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Paths of Civilization

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Sivantic said:
He did no such thing. He said they would need three turns accommodate to the different weather and the Red Banner to assist.

In turn they would help us prepare against the Trelli by giving us better construction material. It is specifically what they would be sent to do.
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He specifically said "if it doesn't die to weather damage in 3 turns". Considering Trade Posts start with 2 Econ, it could die in turn 1 since Weather damage goes up to 3 from what we know, so two Main Supports(one in the same turn as the founding) sending 4 Econ would ensure it does not die...but it eats up Econ AND the Red Banner, which gives us nothing to contest the Trelli when they start raiding.

None of which would pay out until 3 turns in at least while it gets set up. That the Northern Trade Post gives good materials is uncontested. That it would give us the material in a timespan that matters to this issue is. If they take the Western Trade Post spot we basically don't have any option left but to beat them at sea in an offensive war.
 
veekie said:
But they aren't? People asked how many of their units will they deploy in an attack. AN said All of them.
But he STILL said that the Red Banner is likely to win unless they went out to hire more while blockading them.

Doing nothing is fine, though it basically almost never wins.
The North Trade Post is the far bigger sink in costs and actions however, since the West Trade Post's main challenge is basically catching up in boat technology, with a material advantage, love of wisdom and at least three periphery states working on it(four, but I'm not sure if the Stallions would want to bother despite being also coastal).

Particularly, as long as we don't switch policy, we're getting the Palace Partial completion bonus next turn. No matter what, the Palace WILL complete fully the turn after and we can also start the census.
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Looking at the map, it seems that the Stallions don't control any coastline.
 
PrimalShadow said:
We might be able to set aside the Northern Trading Post in theory, but we certainly aren't going to do it in practice, so it is going to be annoying us for multiple turns at the minimum. Not to mention what happens the next time we find hostiles and can't reinforce them. I don't want ANYONE with Iron tech being lost to the Nomads, than you.
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I for one absolutely would. And frankly, Northern Nomads with Iron doesn't bother me-they're not advanced enough to refine it even if they had the entire process handed to them.
veekie said:
Doing nothing is fine, though it basically almost never wins.
The North Trade Post is the far bigger sink in costs and actions however, since the West Trade Post's main challenge is basically catching up in boat technology, with a material advantage, love of wisdom and at least three periphery states working on it(four, but I'm not sure if the Stallions would want to bother despite being also coastal).

Particularly, as long as we don't switch policy, we're getting the Palace Partial completion bonus next turn. No matter what, the Palace WILL complete fully the turn after and we can also start the census.
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You think that a Post that will stabilize or die within three turns at the outside is going to be more work than a Trading Post specifically designed to piss off the strongest and wealthiest people in the area? How? It's not just boats-even if we get some technological parity, we cannot kill them. Which means that their heavily Wealth based economy that controls all trade coming into our sea is going to have every reason to hate us.
 
Hangwind said:
You think that a Post that will stabilize or die within three turns at the outside is going to be more work than a Trading Post specifically designed to piss off the strongest and wealthiest people in the area? How? It's not just boats-even if we get some technological parity, we cannot kill them. Which means that their heavily Wealth based economy that controls all trade coming into our sea is going to have every reason to hate us.
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Because it's a fairly straight case that if the Trelli don't kill the Trade post in 2 turns(Major Walls, Docks, towers), that they can't really kill it at all until they get siegecraft. WHILE all our dudes are cranking out accelerated boat innovations to contest their sea dominance.

At which point they can't really make enough boats to keep up the fight.
 
Hangwind said:
I for one absolutely would. And frankly, Northern Nomads with Iron doesn't bother me-they're not advanced enough to refine it even if they had the entire process handed to them.

You think that a Post that will stabilize or die within three turns at the outside is going to be more work than a Trading Post specifically designed to piss off the strongest and wealthiest people in the area? How? It's not just boats-even if we get some technological parity, we cannot kill them. Which means that their heavily Wealth based economy that controls all trade coming into our sea is going to have every reason to hate us.
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There is a reason that the NTP is labelled dangerous and the Trelli trading post is only labelled risky.
 
veekie said:
Because it's a fairly straight case that if the Trelli don't kill the Trade post in 2 turns(Major Walls, Docks, towers), that they can't really kill it at all until they get siegecraft. WHILE all our dudes are cranking out accelerated boat innovations to contest their sea dominance.

At which point they can't really make enough boats to keep up the fight.
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A) There are more ways of fighting than with swords.
B) You are seriously underestimating the advancements of a society that depends almost exclusively on their navy.
 
