3 needs:
1) Our forestry needs to come back online, even partially. The fuel demands will be rising again now that we discovered concrete(producing industrial amounts for our projects costs enough fuel that concrete production stopped as Rome fell and nobody could pay for the process), and we're eating through our buffer. Yes, Repeated actions are looming. We don't have them yet and once we have those, the forests will still be competing with Roads, Towers and Walls.
2) City Support is very efficient for a policy due to the Ironworks + Marketplace effect. We ideally want our cities feeding themselves so we don't swing so much in Econ, and make them purely profit.
3) Skulduggery needs to come back since we need the Intrigue.
I am hopig for informedness trifecta of "Trade+Diplomacy+Skullduggery", which means we constantly talk to people around us and keep an eye on events around and within us.
I am and I am thinking that driving RA higher and higher (which requires Tolerance, so Palaces) while preaching opposite values is the only real answer.
Which means we need to figure out how and when to build more Temples to defeat their religion via Word of Crow.
Commiting average of 3 Mains without MP Support by next midturn is, in theory, possible...but in practice, it'd sacrifice everything else.
Of course we still need the Canal afterwards, so it's not like we would be turning MP Suppport on for Dam only.
I am hopig for informedness trifecta of "Trade+Diplomacy+Skullduggery", which means we constantly talk to people around us and keep an eye on events around and within us.
edit:
I am and I am thinking that driving RA higher and higher (which requires Tolerance, so Palaces) while preaching opposite values is the only real answer.
Which means we need to figure out how and when to build more Temples to defeat their religion via Word of Crow.
I would actually prefer having double diplomacy to diplomacy plus trade, since we have the ability to do trade missions already but not the ability to establish diplomatic relations beyond just inviting people to the Games.
Plus, from a mechanical standpoint, the diplo would just overflow into wealth anyways.
I would actually prefer having double diplomacy to diplomacy plus trade, since we have the ability to do trade missions already but not the ability to establish diplomatic relations beyond just inviting people to the Games.
Plus, from a mechanical standpoint, the diplo would just overflow into wealth anyways.
Yes, but trade contacts are not diplomatic contacts, so it should, probably, be more diverse in narrative effects. I think. But it's more of a gut feeling than anything - just feels that traders' grapevine can provide us more information than just another diplomatic one.
Yes, but trade contacts are not diplomatic contacts, so it should, probably, be more diverse in narrative effects. I think. But it's more of a gut feeling than anything - just feels that traders' grapevine can provide us more information than just another diplomatic one.
I agree that's it's more diverse, but I feel like having a stronger focus towards diplomatic contacts will be more important, especially in the current era, where diplomacy is basically non existent.
But that's just my personal opinion, and I'm fine with more external information either way.
[X] [Ext] They are an obvious threat to you and your Games partners (Main War Mission)
-[X] [Ext] Change to Offensive Policy
-[X] [Ext] Change to Mass Levy Policy
[X] [Ext] The Storm People could use mercenaries, and you have some
-[X] [Ext] SY: Red Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Dragon Banner
-[X] [Ext] SY: Blood Rain Banner
+10 (Overflow from Mysticism)
-11 (Overflow to Tech)
Total: 27
Grand Bazaar did in fact count as a social MP, so we got reformers boost This means that 1. the Grand Bazaar was a ~24 stat cost megaproject, give or take rounding, and 2. Reformers has now bottomed out at a 1/4th strength refund, where it will stay until/unless we upgrade the legacy or AN decides to buff/nerf it or something.
Prestige 98
+1 (Grand Bazaar)
+[0-4] (Games)
Subotal: [99-103]
<Games = 1>
Total: 99
-_- Our luck on those game rolls really is terrible so bloody close to hitting 100 prestige and hopefully getting a legacy...
7 + 1 (Prophet's Home Temple) = 8
Good to know 100% that the religious actions can in fact affect our RA. Also, confirmation that our RA tolerance is currently 12.
Horseman's Plague
A civilization killing plague, this monstrous new disease is disrupting all capacity to organize a major society, causing the following effects: Disrupted Trade - Trade values halved due to disruptions from plague and strife
L 6 -> 5
Overcap loyalty dissipates quickly, it seems. Also, not listed, but judging from econ income they're able to pay us food taxes now, presumably due to the boundary hills settlements
Red Banner Company (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 3/5, E: 7/10) Dragon Banner (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 4/5, E: 8/10) Blood Rain Banner Company (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 3/5, E: 5/10)
??? Somehow still only at significant despite another main poppies action... Hopefully just AN putting off updating all the trade stuff until next update?
Edit: AN later updated the civ sheet with new trade values, and now we have Dominating in Poppies, and also Leading in Fine Pottery.
Here are the differences: Diff Checker Diff Checker
!!!! Holy shit this is a major major change. Veekie has gone on several rants about how amazing concrete is, and in general knows more than i do about it, but concrete is pretty revolutionary when it comes to building things...including, of course, dams
Capital Palace
A grand center of government, the palace seats the king and all the necessary organs of governance, as well as being aesthetically attractive and imposing, so as to show off the wealth and power of the People. Required capstone project to move beyond Bronze Age models. Grants access to the Governor's Palace extended project.
