you can adequately falsely portray me.

Redzonejoe does not get riled up about actual drama. He finds chaos interesting and negative events are neat. However, redzonejoe does tend to get caught up on the little side things, like common logical fallacies or people jumping to conclusions.

Negaredzonejoe, aka BlueAreaBob, is a bit of a troll. He totally gets pissed off about things going wrong, and his coping mechanism is to double down on the snarkiness and pick fights with people he consistently disagrees with. Sometimes he'll vote against people instead of for his favored choice, out of spite. He generally favors a 'Kill all enemies' approach, but is not against using allies for efficiency and profit.

BlueAreaBob thinks that his opposite would be GreenRegionGrass, a peace loving hippie who tries to get everybody to cooperate. GreenRegionGrass is obviously one of the driving forces behind the Hill People and their love of herbs farming.
 
redzonejoe said:
Not enough to really get involved, but I'll give you some direction so you can adequately falsely portray me.

Redzonejoe does not get riled up about actual drama. He finds chaos interesting and negative events are neat. However, redzonejoe does tend to get caught up on the little side things, like common logical fallacies or people jumping to conclusions.

Negaredzonejoe, aka BlueAreaBob, is a bit of a troll. He totally gets pissed off about things going wrong, and his coping mechanism is to double down on the snarkiness and pick fights with people he consistently disagrees with. Sometimes he'll vote against people instead of for his favored choice, out of spite. He generally favors a 'Kill all enemies' approach, but is not against using allies for efficiency and profit.

BlueAreaBob thinks that his opposite would be GreenRegionGrass, a peace loving hippie who tries to get everybody to cooperate. GreenRegionGrass is obviously one of the driving forces behind the Hill People and their love of herbs farming.
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I actually was planning on having the fake-AU use real usernames; seemed easier funnier that way :p Hell, i even went to the actual update where we found out about the wall of bone and slightly modified some actual responses...in large part because AN snarky response to "can we steal tech with blackbirds" about how we can steal any technology that's been written down on paper in the neolithic is still hilarious :p
 
Abby Normal said:
I actually was planning on having the fake-AU use real usernames; seemed easier funnier that way :p Hell, i even went to the actual update where we found out about the wall of bone and slightly modified some actual responses...in large part because AN snarky response to "can we steal tech with blackbirds" about how we can steal any technology that's been written down on paper in the neolithic is still hilarious :p
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But... But why would a hippie's favorite colour be red? Bob is confused. Plus 'grass' is totally a clever play on his last name!

Eh, whateves. Use what applies, discard the rest. Looking forward to the finished product :)
 
Candesce said:
Yeah.

We might end up hitting someone with a holy war, and when asked "what did they do so that we don't trigger that again," have an answer other civs are a lot less likely to accept than "don't use biowarfare." That could suck.

Finding a different improvement for our stability actions (it doesn't have to be RoO) would be better than trying to recover Sacred War and Restore Harmony, at this point, I think.
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Well, I don't actualy mind going that route personally.

Just that we should be aware of both downsides and advantages of the approach. It's become nearly routine to downplay all downsides/risks and exaggerate advantages of your side and the reverse for the opposed that it's just good practice.
DocMatoi said:
Please be gentle

I think (hope) that if we manage to shake the copper belief, we'll get a trait about seeking the truth, which will give us a binus to dodging debilitating beliefs
Like
Observance => The Eye Unclouded
Crow's teachings are not always obvious, and sometimes they are easily misunderstood. We must test that which we learn to ensure that it is correct. Those who do this and do it well should be respected.
Pro: less likely to acquire Foolish beliefs, Scholar class
Con: You're just that little bit more insufferable...
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Probably going to take acquiring and purging multiple superstitions to get there unless we get really lucky with a well timed Mysticism + Diplomacy Hero.

Having Crow the Trickster as one of our 'pantheon head' aspects is pretty helpful at least.
BungieONI said:
Where I was going with floating Fairness.


Law Above All? That... Could work.

