Only for a while, and were we to fully switch to the kilns ignoring planting new forests for hundreds of years, I fully expect us to flat out lose the necessary skills and lose any chances to improve our terraforming abilities.
Only for a very long time you mean? With 34 actual forests and 36 units of utilization, we have room for another 32 points of Kiln reduction. Our libraries and Sacred Forest protect us from lost knowledge, and I never said anything about going 5 turns without planting forests - I give very low odds to us not doing any government reform in the next 2-5 turns and I would very much like to do a repeated or invested action for forests.
Besides, if you want to improve terraforming abilities, you need to push for manual Expand Forests or Black Soil, not a forestry passive policy. Or else push for Valleyhome and Redshore to be higher level cities so we can sustain them with higher resting EE and thereby afford terraform if it comes up during a Golden Age or whatever other event.
No, but he didn't exactly present me an argument about forestry's narrative effects, he only talked about keeping up with demand, which is addressed fully by Kilns.
And if you want narrative effects, then I think we should be doing the manual action for the innovation rolls, particularly with some synergistic action possibilities like black soil, study health, or expand econ.
1. Does overflow run on a 1:1 point basis? That is, if we have 30/27 of stat A and stat A overflows to B, we get +3 stat B, right?
2. Overflow first goes Econ -> Wealth -> Diplo -> Culture -> Mystic -> Tech, then reverses until it hits Martial. Is that correct?
Under informational threadmarks, there's one called 'current overflow chart' that shows how overflow works. Black arrows first then red arrows loop back around if the black arrow path is full.
I wonder if we're still going by the rule that other civilizations are also run by power gamers. If so, then what are some of the civilizations we haven't seen doing? Is there a research-focused civilization that's even more bullshit than we are? Are the American players trying to make sure that they can fuck the Old World up with just as many diseases as we give to them? Are the Australian players trying to become immune to poison?
No, but he didn't exactly present me an argument about forestry's narrative effects, he only talked about keeping up with demand, which is addressed fully by Kilns.
And if you want narrative effects, then I think we should be doing the manual action for the innovation rolls, particularly with some synergistic action possibilities like black soil, study health, or expand econ.
Under informational threadmarks, there's one called 'current overflow chart' that shows how overflow works. Black arrows first then red arrows loop back around if the black arrow path is full.
If this is right, in the first round of overflow, Mysticism doesn't overflow to anything, which is understandable if a little weird, and in the second round, Culture overflows to both Diplo and Tech, which has me baffled on how that's supposed to work. Does it spill over to one and then the other, or are the points split?
It's almost like certain actions carry more than their presented mechanical effect, and avoiding them because they are inefficient leads to you failing to uncover important mechanics because you see local optima.
21 + 1 (PG Refund) + 3 (IS Refund) + 2 (PP Refund) - 3 (Plant Poppies) = 24
Note that IS gives full 3 refund because its a Transfer, while Plant poppies only refunds 2 because of rural plague.
Wealth 8 -> 4
8 + 7 (Plant Poppies) - 8 (Salt Gift) - 3 (Influence Subordinates) = 4
Thankfully, we had an admin hero to make sure order of operations didn't matter here. Still, we dropped so low on wealth that we triggered Guild Mercantiles downside, and risk a stab hit.
27 - 6 (Reconcile) - 3 ( Influence Subordinate) - 3 (Proclaim Glory) = 15 + 1 (Salt Gift [1+]) = 16
Alas, min roll on salt gift for culture
Mysticism 27 (+8) -> 25 (+9)
27 + 8 (Pending) - 4 (Reconcile) - 4 (Additional Reconcile) - 3 (Influence Subordinate) = 24 + 1 (Salt Gift [1+]) = 25 + (+3) (R Refund) + (+3) (AR Refund) +(+3) (IS Refund) = 25 (+9)
Alas, also min roll for mysticism from salt gift. Also actually ran into 2 things that cost more than 3 mysticism an action, which is rare.
Tech 23 (+8) -> 24 (+2)
23 + 8 (Pending) - 4 (Additional Reconcile) - 3(Influence Subordinate) = 24 + (+1) (AR Refund) + (+1) (IS Refund) = 24 (+2)
Really need that extra tech refund...
Prestige 94 -> 98
94 + 4 (Salt Gift) = 98
Well damn, we must have rolled really well on the prestige portion of the salt gift, since we got 4 whole prestige out of it... That or maybe we got some prestige from dealing with the vassal danger and/or from surviving the plague and remeeting our neighbors? But probably all from the salt gift.