Annexes (13/17): Grand Hallx3, Shrinex2, Library x2, Storehousex2, Garden, Arsenal x3
Annex Effect: +1 National Library count, -1 Temp Econ damage for all palaces, +1 EE before Valleyhome loses TC status, +1 Safe Martial, +1 Tech Refund/2 palaces, +1 Tech/turn, palaces grant +1 RA tolerance each, +1 Diplo/turn
Interesting selection of actions by our provinces. Obligatory expand econ, of course, but then also a main new settlement gets us some econ, but also some EE, so our provinces are prioritizing the Yeomen quest over reactivating our cities. As is, the extra +4 LTE makes it so we have to burn LTE before we can activate any cities. Glassworks suggests that our industries really need a lot of glass, given our abnormally high use of alchemy and dye work. Hunt troublemakers is very nice, and its amazing that balanced policy can take it This turn it gave us 2 very important warnings, one of which gave us an opportunity to get ahead of a major internal problem and influence our culture the way we want (Read: Temper or remove purity) while having a chance to reduce RA to leave room for more temples.
Also note that we got 1 less secondary action than we should have had; AN said he'd give us an extra action or something next turn to make up for it.
And redshore itself finishes that market off, before using its second progress point on some more bath work. Redhills and Valleyguard, on the other hand, are terrified of the whole "Hard mode nomads are a thing, and we're literally on the two paths from the lowlands to the capital", and start the slow process of walling up. Unfortunately, we should expect the main policies to spend some progress on those walls, at least if/when we dont have quests or priority baths to build :/
Txolla continues to fill up the spirit channel gap, and needs lots of econ...though presumably they don't have our ironworks bonuses, and maybe not even steelblooded, so that expand econ might not even represent much...
"We need a canal to traverse the Great River Cataracts to promote further trade," the Admin Chief said, bringing forth the intentions of the king to the Chamber of the Survey in the Royal Archives.
THE TIME HAS FINALLY COME FOR THE MOST ANCIENT DIRECTIVE OF THE GODS TO BE FULFILLED
(Also, i wonder if "Chamber of the Survey in the Royal Archives" is another case of the People and their super focus on bureaucracy and record keeping being super unusual, or if its actually a relatively normal thing for a classical society to have? Also curious what else we have in the royal archives...)
Not even needing to look at the surveys, the clerk there said, "There are a number of spots in the badlands that could be redone into a series of short canals and pools if there was a stable reservoir above them. Because of seepage at that volume of water, if you want to divert enough water you're going to have to anchor on stone, which means building in the cataracts, which means damming the entire Great River."
Also, interesting that the dam isn't even "we need to build a dam" to the people. Its "we need to build another canal, and to do that we have to build a dam first so i guess we'll do that...but its not like i like you or anything, dam-baka!"
"You've already thought about this," the Admin Chief notes.
"Initiation for the post! Every Chief Surveyor has made the Senior Assistant Surveyors figure out how to go around the cataracts, which involves working out how to dam the entire Great River," the man says cheerfully, going to a shelf filled with parchment scrolls.
XD We've procrastinated so long that the dam is both a big enough problem and a solved enough problem to be a sort of...either entrance exam or final exam, presumably. After all, its a pretty complicated surveying job that the prospect won't have experience with, so you know it'll test skills rather than rote knowledge, while the "answer key" is so in depth that the "grading" is easy. ...And of course, its the sort of test that families with a history of being high ranked surveyors can pass on the 'answer' to ensure that their kids have a better chance of things regardless of their skill... ;-)
Hell, these scrolls are probably almost as good a record of the local geography, and the People's construction/materials knowledge as the actual records on the subjects XD
"There are tablets in the rear that discuss similar practices that suggest this has been going on since before the gods taught man to read and write. Like, the first proposals might have come in the time when the gods dragged their trowel through the earth to make the Valleysnake Canal, such have been the stalled ambitions."
Interesting... I suppose the bonus from the canal is less "the People are capable of great engineering works!" and more "the Gods are capable of great feats and we can do lesser works in their honor and example!"?
"Wow. Actually, now that you mention it, any idea why the Sacred Canal is called that?"
Shrugging, the surveyor said, "The oldest records suggest that the river used to be called the Snake River, so it was probably just named after how it connected things."
The Admin Chief considered this before he said, "Weird. Anyway, I will take efforts that have been assembled to the king so he can approve what he thinks is best."
"We'll want to do a fresh survey of the region as part of all of this, but we can probably begin setting down some preliminary cofferdams during the next dry season to get started on a few pilings," the surveyor said with some confidence.
Its a small and subtle thing, but i think its important to note that despite having likely hundreds of surveys and plans for the project, including probably dozens with our most recent relevant materials/construction advances, the admin chief and surveyor still recognize the importance of not just taking those records for granted. A mix of Philosopher Kings ensuring that "just do what the records had planned" isn't acceptable, while such a cultural legacy of major projects, and an importance placed on punishing even those high up if projects fail because they cut corners, ensures that the People know better than to not double check such a major endeavor.
As it was, not only was the site chosen quickly and expediently, but decisions elsewhere began to pay out for the dam quickly. Guild expansion of dye production mostly just expanded the ancient and traditional cultivation fields along the Redshore coast, but the increased number of stone pilings being made allowed for the expansion of the number of stoneworkers with aquatic expertise, who knew they would have a job after the expansion was done and only a few of them would be needed for maintenance. While the increased dye production was merely useful, the dye-alchemists had something more to play around with, and while those experiments did not pan out, a few of the attempts at using various ashes and residue from the glassworks as mordants produced new forms of mortar instead.
First line is narrative for us rolling well enough to get 2 progress instead of 1.