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Negaverse: Trade Post Quest
  • Apocrypha
    • Negaverse: Trade Post Quest
    ​
    The Ymaryn. The Glorious Kingdom of Crow, the kingdom which has stood the tests of time, and which has created great wealth and prosperity for its people. It allies and vassals live in peace under the protection of its mighty armies, while its enemies can only tremble in fear. From its grand temples to its wondrous aqueducts, few of it's neighbors can even approach the majesty of this great kingdom.

    But not all is good for this beautiful land. To the east lies recently defeated foes of the Lowlands, kingdoms of lesser, but still potent power ruling those downtrodden people. While one kingdom alone cannot challenge the might of the Ymaryn, together, even the legendary Red Banner would be wary of the power that could be arrayed against them. For now, these kingdoms lick their wounds they received at the hands of the legendary armies of the Ymaryn. But the wary peace could be broken at any moment, and the King of the Ymaryn knows this well...

    To the north lies the Endless Steppes, upon which ride the nomadic tribes. Times have been peaceful for the north of late, with few of even the most powerful of the nomadic tribes willing to challenge the might of the Ymaryn. This has been further helped by the abundant rain which has turned the normally dry Steppes green and lush with life.

    But as generations pass, the nomads slowly lose their fear of the great armies of the Ymaryn. For all that they fear the power of the Ymaryn, the wealth of the Kingdom can bring forth the greed of even the most humble of nomadic warriors. And with a new way of utilizing horses, the nomadic warriors grow bolder with every passing year...

    To the south lies the provinces of Hatriver and Hatvalley. Wealthy and safe from attack, there seems little danger to the Kingdom from this direction. And yet old memories stir, of a time when these two provinces were their own great kingdom. When their kingdom had fallen, the gods angered by the arrogance and greed of their rulers, the Ymaryn had stepped forward to preserve what little they could. And under the wise and benevolent rule of the Ymaryn kings, this region had prospered beyond all expectations.

    But many, especially among the nobility, had started to forget what they had been granted by the Kingdom. They saw only the King's taxes draining their wealth to be used elsewhere, never remembering that the king had once taken the wealth of the core lands of the kingdom to restore their own lands. They only saw what they considered to be the greed of the King, taking wealth to provide for his vanity...

    In the core of the Ymaryn, the king stood upon the hill of the great city of Valleyhome, overlooking the construction of a grand palace. It would likely be well after his death that the building would be complete, but he surveyed its progress with satisfaction. However, the King knew deep in his heart that the palace needed to be finished as quickly as could be, for while the core of the kingdom seemed to rule the lands well, the strain of managing such a great amount of land was becoming too much. The creation of the palace was a last, desperate hope to be able to handle this complex administration, and as such no expense had been spared...

    But the King also knew that there was a danger that, while distant for now, could one day threaten all that the Ymaryn held as good and just. Looking out from the hill, the king looked west, towards the port city of Redshore and beyond.

    For here had arisen a new danger, from an area long thought to possess none. The Trelli, a grand city of trade and commerce, had learned how to use its great wealth to hire warriors for coin. Already, these mercenary armies ravaged the west, spreading chaos and death wherever they went, as well as enslaving all that they could find. Ships with hulls full of slaves now filled the docks of that cursed city, their markets for flesh now possessing an endless stream of bodies to sell.

    The Ymaryn could only feel disgust for such acts, and yet what could be done? The fleets of Trelli were more than a match for the Ymaryn fleets, the sleek Trelli ships designed for war in a way the longships of the Ymaryn were not. Even the distance was too great for any intervention to be even considered, as even the closest trading post of Greenshore was still far away from that black city.

    The King's mind once again turned towards his options. His advisors had suggested several plans to him, each with their own benefits and detriments.

    The first was to establish a trade post to the far north. Expeditions in the past had spoken of immense trees, far greater in size and strength than your own local forests. Any Ymaryn would be interested in hearing of a new type of forest to explore, and the chance to turn those wondrous trees into an advantage against the wicked Trelli was nearly too good to pass up.

    However, the lands to the north were cold, their winters almost impossible to endure. How likely would the survival of such a trading post be, when your people had little knowledge of how to survive such conditions? Not to mention that any aid that such a trading post could grant to you would be several generations away. And with word of wealth-crazed pirates supported by the Trelli operating nearby... Maybe one of the other posts would work better.