9 - 2 (Personal Stewards of Nature) = 7
Making some more room between our Cent and our max cent tolerance (Currently 11 iirc), thankfully.
RA 7 {15} -> 7 {9}
Patricians stopped supporting the priests, so the priests only have 2 power to add to RA. 9 RA is white, meaning we have at least 12 as our RA limit. Combined with earlier knowledge, that means our RA Tolerance is currently exactly 12.
Horseman's Plague
A civilization killing plague, this monstrous new disease is disrupting all capacity to organize a major society, causing the following effects: Disrupted Trade - Trade values halved due to disruptions from plague and strife Rural Plague - Bizarrely the rural areas are worse off than the urban areas, so the demographic flow is not working as normal, with fields being abandoned. EE refunds for cities halved
Halted External Trade downgrades to Disrupted Trade, giving us back half our trade wealth income and (while not mentioned) half our diplo income.
Rural plague unfortunately remains, and it'll end up costing us a few points of LTE next turn (I should know, i just did the stat calcs for the next update before working on this )
Alas, our extra plant poppies weren't enough to boost us up to leading status :/ Given how many times people asked AN about it, i have to assume that means either we were only barely at significant, or the khemetri just started expanding their own use, or we've been using a lot more internally, or something?
Western Wall (Colony) - Expands to produce new provinces and find new resources, and can take be brought into wars to the north and west (L: 3/5, D: 1/5)
Huh...so we have some contact with amber road i guess? Enough to have a vague idea of their stats, which are interesting. They were at 5/5 and 4/4, so they didn't lose loyalty but did lose 2 dependency after having to survive alone. However, it apparently wasn't enough to count as a support for gold and/or salt
Build Chariots - The vehicle of the elite, chariots are the most effective way of waging war the People know.
*S: -1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +3 Martial, +1 Culture
*M: -2 Econ, -5 Wealth, +7 Martial, +2 Culture, +1 Prestige
Expand Economy - Encourage the growth of food producing activities such as farming, pastures, or fishing, depending on where focus is placed
*S: +6 Econ, -2 Tech, -6 Econ Expansion, potential additional effects
Found Colony - When a province gets too distant, sometimes it is best to grant it additional autonomy so that they can get down to the business of working the land and gathering resources without needing to talk to the king about every little thing. Current Target: Spirit Channel
*S: -1 Econ, 4 Econ Transfer, -2 Martial, founds colony to produce raw resources
Found March - Sometimes you need an extra buffer between you and hostile powers, or a place to stash excess warriors. Current Target: Spirit Channel
*S: -5 Martial, 2 Econ transfer, founds march to take independent martial actions
New Settlement - There are a few new sites that could have new settlements placed on them: northern Blackriver (+3, moderate mineral, 0/6 province), internal reorg (+3, 4/10 places available)
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Econ and Mysticism end of turn, increases number Econ Expansion depending on environment, +1 Province progress
* M: +1 Econ and Mysticism, increases Econ Expansion, +2 Province progress
Marketplace - A more significant section than what is typically found in most settlements, these sorts of markets are meant to service massive urban populations. Level 1 transforms half of the Econ spent on a True or Free City into Wealth income. Level 2 increases this to 100% of the spent Econ. Each level increases City attraction by 1. Each {S} costs 3 Wealth and 3 Culture for 3 progress. Redshore (0/6), Redhills (0/3), Valleyhome (0/3), Sacred Forest (0/3), Blackmouth (0/3), Stallionpen (0/3), Valleyguard (0/3)
Unfortunately, confirmation that our annex limit will go down, and AN's previous statements on the subject likely just referred to not having any issue if we would go from, say, 16/16 to 16/14.
Boundary Passage - The Boundary Hills are rough terrain with few wells or springs, making them almost impossible to pass, but if one were to cut through the rock to install tunnels and staircases, and build some bridges, this would provide an easy but easily controllable and defensible route between the steppes and lowlands (5-8? action commitment, -2 Econ per action)
And now that we have the Boundary Hills province, we have a new megaproject!
Also, aside from a lot of minor errors (out of date numbers on progress, suppress faction still saying -1 stab instead of -2), the Build Academy action/EP is missing. AN said in a post however that it'll cost 3 wealth/3 culture, and improve education without any overt mechanical effect.
The king was throttling the governor of Sacredshore. The Palace Guards were uncertain if they should intervene, stand aside, or join in with a couple of swift kicks to the fool.
After a few moments they settled on breaking up the struggle between the two older men. When the king spat upon the governor, the guards did take that as a sign to join in.