Synergy between snail cultivation and dam + innovation rolls equals CONCRETE.
Also, some info from veekie who knows a lot about this shit apparently:
-Mordants are used to make dye colors stick better to cloth so they don't fade, allowing you to use a greater variety of dyes since those which might normally wash away too easily can be made colorfast.
-They did their job TOO well so they got stuff that glues ROCK together.
What we know of this recipe:
-It's made from material leftover from glassmaking(which is pretty broad, since we used calcinated bones to make the lime to flux out the detritus to make aqua glass, and then there is the high variety of sand stock).
-It's useful in aquatic constructions somehow, so it's water resistant once set, though it need not necessarily set wet(also we lack the volcanic ash to make that type of concrete).
Which tells me what we have: a Portland Cement variant based concrete, made from fine furnace ash and we're probably adding crushed slag from the iron smelters for strength and corrosion resistance.
It's important because unlike stone or brick constructions, concrete can be properly poured and moulded so as to present no internal flaws, allowing for vastly stronger supporting arches and buttresses(owing to being able to actually determine the true maximum load consistently) for the main structure.
...it's also important because uh...making it requires a lot of fuel to cook the lime, especially from bone rather than limestones(though the ash and slag don't, since we don't use the ash for anything else) if we want to use a lot of it.
Meanwhile, as the guilds were pleased by all the dyes coming in and the new king was making efforts to better connect the core and the lowlands, Redshore's market was expanding from all the trade and raw population coming in. More than just a little expansion though, the squares opened up for merchant stalls soon expanded beyond what the planners envisioned, and tall new buildings filled with storehouses and display fronts surrounded the new markets. A raucous mercantile culture emerged, and the very concept of what a marketplace was began to change.
Megaproject Completed! Grand Bazaar
This overlarge example of a market serves as the cultural archetype of what a market is, forcing all others in the kingdom to step up their game. All markets have their effects increased as if they were one level higher, and can build markets one level higher than city level would normally allow, at double cost. System Note: Level 1 Markets now convert 100% of city Econ input into Wealth, Level 2 Markets additionally convert 25% of Econ input into Culture, and Level 3 Markets will give Merchant Actions.
New megaproject!! Not at all the effect i was expecting, but damn is it good! Just from the redshore market, we already have +1.5 wealth/turn from the project, and now we can get +2 wealth/turn for a 3 progress EP. That is, either 1.5 policy-turns, or a single secondary action if we want to do so manually ans spend stats. Even if we only get them in our three current free cities, it'll be +7 wealth/turn! and as we've seen, it isn't affected by normal disrupted trade like trade dominance is; it takes a plague or the like breaking internal trade to stop its wealth production. It's kind of ridiculous, really. On the other hand, the level 2 (used to be level 3) marketplace seems really weak and only worth building as a stepping stone to level 3 (was level 4) markets? Those are really nice giving us extra actions that presumably work similar to the guild actions we already have, only specifically for things like trade missions and salt gifts...both of which we often would like to take of course
Edit: Also, AN has confirmed that this applies to the city attraction bonuses as well
Choose a Megaproject Bonus
[] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[] [MP] Royal Investment (+1-2 Free Progress to Dam Project)
[] [MP] Expand Market Further (Redshore Level 3 Market 6/18)
[] [MP] Attract More People to City (Redshore Level 2 Block Housing 6/6)
[] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
Kind of surprised a social policy wasn't a choice, given its a social project and the like. Still, some good choices. Vote seems to have pretty much been decided, so not much to discuss, i suppose.
A couple points, though:
-1 AN confirmed that we got 2 progress on the dam, so the royal investment is half of the remaining 2-4 needed progress
-2 Unlike temples, level 3 markets are apparently normally 9 progress, not 12, since doubled cost is 18.
The increased activity from the bazaar also brought increased trouble, but fortunately the mayor had been keeping an eye out for that sort of thing, and had leaned on some external contacts to follow up a few leads
It seemed that while Uvothyn had clipped a number of burgeoning issues with the enclaves in the bud, some of the more radically puritan priests were still causing problems. In particular some of the most extreme adherents were covertly attacking people. The majority of these attacks were on marginalized and vulnerable groups like half-exiles, prostitutes, and anyone suspected of harbouring One God sympathies, but they also occasionally went after petty merchants, who they saw as encouraging greed and sin. That they had a tendency to target those who were involved with foreign trade more than internal trade was duly noted, as well as seeming to go after rumours of impiety among the shipbuilding artisans more often than in other occupations. It was obvious that these puritan radicals felt that outsiders brought disharmony and sin and felt that the People would be fundamentally better off alone and isolated.
they served the purpose of keeping key figures from outside coming to the People and thus keeping the People in the loop about events outside their borders. The Storm People had stumbled in their expansion and were "consolidating", which sounded a bit like they were suppressing rebellious conquered tribes. Freehills had a few years of poor performance in their conquest of the Tin Tribes, before a new general emerged to begin wielding the warriors of the growing 'republic' with devastating adroitness. Trade missions to the Forhuch kept in touch with them, and essentially reassured their terrifyingly competence king that the People just wanted trade.
Precious wonderful outside news, the games are truly great <3
At least the SP are having some teething issues, though AN has said they're on track to become a Great Power within a few generations, so that's something to worry about...
Freehills has a martial hero, while Forhuch's Martial/Diplo hero (who AN said may even be Martial/Diplo/Admin Hero!) is thankfully still convinced we want to trade and that its a good idea to do so.
