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Paths of Civilization

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Leaving aside the debates for a second, i just want to be super optimistic, because clearly what's going to happen after this vote is that we'll roll to not take stab hit on refugees, then trigger greater good on Magwyna, putting us at stab 3 with the fluff that the people accepted the disruption of electing Magwyna as heir as for the greater good, helping with that. Then, we'll roll a crit success on new trails, the first time we'll have gotten a crit success on an action with a hero with matching trait active, which AN has said has amazing results. This will trigger a major improvement in road building, opening up a Grand Road Network megaproject and put us on track to integrate the march.

Because clearly we'll manage all these great rolls, and not end up with a terrible disease roll or get attacked by a neighbor or have the march start a crisis...right? <3
 
Abby Normal said:
Leaving aside the debates for a second, i just want to be super optimistic, because clearly what's going to happen after this vote is that we'll roll to not take stab hit on refugees, then trigger greater good on Magwyna, putting us at stab 3 with the fluff that the people accepted the disruption of electing Magwyna as heir as for the greater good, helping with that. Then, we'll roll a crit success on new trails, the first time we'll have gotten a crit success on an action with a hero with matching trait active, which AN has said has amazing results. This will trigger a major improvement in road building, opening up a Grand Road Network megaproject and put us on track to integrate the march.

Because clearly we'll manage all these great rolls, and not end up with a terrible disease roll or get attacked by a neighbor or have the march start a crisis...right? <3
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I'M GIVING YOU MY EVERYTHING!!!

YOU SEE THIS SOUL? IT'S MINE, HERE TAKE IT!!! DO WHAT EVER YOU NEED TO IT TO MAKE SURE THIS HAPPENS!!!


"In the name of the MOON!" *magical girl transformation*
 
BungieONI said:
Also simple logic makes me think that putting a whole bunch of people together in a True City is simply prolonged death for those people while we still have the Whooping Cough.
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While it certainly doesn't help, it doesn't hurt much either. Whooping cough isn't a virus so it's not likely to mutate into a worse form, and most of our immigrants will have been exposed already so they're not in danger of getting sick again (they are sources of it, but we can't quarantine anyway so that doesn't matter)


Doesn't matter now though, no possible way to break that wall of votes.

Also, the mechanics are explicitly part of the narrative, they just represent things in a relatively objective way. Action economy is just a way of saying "we have proof that doing A then B to get C is faster/cheaper than using D to get C."
 
notgreat said:
Also, the mechanics are explicitly part of the narrative, they just represent things in a relatively objective way. Action economy is just a way of saying "we have proof that doing A then B to get C is faster/cheaper than using D to get C."
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But will you give that sometimes doing D is better than A then B, because faster/cheaper is not always the best option?

Also it looks like you are, but not necessarily that you actually are. Appearances and assumptions on meaning you know?
 
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BungieONI said:
But will you give that sometimes doing D is better than A then B, because faster/cheaper is not always the best option?

Also it looks like you are, but not necessarily that you actually aren't. Appearances and assumptions on meaning you know?
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Umm yeah? That's another motivating reason to go for the large wave, it gives us lots of additional effects from Restore Order (confirmed to have extra effects based on admin skill) and festivals (which use both admin and Diplo).
Doing things the more expensive way can be useful, but the default should be the cheapest unless there's a good reason not to. When additional effects apply, it pays to look at the associated narrative.

Stats are resources that we spend on tech to improve our stat generation and hidden stat multipliers.
 
Karugus said:
Uh. I specifically said; 'turn after next, we can go heavy on getting our stability back up'. Maybe a GS+Festival, or if we drop some more we can go all in on dual main restorations and explode back into 3.

As I've said so many times, all I'm asking for is a single turn at 1 before pushing back up.
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Yes, now you did.

I can't recall it ever coming up when people tried persuading others to vote New Trails.

That was what I was talking about.

Basically if you ever want to convince to noy vote for Stability, you should say we will do it soon >.>
Candesce said:
...

If you don't want to waste actions, never vote for higher LoO hits to be covered by Grand Sacrifice. It's a net loss.

Go with a minimal hit, and use a more efficient stability restoration action.
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Math rarely works in persuading the thread.

I fins it more likely for the thread to vote once on Grand Sacrifice than voting two turns on Annual Festival.