*blink* what a way to start an update XD Also, very interesting that Uvothyn, who had consistently been overwhelmed emotionally and had to retreat to quiet shrine even in the face of too much cheering is willing to be quite so violent
Slumping to his throne, Uvothyn held his head in his hands for a moment before he said to the bloodlessly pale-faced enclave representative, "I apologize for the outburst, you didn't deserve that."
First time through i was really confused because i thought the general and the representative were the same person, but now i see that they aren't. Still, the representative is a bit freaked out at the King being so physically violent; Likely in their original home such a thing would be end poorly for him as well.
"Flood your communities with the specialists you lack? Yes, yes I am. Sigh... why did I not see this possibility before? Of course you wouldn't farm correctly, you got shoved into little communities with only poor explanations of what was expected of you," Uvothyn lamented.
As it turns out, making little enclaves during a massive social collapse was a great way to disrupt the transmission of knowledge about proper farming and land management techniques, and then ignoring the communities after was how you ended up entrenching bad practice that could then propagate out from there.
Huh, yeah, that really is something we should have thought of... at least we caught the issues I am curious what exactly they were doing wrong...there's obviously a layer of "not doing the right religious rites to appease the spirits", but a lot of those rites are, at least for us, also very practical things that, say, ensure proper soil nutrition and prevent erosion...
"I was actually more concerned with the whole 'threat of annihilation and displacement for heretical beliefs' thing that was going on a little bit ago," the community leader asked.
As shown here: "yes, yes, you have a diametrically opposed system of religion, but does it require you to be shitty at farming? Because thats really all i care about" XD
"Pray to him them if direct interface with the spirits offends your sensibilities so much. If you get blighted because you offended the local spirits then obviously he's a poor intermediary and we can rip you out root and branch with neither pity nor remorse. But if you screw up because no one told you the correct way to do things, that's on us," Uvothyn replies casually while waving his hand dismissively. "Whether there is one god or many matters less than the divine be properly venerated, with the most profound way being the care of the land. Even when the divine challenges you in the most profound ways, if you have kept faith in caring for the land then you shall not be found wanting."
The representative of the enclaves brought forth seemed to want to figure out some sort of argument against that line of thinking, before deciding that in light of failure to make headway in the debates prior to the revelation that they had not been instructed in proper land management techniques and were using a number of known bad practices out of simple ignorance and the king thus exploding on the governor who should have been responsible for ensure that, he decided that perhaps he should just cut his losses.
The debates and negotiations and reconciliations had mostly resulted in the recognition that those in the enclaves were still a part of the People and thus deserved better treatment, and made clear that the biggest issue the majority of the People had with the One God weirdos was that their refusal to pay respects to spirits endangered them all - but since there was theological debate among more mainline sects about the exact nature of divinity and whether there were many individual spirits or many expressions of a single Truth, it was agreed that so long as they paid their respects to something and the land didn't show obvious displeasure then the upper levels of the priesthood had better things to worry about that quibbling about doctrine.
Seeing a governor publicly shoveling shit for failing to ensure that his subordinates - even the hated ones - farmed correctly lead to a rapid updating of the theology of many of the more outcast groups. The revelation also triggered a widespread check of systems, and the ripping up of all sorts of bad practices that had crept in from the disruptions of the plague.
Again, love just how much our People really do care about Proper Farming Techniques XD And our reconciliation, and our King's outburst (both personal and the punishment he assigned) have gotten the rest of the People in gear
A bit expensive, but definitely good to know about the phantom econ early, and to head off both the enclaves issue and the farming issues we didn't know about...especially with the dam about to be started we want proper land management to be in place.
Around the time this whole thing was being dealt with, word got back that the various experts sent over to "aid with plague" recovery had managed to coax the Western Colonies into going along with the core territories, for the time being.
Somewhat significantly, word had filtered back that when Tinshore had looked into settling around Trelli they had discovered that Freehills had sent over warriors to claim the walls of the abandoned city, and were now shipping in settlers. They had also claimed territory to the north, and had apparently seized most of the former Khemetri territories to their south. From the sounds of things they were also pushing into Tin Tribe territories in the west, and possibly skirmishing with Highlanders who had been competing with them for former Khemetri colonies to the south
Alas, sounds like Freehills (with their lack of true cities and large herds) got off way easier than we did, and so claimed trelli and large swaths of its previous western territory... at least they're probably fighting the HK; might end up being able to sell out mercs to one or the other side Still, sounds like freehills is likely to end up a major player if they can consolidate their new lands...so hopefully they still like us and let us through the straits?
The Saffron Isles also sounded like they had taken the plague relatively well and had finally bounced back from whatever the Trelli had done to them, and were now rapidly expanding throughout whatever territory lay in the unknown south-west and west.