We'd be shifting our civ's alignment towards Lawful Neutral instead of Neutral Good.
Didn't you at one point float an idea of enshrining the Law itself as a Spiritual value?
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Yes, and we did sort of do that with Symphony.
There are risks of course, with something like that. Big risks.
We kinda sorta already have charity, a combo of Humility and Symphony.
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Cosmopolitan Acceptance is our Charity line. It evolved from our Sharing Circle after all. We're charitable to a nearly absurd degree.
What kinda Honor value do you speculate might pop up from grand constructions?

Would it work something like:

-Building something that will last is good.
-Showing your skill in building things great and small is a way to status.
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Something like:
Glory to the Makers
Greatness is achieved in works of permanance. When you are gone, all that remains of you are what you made.
Pros: Improved art and construction projects. Monuments available.
Cons: Chance of Stability loss when major projects are lost, replaced or damaged. Leaders will desire monuments

Or the like.

Candesce said:
Keep in mind that Symphony's disadvantage tends to show in injustices getting buried and ignored. We need to actively watch out for that.
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Yeah, Symphony means that the culturally correct thing is to hunker down, work hard and don't make waves. Whether injustice, or ambition, it's treated the same.
Abby Normal said:
So i've finally figured out the obvious evolution of the Nega-verse omakes...Nega-verse omakes about the real verse :V

So i've got a fake omake* by "Usual James", one of the players of the Dead Priest universe Nega-SV, about how they think the "Beast Folk" would have responded to finding out about their Wall of Bones, and i was about to write up the fake comments when i realized the obvious solution was to have actual "Beast Folk" players do the responding.

So if anyone wants to pretend to be a parody of themselves, playing a distorted image of our civ as portrayed by a parody-me who loves sacrifice and thinks eqalitarian nature lovers are stupid and prone to failure, let me know :p I'll start up a private conversation with anyone interested and share the fake update. Once the interested people have commented, i'll add in some more Dead Priest players commenting on the complete fake-omake, and then we'll have a complete omake...and proof to @Academia Nut that his comments about "Nega-SV" driving the other civs has spawned something terrible :p

@zamin @Powerofmind @Citino @notgreat You've all done omakes, so would you be interested?

*...an ofake, perhaps? :V
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Sounds like fun, though I have no idea what's involved.

Umi-san said:
k and...?

What is Harmony? What counts as harmonious? That's just redefining "Just" as "Harmonious." It's shifting the scale to a different stand.
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Harmony is about fitting in, being in tune with the majority. Cooperating even when it's not in your best interests. Compromising over holding to a stance.

Kiba said:
I am a bit worried about the administrative upgrade causing us to redline centralization.
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Hierarchy. Admin adds to Hierarchy
 
hylas240 said:
@Academia Nut What are the value of our civ's stat points compared to other civs?
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Well since AN seems busy for the moment I'll take a certain stab at what we do know:

The Econ Ranking
-Our Econ
-Xoh & West MW Econ
-HK Econ
-Nomad Econ
-TH Econ

Reason I rate the Nomads above the TH is that even though the TH is settled there are a fuckload of Nomads so they have the power of quantity.
I don't know enough about the SHP to really rate them but I think they are above the HK and possibly around the Western MW.
 
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Recursive Negaverse (We Must Go Deeper)
  • Apocrypha
    • Recursive Negaverse (We Must Go Deeper)​
    Usual James said:
    Hey @Scholarly Pea, I figured I'd jump on the negaverse-omake bandwagon. Assuming minaz was right about the hints about the Beast Folk's spy units, they sound like the best group to show a reaction post for the Wall of Bones completion. What do they call themselves? And us? And I guess any other minor details you're willing to share instead of us having to wait until we get close enough and can get the information from killing half of them and enslaving the rest :p
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    Scholarly Pea said:
    They call themselves "The People", of course :p. And like you guessed, you'll have to find out most of the details yourselves, but I'll just say that where the other civs are based on stereotypes I've seen in quests, their Nega-VS is more an inverse of the usual VS attitude. They're a group full of the rare dissenting voice pushing for peace and equality and focusing on mundane infrastructure and being in tune with nature even in games like this. Only a few people picked up on the hints I placed a few updates ago, but they're not attacking you for glory or wives or trophies or anything. They're attacking because you "Dead Priests" are an affront to their entire philosophy and spiritual beliefs…you know, like if the Demons were actually being honest about their reasons. Oh, speaking of spiritual beliefs, their main spirit is "Crow", just so you've got a name to toss out. In general, their religion's a lot less advanced than yours—they don't have anything like your Doom score, for example—but maintaining "harmony" is really important to them.
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    Usual James said:
    Nega-verse Omake: Nega-verse Omake: Beast Folk vs the Wall of Bones
    The People were fraying at the seams. Things had been going wrong on all fronts for years. The spirits of the earth had grown restless, leading to minor crop failures. The wisemen tried to placate them, but their sacrifices of grain and game were ignored and simply made everyone's rations even thinner. The wisemen and the chiefs responded as all those who can and must do: by hoarding what they could for themselves and their families. This angered the People, and there were increasing calls for the leadership to be replaced.