Born in a tent, the King of the Forhuch had already reclaimed a city and had established a system of courier relays throughout the Horse Mountains to keep in contact with the far flung tribes he was settling in the area while making sure the riders stayed sharp. The Pure before him had cleared out the region, turning it into a place ideal for nomads to settle their herds and flocks, but had also left the mines mostly intact, so with the wealth from the Salt Sea trade and access to the skilled slaves the Storm People provided he was able to rapidly revitalize the militarily significant industries. Remarkably clever, the Forhuch were also experimenting with taking chariot archers and mounting them directly on their horses, and while there were a number of issues from what was reported back, if anyone could take the one off freaks who might have the skill and connection with their animals to do such an absurd thing as fire a bow from the back of a horse, it was the nomads.
Well that's somewhat terrifying. So begins the era of the horse archer...and with their birthplace being a hero born region cleared of rebellious peasants but rich in mineral wealth, and in a great trading position...
The Western Colonies were also... well, perhaps not coming around to the king's point of view, but at least were less enthusiastic about the thought of going independent or joining the Storm People.
The confused issue of Amber Road had been resolved as well, as it had become evident that a combination of pressure from primitive tribes that wanted their iron and fantastical goods without trading for them, and fear over the Horseman's Plague shutting down any interest in trade had lead them to becoming isolated sort of by accident. With a resumption of trade enough trips were being made that they realized that the world was not ending and they could get back to business.
And then there were the Harmurri, who on their own weren't a problem. They were, however, getting rather freaked out by the fact that the Highlanders had come boiling out of their hills and had begun gobbling down minor tribes the Harmurri had put in place as a tripwire in case of aggression by the Highlanders or People.
Khemetri colonies had apparently been the first course, and the lowland minors a palate cleanser, because it seemed that their next target was the Harmurri. While not directly threatening the Harmurri or People yet, the unease was obvious... and the Highlanders had been sending out agents to contact the One God followers within the People's territory to attempt to get them to 'rise up against their heathen oppressors'.
Khemetri colonies, huh...i think that means between them and freehills we're cut off from the south now? Also, HK continues to love intrigue even as a theocracy it seems
While some of the One God followers had expressed interest, the same agents that had caught onto the puritan priests had also caught onto these foreign agents, and the memory of Uvothyn was still fresh and many of those affected by his efforts were of the opinion that their single God was a universal deity rather than the god of the Highlanders and thus saw no theological problems with siding with the People rather than the Highlanders. This loyalty was assuredly contingent on the kings continuing to protect them and not interfere with their strange worship and rituals, but still, the early warning either way was of significant use.
Yay, being accepting, and our syncretic beliefs help! ...Honestly probably not as much as if we went full purity, but still, hopefully ripping out the purists will get our local One God followers fully supportive?
Internal Trouble
[] [Int] Expel the One God followers before they can betray you (-2 Intrigue, +1 Stability, reduces potential enemy Intrigue actions, ???)
[] [Int] Ignore the situation (???)
[] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
External Trouble
[] [Ext] The Storm People could use mercenaries, and you have some
-[] [Ext] SY: Red Banner
-[] [Ext] SY: Dragon Banner
-[] [Ext] SY: Blood Rain Banner
[] [Ext] Freehills could use mercenaries, and you have some
-[] [Ext] FH: Red Banner
-[] [Ext] FH: Dragon Banner
-[] [Ext] FH: Blood Rain Banner
[] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[] [Ext] They are an obvious threat to you and your Games partners (Main War Mission)
-[] [Ext] Change to Offensive Policy
-[] [Ext] Change to Mass Levy Policy
[] [Ext] Keep sending treasure to the Forhuch (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[] [Ext] Stay home, farm (Main Expand Econ)
Annoying that sending mercs takes up the external action... Though at the same time, keeping them home to recover loyalty is pretty important too, so...
React
[] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[] [React] Improve Navy (Main More Warships)
[] [React] Improve Horse Valley Temple (2xSec Temple Actions)
[] [React] Improve Soil Quality (Main Black Soil)
[] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[] [React] Farm (Main Expand Econ, cannot take with switching to Mass Levy)
Note that with the current winning vote, we'll end up at 27 econ and 10 EE, thanks to 5 overflow into wealth with only 4 econ refund, so we'll reactivate valleyhome and blackmouth.
Patricians (6 {12}) - Power: Add or subtract their faction power from factions they are supporting/opposing. Objective: Build 1/4 Great Hall Annexes within 2 turns Reward: Government upgrade
Traders (2) - Power: Add or subtract faction power modifier to all innovation rolls. Objective: Have Naval power 3 or above within 1 turns. Success: +1 Naval [1/2]
Priests (2)- Power: Adds faction power to RA. Objective: Have a new level 2 temple somewhere within 1 turns. Success: +1 RA tolerance. Failure: -1 Stability
New quest! New social value slot would be amazing...but more free cities could be worrying :/ with luck we can manage it though; preferably we'll be able to get lower valleyhome active and have that be one of them, since its one of the safest to free. Otherwise...maybe blackmouth if the dam unlocks block housing for valleyhome as expected?