    The second was a trading post to the northwest of Trelli. A post could be placed at the mouth of the river to the Tin Tribes. Not only would this post be closer to Trelli, it would occupy a strategic location that could be used to cut the city off from one of it's most important imports: Tin. Without the ability to make bronze or sell the metal to its neighbors, the city's finances would suffer greatly. And without the coin to pay their mercenaries, they would no longer be able to maintain the large numbers of men they did. Of course, this was a clear provocation, and could even lead to a war that the King was unsure could be successfully fought.

    That left a trading post to the east of the city. While less strategically vital, it was also far easier to defend and supply than its western brother was. With luck, the local bandits could be pacified, and the villages brought under the influence of the trade post. It's position would increase trade between Hatvalley and Trelli quite significantly, allowing wealth to flow into the Kingdom in ever greater quantities. Though it could equally strengthen the position of the Trelli as well...

    Starting Location:

    [ ] The North:
    Pros:
    -New Trade Goods
    -Trees to Build New Boats

    Cons:
    -Harsh Environment
    -Nomads

    [ ] The West:
    Pros:
    -Access to Tin Trade
    -Greenshore

    Cons:
    -Angers Trelli (Possible War)
    -Little support from Ymaryn Kingdom

    [ ] The East
    Pros:
    -Strong Trade Route
    -Easily Supported by Ymaryn Kingdom

    Cons:
    -Trade Strengthens Trelli
    -Pirates...


    Note: So, why did I write this out you ask? Because I plan to write a negaverse series based on whatever trade post wins. :V
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • We should probably expand forwst soonish in preperation for sawmills massively spanding our wood production.
     
    Academia Nut said:
    Grand Docks - With the new docks in place, further expansion to something of a more significant scale could be of benefit (4-6? action commitment, -1 Econ per action, will likely require a significant supply of timber)
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    We need this if we want to make sure we can keep up with the Trelli, trade post or not. Make the Lowlands a colony, and forest the lowlands to fund it.
     
    Saltern - Northshore Saltern Expansion (0/10), Southshore Saltern Expansion (0/10). Each {S} committed consumes 2 Econ for 2 Progress. Completion gives additional Diplomacy and every 2 salterns or expansions increases the per turn Diplomacy by +1
    Aqueduct - Redshore (0/8), Lower Valleyhome (0/4), Stonepen (0/6), Blackmouth (0/8), Redhills (0/6). Each {S} committed consumes 2 Econ for 2 Progress. Completion adds +4 Econ Expansion and can allow for the formation of another True City
    Temple - Progress listed below, each {S} committed consumes 2 Econ and 2 Art for 2 Progress. Completion increases Religious Authority
    Library - Any location with a temple and/or True City status can have a library, with each {S} committed consuming 2 Art and 2 Mysticism for 2 progress. Completion grants Mysticism, every 2 libraries past the first increases the Mysticism refund by 1. Sacred Forest (0/4)

    The Games - Physical competition and prowess are becoming a popular pass time and way for warriors and militia to train. Could a special festival be founded to celebrate this? (4-6? action commitment, -1 Mysticism and Art per action, 2 Econ total commitment) [Elites]
    Grand Docks - With the new docks in place, further expansion to something of a more significant scale could be of benefit (4-6? action commitment, -1 Econ per action, will likely require a significant supply of timber)
    Great Dam - The river can run wild and dangerous when the rains come strong, but could it not be controlled by the same principles by which the water on the hills is channelled and contained, merely on a larger scale? (5-7? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)
    Place to the Stars - The shamans have noticed deeper patterns among the stars than they ever imagined, and setting up long term memories of where things should be could be intensely useful, if also labor intensive to get sufficiently durable markers in place (7-10? action commitment, -1 Econ per action, some Mysticism commitment)

    /hisses greedily/
     
    Killer_Whale said:
    We need this if we want to make sure we can keep up with the Trelli, trade post or not. Make the Lowlands a colony, and forest the lowlands to fund it.
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    Somehow, we seem to be keeping up with them just fine; we just happened to take a different boat design than they did, and it is good for different things. If we want to catch up on what they do well now, we can just keep doing what we've been doing already - building docks, boats, and the like. A Grand Dock would let us get ahead, but it is by no means necessary.



    Also, I strongly oppose rushing the Lowlands to deal with the Trelli. In fact, if anything, that is backwards; I think that the lowlands are more important to us in the near-to-mid future.
     
    ThrawnCA said:
    But if we don't take that spot, there doesn't need to be a war at all.
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    Did we read the same post? Its pretty clear to me that the Trelli plan on raiding our shipping no matter what we do. What we are choosing is how to prepare for said raids.

    I suppose that one nation attacking another doesn't count as war if the other doesn't fight back, but that seems like a silly distinction.
     
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