    And yet, the disharmony at home was nothing compared to that in the Dead Lands. Their warriors made use of their war carts, avoiding a committed battle and disrupting the more powerful Dead Priest warriors, but when fights did break out, they were hard pressed to survive. The reduced rations did little to help the outnumbered warriors, and in the end their efforts did little more than disrupt the occasional raid. Their carefully chosen and trained scouts fared better, stealthily disrupting the enemy's slave overseers and disappearing before warriors could notice. Then, during the lull months when the rivers were inundated, a group of Crow's Scouts finally made it close enough to report on the enemy's capital. Surrounded by enough farms to feed the whole of the People, a grand city rose from a squat hill, filled with a mesmerizing swirl of buildings surrounding a grandiose, bloodstained holy site—an artificial hill where the Dead Priests bathed their gods in blood.

    Even more than the size and power of their enemies stronghold, even more than the center point of their disharmonious sacrifices, it was the wall protecting their city that struck the scouts to their souls. An enormous structure, the Wall surrounding the capital was perhaps four times larger than the greatest works of the People…and it was decorated in the most macabre of ways. Bricks filled with skulls, presumably taken from sacrifices and killed warriors, had been added to the outside of the wall as decoration. Dozens of villages must have been slaughtered to provide even those currently added, and the piles of skulls waiting to be fired into bricks must have outnumbered even this city. The People wouldn't be happy when they heard of this…

    How should we deal with the popular discontent?
    [] Dip into the food stores to increase rations. None shall go hungry! [Lose Econ]
    [] Ignore them. The chief and wisemen are stewards of the People and to be trusted [Lose Stability, small chance of uprising]
    [] Recall the warriors from the Dead Lands, and have them keep a lid on things [Prevents offensive missions this turn, chance of stability loss]
    [] Perhaps the Dead Priests are onto something with this slavery business… [Lose Stability, massive econ gains]

    The People are aghast at the Wall of Bones [Lose Stability]. How should we respond to the Dead Priests?
    [] This disharmony cannot be ignored! Build more war carts and send more men to teach them harmony! [Costs a lot of econ, gain stability, cannot choose "Recall" above]
    [] Focus more efforts on the war [Locks in a war mission next turn, cannot choose "Recall" above]
    [] We have more important things to focus on… [Chance of additional stability loss]
    [] If we send some of our people to them, maybe they'll leave us alone… [Lose econ, gain diplo, can't send war mission to the Dead Priests next turn]