Also, the Western People had merged with the Storm Tribes in the hills when it became apparent that the few scholars among those who had migrated were really good at administration. Warriors drawn from nomadic tribes bearing high quality iron equipment and supported by a growing bureaucracy based off of the People were now rapidly conquering the less sophisticated tribes to the west, somewhat blocking off the expansion of Greenshore while also bringing in massive amounts of wealth. There were, by all accounts, going to be some major problems brewing as much of that wealth stemmed from conquest and the acquisition of slaves. While that was all internal farming and mining at the moment, there were some from Greenshore already warning that transport on the rivers and the Yllthon were going to become a major flashpoint. This was, perhaps, why the colonies were somewhat more willing to listen to the king once he had shown interest in supporting them. While some saw the Storm People as a viable alternative to the king in Valleyhome, others saw them as a threat.
Well damn :/ Sounds like they probably lost PiA, given the merger's cultural changes, but still a very dangerous threat... Gonna need more naval to get there, and more martial and light cav to throw at them...
When the delegate from the nomads who had taken over the Horse Mountains came by, the king wondered if there would be more "good" news. As it was, the chieftain was actually quite thankful for the presents and was willing to work out some sort of adjudication system over territorial disputes so long as the trade kept flowing. In exchange, the 'Forhuch', which apparently just meant 'People', had sent over samples of their own salt from the Salt Sea and samples of the things that they apparently picked up through trade across that body of water. While there was a fairly standard grouping of artwork made from precious metals and fine pottery, there were three peculiar groups.
Interesting...i assume this is just "this is from far enough away to be unknown language, but may be specifically "the far east has developed <different writing type>", like a full alphabet or whatever?
Patricians (6 {12}) - Power: Add or subtract their faction power from factions they are supporting/opposing. Objective: Build 0/4 Great Hall Annexes within 3 turns Reward: Government upgrade
Yeomen have matured, meaning every faction now has a Power. This ones interesting, basically being another source of Swords and Ploughshares. Helps keep our minimum martial up a bit higher, but removes some of our room for safe secondary martial.
Priests (2)- Power: Adds faction power to RA. Objective: Have a new level 2 temple somewhere within 2 turns. Success: +1 RA tolerance. Failure: -1 Stability
As always, very glad we've had the astrological rolls shown, given how many crit fails there have been...on that note, i believe this is the fourth turn of the quest reward, so we'll get the rolls for the rest of this turn (though provinces didn't take study stars, so we wont get a prediction), and then one more fullturn.
True Cities
[0/5 City Candidates, 3 Free Cities, 12 City Limit]
[Limit is (#Provinces + #LandedNonFreeCitySubordinates)/2]
[0 Non-Supported True Cites : -0 High Cent Tolerance]
[Cities activate when EE is at or below Threshold/2]
-Valleyhome [Capital, Palace, Aqueduct, Baths, Market, Sig. Walls] (20 EE Threshold)
-Blackmouth [Aqueduct, Baths, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls] (20 EE Threshold)
-Sacred Forest [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls] (18 EE Threshold)
-Stallion Pen [Aqueduct, Mass. Walls] (14 EE Threshold)
-Lower Valleyhome [Aqueduct] (8 EE Threshold)
-Valleyhome [Capital, Palace, Aqueduct, Baths, Market, Sig. Walls] (20 EE Threshold)
[20 (Base) + 6 (Infrastructure) - 6 (No Block Housing) = 20]
-Blackmouth [Aqueduct, Baths, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (20 EE Threshold)
[20 (Inherit) - 4 (Penalty) + 4 (Infrastructure) = 20]
-Sacred Forest [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls] (18 EE Threshold)
[20 (Inherit) - 5 (Penalty) + 3 (Infrastructure) = 18]
-Redshore [Governor's Palace, Aqueduct x2, Baths, Market, Ironworks x2, Sig. Walls] [Block Housing] <Level 2 City> {Level 2 Baths 3/6 Progress}
-Redhills [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls]
-Valleyguard [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls]