Currently I am voting for Omegahugger to encourage others to do the same for the purpose of fracturing the New Trails camp further, but veekie already noticed and pblur is being really uncooperative about it >.>
BungieONI said:
This all just comes from the fact that my mental constitution just does not like arguing. It's too stressful to be fun for me and triggers an UNG! response in me directed at myself. The UNG! is entirely internal angst.
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Devil's Advocate.

I honestly don't know what you expected from me~

I put Umi-san on this list, as he is worse by his own admission >.>

But yes, arguing is fun for me and part of shooting the breeze is arguing for arguement's sake. You can not like it and that is perfectly within your right, but it remains part of it.

S*** slinging is name calling, inflammatory text, and anything done to put down another person. It is the express purpose of belittling another.

That is not okay and is grounds for reporting.
BungieONI said:
Edit: @Hangwind he could also be fucking with us. Kind of a toss up.
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Hangwind had the misfortune of voicing an unpopular opinion. He however aggregates it by never compromising.
 
BungieONI said:
This all just comes from the fact that my mental constitution just does not like arguing. It's too stressful to be fun for me and triggers an UNG! response in me directed at myself. The UNG! is entirely internal angst.
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If it helps to have a label, that's basically a textbook description of someone high in agreeableness on the Big 5! *Hugs*
 
pblur said:
If it helps to have a label, that's basically a textbook description of someone high in agreeableness on the Big 5! *Hugs*
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And I'm a dude so there I go putting that usual stereotype of men being low on the agreeableness scale on it's head. Terry Pratchett would be proud of my inverting the standard.

I wonder how much of our play style is being driven by "It is well known that a vital ingredient of success is not knowing that what you're attempting can't be done" or
"It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it"

I think they both apply, especially when you consider the hypothetical Negaverse.
 
Candesce said:
Quick look at our most recent refugee wave. Keep in mind that these use up economy slots, and we have to burn actions to get more of those.

Compared to LoO, Cosmopolitan reduces all stability costs by .5 stability; given that this discount is independent of the size of the refugee wave, it's obviously an incentive towards taking smaller waves.

"chance of further effects" almost certainly includes both technologies and social disruption; I'm going to neglect it for the rest of this calculation because we can't be sure it's net positive or negative.

Our options, stability for econ:
.5 for 2
1.5 for 4.5
2.5 for 7
3.5 for 9.5
4.5 for 13

Multiplied by 2.5, the cost of stability using main Grand Sacrifice, to bring them into line for action equivalents:
1.25 for 2
3.75 for 4.5
6.25 for 7
8.75 for 9.5
11.25 for 13

We're netting .75 econ for all of these choices but the last. This is leaving out the cost of the econ slots used up; with that counted, with the exception of the True City option we're making less profit the more people we bring in.

And I sincerely doubt True City is pure positive, plus the overcrowding risks.

So: Cosmopolitan and Grand Sacrifice means efficiency is worse the more people we bring in. Not better.

Edit: For the record, without Cosmopolitan, Grand Sacrifice means we take a .5 econ hit for all but the True City option. Grand Sacrifice is just that awful outside of emergencies.
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I've already done that math and disagree. GS is "just that perfect" outside of emergencies because it is, literally and without any possible argument to the contrary, the best choice for raising stability when we're at or above 0 (depending on where RoO can be used).

Plus, once you start taking bigger hits you start getting more likely to get technology and social traits, so basically as you take bigger hits you start having better odds, exactly as I've already said. I consider it to be a net positive, because "social trouble" will arise regardless, and at least this way the trouble arising is more obvious. In other words, taking minimal amounts is playing a conservative no-win; no-loss game. Or possibly worse, because we still have to take in SOME people and gain less Econ from them and are less likely to be able to use the cheaper action option. I simply cannot comprehend why you would think a flat .5 decrease across all slots is somehow a motivation to pick the lowest one; please explain. I also simply cannot understand why you would consider econ slots to be a price - we're merely using up slots sooner rather than later.


With that said, Festival does supply stability and balance out its exorbitant cost with art + social melding, making it a good choice when taking in refugees. But it simply doesn't reward stability enough to be worth it when the main issue is stability. I think that the best approach to refugee intake is taking in a ton of people and then doing RoO and Festival all at once in order to bump up stability, get rid of troublemakers, and balance that out by melding people together. After this point, GS is a better choice because it creates a sense of community through sacrifice and functional, actual equality - rather than the equality you seem to think we have - by getting rid of the economic disparity that is to some degree responsible for the separation of people.
 