    Xantalos said:
    Well. Fucking dead priests. Fucking demons fucking nomads fucking skull walls fucking warhammers fucking bourgeoisie in our society gonna shank you all real good
    [K] Ignore them. The chief and wisemen are stewards of the People and to be trusted [Lose Stability, small chance of uprising]
    [K] Focus more efforts on the war [Locks in a war mission next turn, cannot choose "Recall" above]
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    tri2 said:
    huh, just had a thought but since we have stealth specialists, can we send them into enemy cities to steal tech?
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    Academia Nut said:
    Sure, they can sneak and steal the plans any time there is a technology written down as plans.
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    Deadly Snark said:
    Dammit…people keep talking about how we can handle the DPs later. Well "later" might just mean ''The DPs have eaten the WC and kicked the shit out of the ST, oh shit, oh shit.'' considering how well they apparently were holding up while working on a fucking Mega Project!
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    veekie said:
    Looks like they just raided their neighbors tovmake up the economy hit really.
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    Abby Normal said:
    Good point veekie…it's almost like slavery and war-raiding is really really useful in the Neolithic…
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    notgreat said:
    [K] Dip into the food stores to increase rations. None shall go hungry! [Lose Econ]
    [K] This disharmony cannot be ignored! Build more war carts and send more men to teach them harmony! [Costs a lot of econ, gain stability, cannot choose "Recall" above]
    Seems pretty obvious to me. We have to spend all our non-war actions next turn putting our econ back to a safe level, but we've been sitting here farming for the past several centuries, might as well do it some more. We've got the econ to spare, and we need our population happy with us to keep harmony intact.
    Yeah, we don't get any tech, but who cares about that? We can just sit here safe in our valley and keep on farming. I don't see any possible way this could go wrong as long as we keep these horrible monsters far enough away from us.
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    BungieONI said:
    Well fuck...

    Seems I was right not to make any plans. You silly people who have 6 turn plans!

    obviously we must attack attack attack!

    We are the awesome Dwelfar!

    And we won't stand for this!

    [K] Dip into the food stores to increase rations. None shall go hungry! [Lose Econ]
    [K] This disharmony cannot be ignored! Build more war carts and send more men to teach them harmony! [Costs a lot of econ, gain stability, cannot choose "Recall" above]

    No "Bali Mangthi Kali Ma!" for me!
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    Umi-san said:
    Well, shit. I guess as @veekie was right, they were on to something. I'm not happy about all the people starving... and tbh it's not like our carts can do anything.... let's just leave them alone for a bit? Hugging trees is hella but hugging food is better.

    [J] Dip into the food stores to increase rations. None shall go hungry! [Lose Econ]
    [K] We have more important things to focus on… [Chance of additional stability loss]
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    DocMatoi said:
    Oh come on, Academia Nut! They're keeping a bunch of slaves in check, AND fighting a 3 or more front war, AND built a megaproject???
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    BlueAreaBob said:
    Wait...they call us the Dead Priests? I can't decide if that's awesome or insulting...
    Nice omake, though, James :) now maybe WeaknessOfSpirit will admit that he's way overestimating the fucking beast folk, and will stop trying to distract us from finishing off the lowlands as is our right :V
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    Hella-kun said:
    Lel, maybe the hippies *will* finally give up and join us. They have chariots but can't beat our warriors when they reach them, and it's not like their scouts would climb our wall even if the skulls make nice handholds.
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    Umbral said:
    Not bad. Thinking about how other civs are reacting to us building the first Megaproject is certainly fun!

    Not sure it's reasonable for them to actually get massive econ gains from picking up slavery, though. We know they're turtling up on the high ground, but that means they've got really poor farmland - it makes perfect sense they'd have picked up a "Harmony" belief if they're primarily hunters and have crashed prey populations before! - and that means they won't currently have that many good places to put slaves to work.

    Plus, they'd still have to raid for those slaves.

    The "acquire slavery" option should probably involve spending a war mission with the prospects of gaining econ, not just giving it outright, and I'm not sure Scholarly Pea would call the potential gains "massive."
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    Usual James said:
    @Umbral The idea for the slavery option was that they'd just finally enslave their undesirables instead of letting them eat all the food and cause unrest anyway
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    CEOKiryuin said:
    Haha, the interludes (either real from SP or in omakes) showing how terrifying we are to others are the best; really makes up for the shit we went through as the lowlanders...

    Also, anyone think that the Beast Folk might have been nomads? or maybe met nomads...we keep hearing about how the Demons are dealing with them all the time, maybe the Beast Folk got their Beasts from them?
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    Umbral said:
    But really, this brings up a point. Scouts are useful. We need some. And the beast folk are on the wrong side of the traitors and too far away; it'll have to be the swamp men. Who's with me for conquering them next?
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    StiffAngel said:
    *looks at Swamp People*

    Eheheheheeheeeeeehheheeee

    Prepare thyself puny primitives. We come bearing the Talon of Thunderbird. You will feed His Great Maw and steal our enemies shit better than those crazy Northerner Magpie Dwelves!