-Greenshore - Capital [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Greenshore - Unknown City [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Western Wall - Capital [Aqueduct, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Heaven's Hawk - Phygriftwyn [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
Libraries:
[Total effect: 3 Mysticism Refund]
-Sacred Forest (Temple, Megaproject, +1 Refund by itself)
-Valleyhome (True City)
-Valleyhome (Palace Annex x2 = 1 National Library)
-Stallion Pen (Temple)
-Redshore (True City) -Amber Road (Temple) (In Subordinate)
Temples
[4 Total Temple Levels, 1 Natural Wonder]:
-Sacred Forest in Sacred Shore (Lv 2)
-Dragon Graveyard in Stallion Province (Lv 2 + Natural Wonder)
-Horse Valley in Stonepen (Lv 1 + Lv 1 Observatory) -Amber Road (Lv 1) (Subordinate)
Salt/Gold Production
[Total Effect: +3.5 Wealth/turn]
-Heaven's Hawk (Lv 1 Salt Mine) (In Subordinate, Applies to Core Anyway) [+0.5]
-Heaven's Hawk (Gold Mine) (In Subordinate, Applies to Core Anyway) [+0.5]
Ironworks
[Total Level Count: 3]
[Effect on Expand Econ Secondary: +2 Econ, -2 EE, -2 Tech]
[Effect on City Support/Agriculture Passive Policies: +2 Econ, -2 EE, -1 Tech]
-Redhills (Megaproject) [Functions as Lv 1 for total Ironwork level count]
-Redshore (Lv 2)
Governor's Palace:
[All numbers are totals]
[-1 Min Cent Tolerance, -2 Max Cent Tolerance, +0 True City Admin Support]
[+2 Max Interconnectivity, +2 Temp Econ Damage Resistance]
[+2 Max Safe Martial, +2 RA Tolerance]
[+1.5 Tech Refund, including main Palace]
-Blackmouth
-Sacred Shore
-Western Wall (In Subordinate)
-Greenshore (In Subordinate) [In Progress 6/9]
Colossal Walls:
None in Core or Subordinates
Interconnectivity (21/55)
[Can gain Cent from roads up to half of max IC value (27/55), any past that will be banked]
[+7 Max Centralization Tolerance (IC/3, round down). 0 Banked Centralization]
[Max IC Formula: 2 + 3*Full_Provinces + Governor's_Palaces]
Provinces
[17 Full Provinces - 3 Extra Sec King Actions, 6 Sec Province Actions, 2 Main + 1 Sec Guild Actions]
[Next Action increases: +1 Sec Guild Action at 18 Provinces | +1 Sec Province Action at 19 Provinces | No Gain at 20 Provinces]
[New King Actions at every (13+4n) Province]
[New Province Actions at every (15+4n) Province]
[New King Actions at every (3n) Province]
[In Progress Provinces]
-Northern Blackriver [0/6]
[Subordinate Provinces]
<Just ignore this section for now, it's out of date, was only ever my (Abby Normal) guesses, and with the plague and unknown subordinate status, is likely even more wrong than I know>
-Western Wall - 2-3? Provinces (0? Ready to Integrate)
-Greenshore - 3-4? Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Heaven's Hawk - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [March]
-Txolla - 3-4? Provinces (2 Ready to Integrate) [Underdeveloped; can gain more provinces internally]
-Tinriver - 2-3? Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Thunder Horse - 3-4? Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Amber Road - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Immature Trading Post, cannot expand]
Stat Caps
[Base Cap - 27]
[Base is 10 + #Provinces]
[Wealth Cap - 22]
-Base Value (+10)
-17 Provinces (+17)
-5 Guild Faction Power (+2.5)
-15 RA Mylathadysm (-7.5)
[Safe Martial Limit - 37 {39}]
[Number in {} is safe "non-primary" martial, which refers to the extra martial we gain from econ, listed in {} on the civ sheet]
-Base Value (+10)
-17 Provinces (+17)
-2 Governor's Palaces (+2)
-Palace Arsenal Annexes (+1)
-Iron Age Census (+2)
-International Games (+5)
-Gymnasiums {+2}
Centralization Tolerances:
[Note: Being at a tolerance cap triggers penalties]
[Low Tolerance: - 2]
-Government Base "Neutral" (0)
-Legacies (-1)
-2 Governor's Palaces (-1) [-0.5 per GP]
[High Tolerance: 11]
-Government Base "High" (7)
-21 Interconnectivity (+7) [+1 per 3 IC]
-Legacies (+2)
-17 Provinces (-3) [-1 per 2 provinces over 12]
-0 Unsupported True Cities (-0) [-1 per Unsupported City. Free Cities and Capital are supported. Governor's Palaces can support 1 city per 3 GPs.]
-2 Governor's Palaces (-2) [-1 per GP]
Refunds
[All Refunds are limited on a per action basis]
[Econ Refund - 4 {2}]
[Refunds spent Econ as EE. Gained from True/Free Cities]
-Reworked salt/gold production section
-Added more detail to province bonus action section to better explain mechanics
-Updated Annex Limit to reflect knowledge that limit has decreased
-Updated TED Resistance
-Updated RA Tolerance
-Periphery Count is off, should be 13
-Not sure where the -1 econ per turn expense comes from, since our city support policy covers the free city's expenses fully?