True Cities
[0/5 City Candidates, 3 Free Cities, 12 City Limit]
[Limit is (#Provinces + #LandedNonFreeCitySubordinates)/2]
[0 Non-Supported True Cites : -0 High Cent Tolerance]
[Cities activate when EE is at or below Threshold/2]
-Valleyhome [Capital, Palace, Aqueduct, Baths, Market {x2}, Sig. Walls] (21 EE Threshold)
-Blackmouth [Aqueduct, Baths, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls] (21 EE Threshold)
-Sacred Forest [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls] (19 EE Threshold)
-Stallion Pen [Aqueduct, Mass. Walls] (15 EE Threshold)
-Lower Valleyhome [Aqueduct] (9 EE Threshold)
-Valleyhome [Capital, Palace, Aqueduct, Baths, Market {x2}, Sig. Walls] (21 EE Threshold)
[20 (Base) + 7 (Infrastructure) - 6 (No Block Housing) = 21]
-Blackmouth [Aqueduct, Baths, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (21 EE Threshold)
[21 (Inherit) - 4 (Penalty) + 4 (Infrastructure) = 21]
-Sacred Forest [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls] (19 EE Threshold)
[21 (Inherit) - 5 (Penalty) + 3 (Infrastructure) = 19]
-Greenshore - Capital [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Greenshore - Unknown City [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Western Wall - Capital [Aqueduct, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Heaven's Hawk - Phygriftwyn [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
Libraries:
[Total effect: 3 Mysticism Refund]
-Sacred Forest (Temple, Megaproject, +1 Refund by itself)
-Valleyhome (True City)
-Valleyhome (Palace Annex x2 = 1 National Library)
-Stallion Pen (Temple)
-Redshore (True City) -Amber Road (Temple) (In Subordinate)
Temples
[4 Total Temple Levels, 1 Natural Wonder]:
-Sacred Forest in Sacred Shore (Lv 2)
-Dragon Graveyard in Stallion Province (Lv 2 + Natural Wonder)
-Horse Valley in Stonepen (Lv 1 + Lv 1 Observatory) -Amber Road (Lv 1) (Subordinate)
Salt/Gold Production
[Total Effect: +3.5 Wealth/turn]
-Heaven's Hawk (Lv 1 Salt Mine) (In Subordinate, Applies to Core Anyway) [+0.5]
-Heaven's Hawk (Gold Mine) (In Subordinate, Applies to Core Anyway) [+0.5]
Ironworks
[Total Level Count: 3]
[Effect on Expand Econ Secondary: +2 Econ, -2 EE, -2 Tech]
[Effect on City Support/Agriculture Passive Policies: +2 Econ, -2 EE, -1 Tech]
-Redhills (Megaproject) [Functions as Lv 1 for total Ironwork level count]
-Redshore (Lv 2)
Governor's Palace:
[All numbers are totals]
[-1 Min Cent Tolerance, -2 Max Cent Tolerance, +0 True City Admin Support]
[+2 Max Interconnectivity, +2 Temp Econ Damage Resistance]
[+2 Max Safe Martial, +2 RA Tolerance]
[+1.5 Tech Refund, including main Palace]
-Blackmouth
-Sacred Shore
-Western Wall (In Subordinate)
-Greenshore (In Subordinate) [In Progress 6/9]
Interconnectivity (21/55)
[Can gain Cent from roads up to half of max IC value (27/55), any past that will be banked]
[+7 Max Centralization Tolerance (IC/3, round down). 0 Banked Centralization]
[Max IC Formula: 2 + 3*Full_Provinces + Governor's_Palaces]
Provinces
[17 Full Provinces - 3 Extra Sec King Actions, 6 Sec Province Actions, 2 Main + 1 Sec Guild Actions]
[Next Action increases: +1 Sec Guild Action at 18 Provinces | +1 Sec Province Action at 19 Provinces | No Gain at 20 Provinces]
[New King Actions at every (9+4n) Province]
[New Province Actions at every (11+4n) Province]
[New Guild Actions at every (3n) Province]
[In Progress Provinces]
-Northern Blackriver [2/6]
[Subordinate Provinces]
<Just ignore this section for now, it's out of date, was only ever my (Abby Normal) guesses, and with the plague and unknown subordinate status, is likely even more wrong than I know>
-Western Wall - 2-3? Provinces (0? Ready to Integrate)
-Greenshore - 3-4? Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Heaven's Hawk - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [March]
-Txolla - 3-4? Provinces (2? Ready to Integrate)
-Tinriver - 2-3? Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Thunder Horse - 3-4? Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Amber Road - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Immature Trading Post, cannot expand]
Stat Caps
[Base Cap - 27]
[Base is 10 + #Provinces]
[Wealth Cap - 24]
-Base Value (+10)
-17 Provinces (+17)
-5 Guild Faction Power (+2.5)
-10 RA Mylathadysm (-5)
[Safe Martial Limit - 37 {39}]
[Number in {} is safe "non-primary" martial, which refers to the extra martial we gain from econ, listed in {} on the civ sheet]
-Base Value (+10)
-17 Provinces (+17)
-2 Governor's Palaces (+2)
-Palace Arsenal Annexes (+1)
-Iron Age Census (+2)
-International Games (+5)
-Gymnasiums {+2}
Centralization Tolerances:
[Note: Being at a tolerance cap triggers penalties]
[Low Tolerance: - 2]
-Government Base "Neutral" (0)
-Legacies (-1)
-2 Governor's Palaces (-1) [-0.5 per GP]
[High Tolerance: 11]
-Government Base "High" (7)
-21 Interconnectivity (+7) [+1 per 3 IC]
-Legacies (+2)
-17 Provinces (-3) [-1 per 2 provinces over 12]
-0 Unsupported True Cities (-0) [-1 per Unsupported City. Free Cities and Capital are supported. Governor's Palaces can support 1 city per 3 GPs.]