    More seriously hly fckn sht we need some scouts ASAP-U!
    Imagine all those things we could steal from the ST. Yuuuuummmmm.

    "In the name of the Thunderbird!" Please let it be so.
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    doubleplusgood said:
    Hah, love the depiction of me. Like I'd ever not push for more tech advancement.

    Anyway, we definitely should go look into getting some scouts of our own. Our eastern territories have been safe for so long, it makes sense to go and use them to conquer ourselves another tech upgrade. Our awesome megaproject should make it all the easier to force them to become our servants.
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    Umbral said:
    It's a reasonable assumption, CEOKiryuin. The Beast Folk had to get their beasts somewhere, and war carts certainly aren't a hill- or forest-specialized tech. And if they've met nomads, they've been raided by nomads.

    Nomads are dicks.
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    StiffAngel said:
    Burn the entire Steppe, we should.

    They're like Orks. Eeesh. I really want an Exterminatus option...
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    Scholarly Pea said:
    Umbral said:
    First Megaproject
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    *cough*
    But yeah, good omake. Very accurate, not at all arrogant or presumptive. :)
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    AN: ...Formatting is a pain, just fyi D= Many thanks to @BungieONI @Candesce @Umi-san and @notgreat who helped come up with a lot of responses to all three layers of omake :p Also to @DocMatoi for lending usernames. I actually took some real responses from the actual thread to the equivalent update, because AN's snarky response to tech-stealing in the neolithic was too good :p I slightly changed those, and if anyone whose post i used doesn't like it, let me know and i'll change the name <3

    @Academia Nut I hope you enjoy the recursive madness that your quest has spawned; like the second response suggestion was Bungie managing to give a Dead Priest version of himself voting for the Beast Folk results, thats how confusing this is D=
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • Abby Normal said:
    Recursive Negaverse (We Must Go Deeper)



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    AN: ...Formatting is a pain, just fyi D= Many thanks to @BungieONI @Candesce @Umi-san and @notgreat who helped come up with a lot of responses to all three layers of omake :p Also to @DocMatoi for lending usernames. I actually took some real responses from the actual thread to the equivalent update, because AN's snarky response to tech-stealing in the neolithic was too good :p I slightly changed those, and if anyone whose post i used doesn't like it, let me know and i'll change the name <3

    @Academia Nut I hope you enjoy the recursive madness that your quest has spawned; like the second response suggestion was Bungie managing to give a Dead Priest version of himself voting for the Beast Folk results, thats how confusing this is D=
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    REEEEEEEEEECURRRRRRRRRRRRRSION!


     
    ETA50M said:
    I'm positive the Xoh has more Econ then us on average. We are isolated and they are a major trade hub.
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    Also another thing is that what hylas was asking about was more of the comparative "value" of our various civs.

    Basically one of our Econ =/= one of the Xoh's Econ due to manpower and farming tech differences.

    This kind of "valuation" is especially important for Martial comparisons.
     
    ETA50M said:
    I'm positive the Xoh has more Econ then us on average. We are isolated and they are a major trade hub.
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    Trade is Diplomacy, Technology and Art. Economy is warm bodies and food.
    Abby Normal said:
    Recursive Negaverse (We Must Go Deeper)​



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    AN: ...Formatting is a pain, just fyi D= Many thanks to @BungieONI @Candesce @Umi-san and @notgreat who helped come up with a lot of responses to all three layers of omake :p Also to @DocMatoi for lending usernames. I actually took some real responses from the actual thread to the equivalent update, because AN's snarky response to tech-stealing in the neolithic was too good :p I slightly changed those, and if anyone whose post i used doesn't like it, let me know and i'll change the name <3

    @Academia Nut I hope you enjoy the recursive madness that your quest has spawned; like the second response suggestion was Bungie managing to give a Dead Priest version of himself voting for the Beast Folk results, thats how confusing this is D=
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    Note Thunderbird is a post Thunder Horse thing. They used to follow a Great Eagle until the TH rode up their butt, then decided clearly its a BIRD, because silly nomads, horses don't fly and shoot rainbows.
     
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