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Umi-san said:
I simply cannot comprehend why you would think a flat .5 decrease across all slots is somehow a motivation to pick the lowest one; please explain.
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I dont really want to get involved in the larger argument, but for this part, that's pretty simple. It has more relative effect on the lower slots. That is, 0.5 stab for 2 econ is 4 econ per stability, a better deal (at least on a pure stab-to-econ ratio basis) than 1.5 stab for 4-5 econ, or 2.666-3.333 econ per stab.
 
@Abby Normal Nice. That makes sense.

0.5 for 2 = 4 Econ/stab.
1.5 for 4.5 = 3
2.5 for 7 = 2.8
3.5 for 9.5 = 2.7
4.5 for 13 = 2.89

All of the last 3 float around .25 econ gain per stab when the 2.5 cost of a main GS is applied.

0.5 is the most valuable at 1.5, but least likely to allow for RoO.
1.5 is the least valuable because there's no chance of additional effects, a low chance to allow for RoO, and a diminished overall value from 0.5 (i.e. it's at 0.5).
2.5 and 3.5 have that chance and probably allow for RoO.
4.5 has that chance, True City status, and certainly allows for RoO.

And, of course, there's a possibility that we're harming other nations which is p cool.
 
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Umi-san said:
@Abby Normal Nice. That makes sense.

0.5 for 2 = 4 Econ/stab.
1.5 for 4.5 = 3
2.5 for 7 = 2.8
3.5 for 9.5 = 2.7
4.5 for 13 = 2.89

All of the last 3 float around .25 econ gain per stab when the 2.5 cost of a main GS is applied.

0.5 is the most valuable at 1.5, but least likely to allow for RoO.
1.5 is the least valuable because there's no chance of additional effects, a low chance to allow for RoO, and a diminished overall value from 0.5 (i.e. it's at 0.5).
2.5 and 3.5 have that chance and probably allow for RoO.
4.5 has that chance, True City status, and certainly allows for RoO.

And, of course, there's a possibility that we're harming other nations which is p cool.
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ECON Vampirism!

We shall become Nicylvania!

BLIEEEEEGGH!
 
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The Telephone Game
  • Apocrypha
    • The Telephone Game

    I despise that woman, thought Llwys darkly. The woman in question, Gwygoytha, had embarrassed him thoroughly in the wrestling ring. At first, he had wanted to be kind to her, be gentle so that her weak female body wouldn't break in warrior training. As soon as he had the thought, he could have sworn she looked at him with a strange fire behind her eyes.

    Then, she'd flipped him onto his back and drove her arm into his neck, choking him until he passed out. When he came to, three other men had been knocked down by turns to prove her weakness, instead proving her strength! "So, Warrior Llwys, will you teach me?"

    How could he refuse, when everyone had seen him make the bet!

    ~~~

    Wylyn told the story as it was told to him, to his sons. "So, when the Big Chief Gwygoytha defeated grandfather Llwys, it was the hardest she'd ever fought in her life. They wrestled for quite some time before Llwys finally fell, exhausted, but having gotten Chief Gwygoytha to pant and sweat and rest on her knees. After the fight, she propositioned him for a tumble, so when you are asked, remember that you have the blood of Crow's Disciple in you!"

    ~~~

    Cewlyl shouted down the man who'd called him weak. He was descended of Gwygo, dammit! There would be no quiet apology for the insult dealt to him! He had been taught, by his father's father, of how Gwygo appeared to his ancestor and fought with him. Of how their match lasted many hours before Gwygo's grapples became sensuous and seductive, and she lay with him, leaving the child of the union with his family, the child he was descended of!

    Cewlyl had spirit's blood in him, and he wouldn't stand for being called a weakling!

    ~~~

    Gweddlyn wanted to prove she was strong, so she joined the warriors. Gweddlyn wanted to prove she was smart, so she joined the blackbirds. Gweddlyn wanted to prove many things, since her grandfather had told her that, as a first-born daughter of the family line, the blood of Goya that flowed within her, from a stolen dalliance with a human man, would be quickened. Gweddlyn didn't care what anybody else thought, even if the village shamans said her birth star was poor. She was special.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I'll just leave this here.
     
  • Apocrypha
    • Umi-san said:
    I consider it to be a net positive, because "social trouble" will arise regardless,
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    I'm not willing to assume we get a fixed amount of social trouble per turn, so I'm not willing to agree, here.