-2 Governor's Palaces (-2) [-1 per GP]
Refunds
[All Refunds are limited on a per action basis]
[Econ Refund - 4]
[Refunds spent Econ as EE. Gained from True/Free Cities]
[Mysticism - 3]
[Refunds spent Mysticism at end of turn. Gained from Libraries]
-Library Megaproject (+1)
-4 Libraries (+2)
Miscellaneous
-2 Secondary Gymnasium: +4 to Games Rolls, +2 Safe Non-Primary Martial
-Annex Limit: 13/17[2 (Base) + 8.5 {8} (#Provinces/2) + 7 (#LandedNonFCSubordinates)]
-Current Reformers Legacy Strength: 1/3 Refund
-Temp Econ Damage Resistance: 10 [-1 (Gov Base) + 2 (Gov + 7 Cent) + 1 (Storehouse Annex) + 2 (2 Governor's Palaces) + 1 (Iron Age Census) + 5 (Mylathadysm + 10 RA)]
-RA Tolerance: 12 as of <Iron Age Eye of the Storm
-Updated free city infrastructure
-Added in progress colossal walls
-Fixed Action section typos
-Added Market Section
-Updated Wealth Cap
-Updated Annex Limit
-Updated TED Resistance
-Updated RA Tolerance
-Wealth cap should be 24, not 22
-Secondary Martial should be 37, not 35: 7 (Primary Martial) + 8 (24 Econ) + 20 (Mercenaries) + 2 (Yeomen Faction Power) = 37
-Games MP listing on civ sheet still says "Western Ymaryn", not Storm People
-Either the diplo income is wrong, or something else is wrong; 1 (King of the Hill) + 3 (3 Games players) + 1 (Palace Great Halls) = 5. If its 6, then presumably Amber Road is mature, and that should be listed on its section, or i suppose maybe somehow we have an extra games player and that should be listed?
-Gold/Salt income should be 3.5 now that amber road is active again, not 3.
-1 Has our poppy trade strength really not changed at all, even with another main dedicated to it?
Answer: AN updated the trade sheet and we are dominating in poppies, even.
-2 How does the level 2 market bonus round? Does it combine with other decimal bonuses like wealth income? Because if so we should have 5 culture income, not 4. 3 (Free cities) + 1.5 (3 TC + Games) + 0.75 (Redhills Market) = 4.25.
Answer: It combines like with the wealth income, since AN updated our culture income to 5.
-3 Can our policies build great hall annexes for us, and are they likely to do so if we dont build them ourselves?
-4 Does the MP bonus loyalty apply to merc companies as well?
-5 What does our civ looks like in terms of religious centers and the like? Like...is there still a big divide between the sacred forest and dragon's graveyard temples? What about the other temples/holy sites? Is sacred forest still the dominant "power" in that regard? How entrenched is mylathadism?
-6 Do our vassals benefit from steelblooded? I assume they wouldn't get the ironworks bonuses, but not sure on the legacies...
-7 How unique is stuff like the Chamber of the Survey? Is that another "The People are weird" thing, or is it relatively normal? Either way, are there any (other) uniquely Ymaryn sections of the palace/government?
-Not actually a question, just a reminder to both of us that you said that since we got one less province action this turn than we were supposed to, that next turn we'd get an extra action or something.
Also, just as a headsup, i finally went back and edited in the answers to last A&D post's questions, so if you either missed AN answering them, or just missed the A&D post completely, here it is:
-1 What exactly were the enclaves doing wrong farming wise?
Answer: "Lots of little things. It was stuff like improper trash disposal so they weren't really generating Black Soil the way they should, not leaving fields fallow correctly, ploughing too early in the season, not planting soil stabilizing species around irrigation ditches, not shoring up irrigation ditches properly, etc., etc. Basically a hundred little to moderate things, plus not properly giving offerings and prayers to the spirits."
-2 Are the Storm People going to the Games? Either way, Western Ymaryn is still listed on the megaprojects listing
Answer: "Yes, will correct now that you have their name."
-3 Do the Storm People still have PiA?
Answer: "Downgraded, but still Econ drainers." (In other posts, he specified that they have "Cosmopolitan tolerance" a branch off of Cosmopolitan acceptance, with more focus on "must integrate immediately. Likely has same strength as CA for stab reduction, though, with "first hit in turn has chance of not applying".
-4 Since there was some debate on it earlier, is it north-south or east-west, and what exactly would the boundary passage do for us? Would it improve travel between the core and our eastern holdings?
Answer: "The boundary passage offers increased strategic mobility against the steppes or someone pushing up from the south. You could mass your logistics on one side of the boundary hills and then push through from a direction other than the obvious natural passes. It would also improve connectivity and trade."
-5 Should we have a march target above the provinces we integrated from teh western wall? I'd thought you said we would have one, but i might be misremembering?
Answer: "That's probably correct. If I don't include it next time, ping me again." (Have reminder for myself in my sticky note i keep for A&D reminders )
-6 When the traders ability says it lets them add or subtract from innovation rolls, is that just that if their power is negative we get a malus, or can they suppress innovations they don't like? If so, what kind of thing would they suppress? I get the guilds suppressing competing tech, but wouldn't the traders want to have tech that outcompetes existing stuff, to get one over on other traders?