-All the action sheet errors i mentioned in this post: Paths of Civilization(Also, since i think i forgot it in that post, the gymnasium action lists the wrong bonuses)
-1 What exactly were the enclaves doing wrong farming wise?
Answer: "Lots of little things. It was stuff like improper trash disposal so they weren't really generating Black Soil the way they should, not leaving fields fallow correctly, ploughing too early in the season, not planting soil stabilizing species around irrigation ditches, not shoring up irrigation ditches properly, etc., etc. Basically a hundred little to moderate things, plus not properly giving offerings and prayers to the spirits."
-2 Are the Storm People going to the Games? Either way, Western Ymaryn is still listed on the megaprojects listing
Answer: "Yes, will correct now that you have their name."
-3 Do the Storm People still have PiA?
Answer: "Downgraded, but still Econ drainers." (In other posts, he specified that they have "Cosmopolitan tolerance" a branch off of Cosmopolitan acceptance, with more focus on "must integrate immediately. Likely has same strength as CA for stab reduction, though, with "first hit in turn has chance of not applying".
-4 Since there was some debate on it earlier, is it north-south or east-west, and what exactly would the boundary passage do for us? Would it improve travel between the core and our eastern holdings?
Answer: "The boundary passage offers increased strategic mobility against the steppes or someone pushing up from the south. You could mass your logistics on one side of the boundary hills and then push through from a direction other than the obvious natural passes. It would also improve connectivity and trade."
-5 Should we have a march target above the provinces we integrated from teh western wall? I'd thought you said we would have one, but i might be misremembering?
Answer: "That's probably correct. If I don't include it next time, ping me again." (Have reminder for myself in my sticky note i keep for A&D reminders )
-6 When the traders ability says it lets them add or subtract from innovation rolls, is that just that if their power is negative we get a malus, or can they suppress innovations they don't like? If so, what kind of thing would they suppress? I get the guilds suppressing competing tech, but wouldn't the traders want to have tech that outcompetes existing stuff, to get one over on other traders?
Answer: "After rolling out this turn, I am adjusting it slightly, but basically if you cater to the traders they will add their faction power modifier to innovation rolls, where if you suppress them it will tank your innovation. Basically I'm sort of comparing pre-modern Western European and Islamic merchants and Sino-Sphere merchants. The former were more respected in their societies, and a lot of major technological innovations were fueled by demands for trade and seafaring and the ability to protect trade (the merchants were also huge dicks), where in China and related countries they were more looked down upon, and there was a distinct divergence. How these societies treated their merchant classes is obviously not the whole story, but it's a bit of a finger on the scales of society either way."
-7 Is it intentional that the trelli are still on teh trade sheet, albeit crossed out, since you've already removed the Mountain Horse?
Answer: "Mistake/IC out of date info, will redo after the next update as trade begins to resume"
Yes, I've seen that, that's why I'm asking the thread.
If this is right, in the first round of overflow, Mysticism doesn't overflow to anything, which is understandable if a little weird, and in the second round, Culture overflows to both Diplo and Tech, which has me baffled on how that's supposed to work. Does it spill over to one and then the other, or are the points split?
no, symphony bonuses happen when the thread makes super-unanimous decisions or when we take actions that really synergize with each other. This includes going full ham on megaprojects, for example, which is impossible without a lot of econ
I wonder if we're still going by the rule that other civilizations are also run by power gamers. If so, then what are some of the civilizations we haven't seen doing? Is there a research-focused civilization that's even more bullshit than we are? Are the American players trying to make sure that they can fuck the Old World up with just as many diseases as we give to them? Are the Australian players trying to become immune to poison?
and were we to fully switch to the kilns ignoring planting new forests for hundreds of years, I fully expect us to flat out lose the necessary skills and lose any chances to improve our terraforming abilities.
Here I disagree on the basis of over 1000 years before passive policies were a thing, during which we didn't expand our forests either unless it became unavoidable and during which we didn't lose our planting skills either
Also just because we don't have the cities plant forest doesn't mean our narrative stops its religious rituals of plants trees along the way or anything related to that
And finally if you honestly want to improve our terraforming abilities then going with passiv policies is completly the wrong way as they don't trigger the study forest action that has been integrated into our expand forest action
All of this is just false information at it best and fearmongering at it's worst
EE is Econ Expansion. The amount of arable land we have.
LTE is short for Long Term Econ and is the sum of Econ Expansion plus Economy.