    But if we can get a better source of stability than Grand Sacrifice - Restore Harmony would be best, but anything that operates close to a 2 econ/action multiplier rather than Grand Sacrifice's 2.5 - abruptly large refugee waves become awesome, because we get the following in addition to any techs:

    1 for 2, profit 1
    3 for 4.5, profit 1.5
    5 for 7, profit 2
    7 for 9.5, profit 2.5
    9 for 13, profit 4

    Preferably it'd be something we can afford to have provinces doing for us, though, because that's a lot of actions to get our stability back up to par.
     
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    Candesce said:
    I'm not willing to assume we get a fixed amount of social trouble per turn, so I'm not willing to agree, here.

    But if we can get a better source of stability than Grand Sacrifice - Restore Harmony would be best, but anything that operates close to a 2 econ/action multiplier rather than Grand Sacrifice's 2.5 - abruptly large refugee waves become awesome, because we get the following in addition to any techs:

    1 for 2, profit 1
    3 for 4.5, profit 1.5
    5 for 7, profit 2
    7 for 9.5, profit 2.5
    9 for 13, profit 4

    Preferably it'd be something we can afford to have provinces doing for us, though, because that's a lot of actions to get our stability back up to par.
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    I mean, we have RoO rn, it's just that it's unusable when we do a minimalist approach to intake and a safety-first approach to standard stability levels.

    I definitely want Restore Harmony, but don't want to get the Sacred War trait back. Opinion on what kind of Honor trait would get us RH, and how we might get it?
     
    Umi-san said:
    I mean, we have RoO rn, it's just that it's unusable when we do a minimalist approach to intake and a safety-first approach to standard stability levels.

    I definitely want Restore Harmony, but don't want to get the Sacred War trait back. Opinion on what kind of Honor trait would get us RH, and how we might get it?
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    Some kind of Fairness trait?

    That sounds about right, and we already have the stuff for it what with giving back the Xoh. We've always kind of acted with fairness in mind.


    E: I mean thinking about it some Why did Sacred War give Restore Harmony? It gave some kind of support to the warriors, some kind of okay that force could be used to keep the peace. But it seems to have mellowed it out.

    Fairness might give us a tool with a similar usage range to Restore Harmony but... Hmmm.
    Some kind of punishment must be made, no matter who you are? The Law is fair in it's blindness? Seems really advanced though.

    Suggestions on how we could parse a Fairness value together with this?
     
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    Actually Sacred War at this point is...

    Still not okay, our neighbors are too different._.

    Sacred War seems best when you have similar values to your neighbors. It's too easy to trigger otherwise.

    ...though that doesn't seemed to have helped the Lowlands at all
     
    Abby Normal said:
    Leaving aside the debates for a second, i just want to be super optimistic, because clearly what's going to happen after this vote is that we'll roll to not take stab hit on refugees, then trigger greater good on Magwyna, putting us at stab 3 with the fluff that the people accepted the disruption of electing Magwyna as heir as for the greater good, helping with that. Then, we'll roll a crit success on new trails, the first time we'll have gotten a crit success on an action with a hero with matching trait active, which AN has said has amazing results. This will trigger a major improvement in road building, opening up a Grand Road Network megaproject and put us on track to integrate the march.

    Because clearly we'll manage all these great rolls, and not end up with a terrible disease roll or get attacked by a neighbor or have the march start a crisis...right? <3
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    Oh... at least take me to dinner before you start talking dirty like that!
     
    Abby Normal said:
    Leaving aside the debates for a second, i just want to be super optimistic, because clearly what's going to happen after this vote is that we'll roll to not take stab hit on refugees, then trigger greater good on Magwyna, putting us at stab 3 with the fluff that the people accepted the disruption of electing Magwyna as heir as for the greater good, helping with that. Then, we'll roll a crit success on new trails, the first time we'll have gotten a crit success on an action with a hero with matching trait active, which AN has said has amazing results. This will trigger a major improvement in road building, opening up a Grand Road Network megaproject and put us on track to integrate the march.

    Because clearly we'll manage all these great rolls, and not end up with a terrible disease roll or get attacked by a neighbor or have the march start a crisis...right? <3
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    We technically have two chances, the immigration and Magwyna nomination.

    ...Greater Good is my only hope at this point

    Yet we have so little luck with it ._.
     
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