Answer: "After rolling out this turn, I am adjusting it slightly, but basically if you cater to the traders they will add their faction power modifier to innovation rolls, where if you suppress them it will tank your innovation. Basically I'm sort of comparing pre-modern Western European and Islamic merchants and Sino-Sphere merchants. The former were more respected in their societies, and a lot of major technological innovations were fueled by demands for trade and seafaring and the ability to protect trade (the merchants were also huge dicks), where in China and related countries they were more looked down upon, and there was a distinct divergence. How these societies treated their merchant classes is obviously not the whole story, but it's a bit of a finger on the scales of society either way."
-7 Is it intentional that the trelli are still on teh trade sheet, albeit crossed out, since you've already removed the Mountain Horse?
Answer: "Mistake/IC out of date info, will redo after the next update as trade begins to resume"
3 needs:
1) Our forestry needs to come back online, even partially. The fuel demands will be rising again now that we discovered concrete(producing industrial amounts for our projects costs enough fuel that concrete production stopped as Rome fell and nobody could pay for the process), and we're eating through our buffer. Yes, Repeated actions are looming. We don't have them yet and once we have those, the forests will still be competing with Roads, Towers and Walls.
2) City Support is very efficient for a policy due to the Ironworks + Marketplace effect. We ideally want our cities feeding themselves so we don't swing so much in Econ, and make them purely profit.
3) Skulduggery needs to
Doesn't HK have some lowland territory along the Great River? I'm fairly sure they couldn't fortify that area and odds are that it's their breadbasket.
So for the upcoming system revamp, not only will you have active policies but a 'King's agenda' (term subject to change). This is essentially a freely set Active Policy that will inform the factions what the king might like them to do. The action taken by the highest ranked faction that conforms to this agenda will be doubled as with the active policy. I am also toying with the idea of the King's agenda helping to even out faction strengths, with the lowest powered faction to conform to the king's agenda taking faction power from the highest ranked faction not to conform to the agenda, or something like that. I think I will ultimately also cut faction powers in about a quarter (half for finer granularity, and half again when I drop the turn lengths from 20ish years to 10ish years).
So what we are probably looking at is something like this (for your current set-up and economy):
4 player controlled secondary actions + 1 per non-Free True City or something like that (player controlled actions are actually easier to vary from turn to turn than passives, so I think something like this will work better)
1 Province Action per 2 provinces + 1 per Governor's Palace (upgraded, maybe)
1 Passive Policy per provinces + 1 per Free City
Individual factions will receive actions for various things (probably something like Guilds get 1 per Free City, Traders get them for high level Markets, Priests for high level temples, stuff like that)
For Provincial Actions and Passive Policies half will go to the players/king/zeitgeist and half will go to the factions. Faction controlled passive policies will tend to be mostly stable, but they can freely vary them from turn to turn. Decision making will then use the following rules:
1.) Factions have gain control over an action based on their current faction strength, going from high power to low power and then cycling back around
2.) In the case of a tie, the higher class faction goes first
3.) If a faction has access to an action from another source, they are demoted down the list once for each extra action they have.
4.) If a faction has negative power, they lose a pick from the first cycle
5.) Factions with 10 or greater power get an extra cycle for each full 10 points of power they have
To give you an idea how this would work, let's look at current conditions. With 17 Provinces, 3 Free Cities, and 2 Governor's Palaces there would be 8 Provincial Actions and 20 Passive Policies. Current factions are:
So there are 4 faction controlled actions, plus the Guilds have 3 actions from the Free Cities. So the ordering would go:
Patricians x2
Urban Poor x1
Three-way tie between Traders, Yeomen, and Priests -> Priests are highest class so they win out and get the last action
Guilds would go before the Urban Poor, but they have 3 Guild actions so they get bumped down on the list three times
Let's now suppose that the King's Agenda has been set to Infrastructure. The Patricians decide that they want more ponies and spend their actions recruiting Spiritbonded and Expanding Econ to pay for it, and the Urban Poor call for more entertainment and build theaters. The priests on the other hand decide to support the king and use their action to build roads. The strength of the Build Roads option is doubled from a Sec to a Main, and the priests gain 1 faction power at the expense of the Patricians.
For the passive policies, of which the factions have access to 10, it would go:
Patricians x2
Guilds x1
Urban Poor x1
Priests x1
Traders x1
Yeomen x1
Patricians x1
Guilds x1
Urban Poor x1
Here because the Guilds don't have their own exclusive Passive Policies, they remain at their normal position on the list. For the most part the factions will only consider changing around about half their Passive policies each turn.
Now, let's say that the Patricians decide that they don't like the Urban Poor, and use their ability to suppress them. The order then becomes:
Patricians x1
Priests x1
Traders x1
Yeomen x1
If there were five actions, the next one on the list would be the Guilds, who have been bumped down from second to fifth place by their Guild actions. Because they are negative, it would take six more actions before the Urban Poor got their turn, because the negative knocks them out of the first cycle. For the Passive Policies, the ordering would go.
Now, for Repeated Actions, there are two options. Either the players can commit their own actions to Repeated Actions, in which case they are doubled in strength, or they can assign faction specific actions to be repeated, which also doubles them, and since faction specific actions are natively at Main strength, this makes them a Double Main. To compensate for this power, when a faction power is being used like this the faction gains 1 power/turn.