Passive policies are essentially the lower level pieces of our polity getting together certain resources and doing things. A lot of the time the y do actions or generate stats, for free. The amount of Passive Policies we can have is listed on the front page.
All the non-player-chosen actions come from either: Our Subordinates, the provinces which under our government structure can do their own actions as limited by which ever Active Policy we got running, and some of our Passive Policies(mostly Infrastructure).
Cities act as demographic sinks, refunding spent Econ into Econ Expansion. One point of Econ to one point of Expansion per city, capped at the number of active cities. So if we had 4 cities active we could spend 4 Econ and get 4 Expansion back, but if we only had 2 active and spent 4 we would only gain 2 Expansion back. Cities are formed narratively when more than 100,000 people gather in a settlement. Mechanically they form due to going below half of the Econ Expansion Thresholds they all have, which are determined by varius projects we build in them. Go above that threshold and the cities "pop". A popped city still technically exists in a physical sense in the game world, it is simply much much emptier when popped.
EE is Economic Expansion slots. It is the limit of how much Economy we can gain.
LTE is how much we have total. This is the sum of both our current Economy and our current Economic Expansion slots. Too high means we cannot stop popping our cities. Too low means that we can starve and not be able to do anything about it.
Passive Policies happen every turn. Here is what they can be
Agriculture (+3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, -1 Tech/turn)
Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
Armament (+1 Martial/turn)
Patronage (+1 Culture/turn)
Mysticism (+1 Mysticism/turn)
Industry (+1 Tech/turn) City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech) x1
Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)
Innovation (Extra 2 innovation rolls each turn, -1 Wealth)
Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x2 Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x1
bold our our current policies.
Other projects can be started by our Provinces. For every two new provinces, they receive another secondary project slot to work with.
Cities increase the total innovation rolls a turn and open up new potential projects. They also give us a disease roll. They are established when a town is sufficiently populated. Aqua ducts helpa ns do temples and other attractors. They are popped when our Economic Expansion slots go too high. Narratively this means that all the open land has convinced city folk to move to the rural areas.
If this is right, in the first round of overflow, Mysticism doesn't overflow to anything, which is understandable if a little weird, and in the second round, Culture overflows to both Diplo and Tech, which has me baffled on how that's supposed to work. Does it spill over to one and then the other, or are the points split?
If you ignore the fact that this doesn't actually make logical sense outside of the stats, then sure, this is a great idea. The thing is, AN isn't a mindless computer, if we try that sort of blatant stat manipulation, he is going to fuck with us.
If you ignore the fact that this doesn't actually make logical sense outside of the stats, then sure, this is a great idea. The thing is, AN isn't a mindless computer, if we try that sort of blatant stat manipulation, he is going to fuck with us.
I completely disagree. We have charcoal demand, so we construct more efficient kilns to take care of the demand with fewer forests. This is not, at all, 'pure mechanical manipulation' it is the effect of technology on our fuel needs. Please explain to me how this does not make sense.
Also, please read the post I responded to and note that it only mentioned keeping up with demand, so that was all that I addressed.
-EE is "Econ Expansion", its basically "territory and excess labour that can be used to expand farming and other food production"
-LTE is a player acronym, "Long Term Econ", and is a shorthand way of showing, basically "Econ + EE", since thanks to our cities we usually refund most econ expenses into EE (See later one on cities), so over a long period of turns our ability to spend econ is mostly based on how much LTE we have, since most of the time Econ spent turns into EE than we can turn into Econ with Expand Econ actions
-Passive policies represent the low level actions of our bureaucracy and/or economy in general. We get 1 base, then an additional one for every true city level we have active (currently 4, since redshore is a level 2 city). We can assign them to the options listed on the action list (see last update "Post Plague Relations"), gaining whatever bonus is listed there each turn.
-Province actions are gained by our number of provinces, and are currently chosen by AN based on our Active Policy (currently "balanced"), which we can change to various types, again listed on the action list. Our free cities have passive policies of their own that they use according to their AI (so usually "for themselves", though they'll also help out the general polity in times of need). Our subordinates (Western Wall, Txolla, Thunder Horse, etc) all get actions of their own, based on how many provinces they have, and those are chosen by AN based on what their "AI" wants and needs
-True Cities are a mechanic to represent just how different a "true" city of ~100,000+ people is compared to a "normal" city or rural settlement, especially in this time period. To become a city candidate, a city must have an aqueduct built in it*, which usually is only available if the city is at least somewhat important (i.e. provincial capital). This then adds that city to the City List, which i maintain on my A&D posts (see my last post, i just posted one ), and which is copied over onto the civ sheet by AN. Each city has a certain "Attraction" value, or "EE Threshold" value, based on the infrastructure in the city, and its position on the list (each new city has a bigger and bigger penalty to its attraction). For a city to activate, our EE must hit half of their Threshold value (so if the threshold is 20, it'll activate when we hit EE 10), and if our EE exceeds that threshold, the city will deactivate. We can make our cities Free Cities, which costs an action, some Econ, some EE, and a subordinate slot. This represents giving the cities more freedom to administrate themselves. It removes the base econ upkeep and the administrative upkeep from the city, adds +1 culture/turn (due to our government type), and gives them a free passive policy/city level to use each turn based on their AI. It also removes them from teh city list and makes it so they dont care about our EE count.
Currently, we have no active "regular" true cities, due to having too much EE. We have 3 free cities active, however. Redshore (Level 2), redhills (Level 1), and Valleyguard (Level 1)
Each city:
Cons:
-Provides a Malus to disease rolls
-Costs econ each turn due to being a demographic sink. By default this is 1/turn, but thanks to our status of Panem (basically feeding the urban poor for free), they cost an additional 1 econ a turn. Additionally, if we build block housing into a city to let it become Level 2 (currently only redshore), it costs an extra econ/turn.
-Is an administrative hassle, reducing our Max Centralization Tolerance by 1, making it harder to remain a highly centralized government without taking penalties for being overcentralized
Pros:
-Each city level increases our Max Econ/EE Refund. Any econ spent in an action, up to this value, is refunded as EE. So if we have a refund of 2 and spend 3 econ in a single action, we'd gain 2 EE back. We'd go from, say, 5 econ/2 EE to 2 Econ/4 EE.
-Each city level gives us a player chosen passive policy slot
-Thanks to our government type, we gain +1 Culture/turn for each free city
-Thanks to the International Games, we gain +1 culture/turn for every 2 true cities we have
-True Cities enable lots of useful infrastructure, like Markets (provides wealth based on the econ upkeep of a city), libraries, ironworks, etc
*Technically not the only way, especially for other civs with less concern for smushing together slaves and poor urbanites into disease ridden slums, but for us its almost always the case.
If you ignore the fact that this doesn't actually make logical sense outside of the stats, then sure, this is a great idea. The thing is, AN isn't a mindless computer, if we try that sort of blatant stat manipulation, he is going to fuck with us.
We already know the limitations and effects of kilns. We can't spam them forever, but they're not stat manipulation.
Whether there would be mechanical and narrative effects of not planting any forests for generations is a different matter entirely, and one rightly to be afraid of. Doesn't necessitate forestry policies though.
I think there is a minor error here where the lv 1 Redshore Ironwork didn't get overwritten by the lv 2. But I am not sure.
Also, would you mind putting the Myranyn Mode Martial calculation formula? Not like, actually keep track of the number, but just leave it in variable form so that we can remember the formula easier. (E: Leave it here for your convenience; the sum of Econ + Wealth + (Sum of Ironworks Levels) x2 added to Temp Martial Score one combat phase after policy activated)
I have this sneaking suspicion that we will need it eventually
They're in my EP tracker; Cent tolerances have their own section, and are currently -2 (min) and 11 (Max), while RA is in the "Misc" section at the bottom since i dont know the breakdown, just that the evidence suggests its currently 12
I think there is a minor error here where the lv 1 Redshore Ironwork didn't get overwritten by the lv 2. But I am not sure.
Also, would you mind putting the Myranyn Mode Martial calculation formula? Not like, actually keep track of the number, but just leave it in variable form so that we can remember it easier.
I have this sneaking suspicion that we will need it eventually
I'm not sure what you mean? Unless you misread "Redhills" as "redshore"? or are you saying i should have two listings for redshore, one as level 1 and one as level 2?
And actually that should be added to the list of things @Academia Nut needs to add to the action list; that should be in the list of policies
They're in my EP tracker; Cent tolerances have their own section, and are currently -2 (min) and 11 (Max), while RA is in the "Misc" section at the bottom since i dont know the breakdown, just that the evidence suggests its currently 12
I'm not sure what you mean? Unless you misread "Redhills" as "redshore"? or are you saying i should have two listings for redshore, one as level 1 and one as level 2?
Yeah I think there should be two listings, one Level 1 and one Level 2.
Though really I should just ask the fecking question, @Academia Nut when we built the Level 2 Ironworks in Redshore did it "overwrite" the level 1 already there? I.e do we have (1+1+2) Ironwork levels or (1+2) Ironwork levels in regards to the Mass Levy formula?
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