Faction specific powers can also be taken over by the players, reducing them from Main to Sec strength while under direct control, and the players gain no further spread of what those actions can be used for. Since player control is partially the king, partially the civilization zeitgeist, this close control also can increase faction power as they are more closely tied with the actions of the people. If more than a third of faction specific actions are controlled by the players, then that faction gains 1 power/turn.
As now, factions will be able to spend power to hijack player actions to get results more to their liking. There are three uses for this hijacking:
1.) The players want to do something they object to/don't want to do something they want to do
2.) They have enough power to force an issue, but other factions are dominating the current set of province actions and so they won't get a turn
3.) They want to do something normally only reserved for the king
This last one will be the most contentious, but this represents factions burning influence to get something. The most obvious one is war, but factions can also burn power to transform their province controlled actions into ones that they normally can't use, which usually involves things that impact stability or raise Martial score. Less annoyingly for the players they can also burn power to gain access to actions outside of a faction specific list (so the Guilds say want to Study Metal they can burn some power to call in connections and interface directly with instruments of the kingdom that normally go through the king). The more actions a faction dominates in a turn, the larger the cost, and doing things they can't normally do has a surcharge that increases for the degree of disruption. War will still have a huge surcharge.
Anyway, these are my thoughts on where things will go in the future.
I like what you are proposing on the first blush. Need to think about it more though. Especially the theoretical number of the Passive policies and the stability of that number.
I like what you are proposing on the first blush. Need to think about it more though. Especially the theoretical number of the Passive policies and the stability of that number.
First reaction: damn son, that is a lot of passives. Plus a whole lot of incentive for cities to be a thing. Hopefully we can keep the Disease Roll bonus from Purity going forward, even if we evolve it to something less damaging.
Overall, I like what I'm seeing in the system. In particular, I like the idea of King's Agenda, which gives us more ways to influence faction and province actions without Assuming Direct Control.
Also, I will fight anyone who doesn't want cities now. Come at me, bro.
*Has flashbacks to finishing the A&D post andrealizing it was almost 1* I feel you <3
I'll cover more in the morning, but some things that popped out as i read it:
I think I will ultimately also cut faction powers in about a quarter (half for finer granularity, and half again when I drop the turn lengths from 20ish years to 10ish years).
4 player controlled secondary actions + 1 per non-Free True City or something like that (player controlled actions are actually easier to vary from turn to turn than passives, so I think something like this will work better)
Individual factions will receive actions for various things (probably something like Guilds get 1 per Free City, Traders get them for high level Markets, Priests for high level temples, stuff like that)
Governor's Palaces might actually make sense to give the patricians actions, instead of province actions, come to think of it... though i suppose the GP might be less Patrician controlled than i'm thinking?
f there were five actions, the next one on the list would be the Guilds, who have been bumped down from second to fifth place by their Guild actions. Because they are negative, it would take six more actions before the Urban Poor got their turn, because the negative knocks them out of the first cycle. For the Passive Policies, the ordering would go.
Will there be any "vents" for faction power/strength (on that note, as part of the rework, i suggest you rename the unique faction powers to faction abilities, and keep either strength or power for the numerical status)? Or oh, i guess thats why the faction power needs to be quartered due to turn count...
3.) They want to do something normally only reserved for the king
This last one will be the most contentious, but this represents factions burning influence to get something. The most obvious one is war, but factions can also burn power to transform their province controlled actions into ones that they normally can't use, which usually involves things that impact stability or raise Martial score. Less annoyingly for the players they can also burn power to gain access to actions outside of a faction specific list (so the Guilds say want to Study Metal they can burn some power to call in connections and interface directly with instruments of the kingdom that normally go through the king). The more actions a faction dominates in a turn, the larger the cost, and doing things they can't normally do has a surcharge that increases for the degree of disruption. War will still have a huge surcharge.
Fingers crossed that this includes distributing land
Overall seems pretty cool though again i am tired and so not covering things too in depth
Also, here are the diffs for anyone wondering. Diff Checker Diff Checker
We are now leading in Fine Pottery, and dominating Poppies, and have all our competitors updated, with a number of itallics showing people threatening our dominance.
(incidentally @Academia Nut while they're all pretty minor until at least the next main update and you (and i) should focus on sleep first, you didn't update teh salt/gold income, the halved value of the luxuries, the overall wealth income, the wealth cap, or the secondary military value)
Edit: Also, in your explanation of the new system, i just realized you either meant to say we got 1 policy per province + 1 per free city, or that right now we'd have 10 policies. You said 2 per province, and 20 policies, and one of those has to be wrong because those don't fit
High Class - Patricians & Priests
Middle Class - Traders, Guild & Yeomen
Low Class - Urban Poor
Imbalance of faction powers between categories like urban vs rural or on a specific line could both upset the balance of our society. Honestly, I'm not sure even a single faction can be left significantly below the rest, and bringing them all up at once increases highjacks and whatnot in addition to stuff like the trader and patrician faction powers wreaking havoc. Repeating faction actions will need to be mostly for adjustment of a faction's strength along with specific needs rather than a set & forget thing.
Currently, I'm inclined to do Yeomen and Traders for 4 turns, depending on their action sets.
It might have been last week? There was a discussion between...i think @Sivantic and someone else over the river names and how the river that redshore is on was once called the snake river and now is called the Snycruv? Or maybe it was the other river, the tiny one that our first holy site is on, that was the snake and now is something else? I can't actually remember
