I am pretty sure he meant that one of the options is an offensive option.
I'm pretty sure he was trying to be clear, since we'd just been discussing offensive operations against the Trelli for 15 pages before the update.

Other people attacking us for interfering with their trade is still a completely defensive war.
 
Well, the sole danger of the taiga is the climate, which would be manageable after a few turns. Horse nomads don't exist in taiga, and the locals are primitive enough that they are not even a nuisance. Furthermore trade posts manage themselves.

What am getting at is that the far north post would be beneficial if we decide to focus inwards.



And @veekie regarding the tied up actions and costs. A war would have similar results if it breaks. True it depends on the dice, but so does the Northern weather.
The Far North Trade Post is counter-beneficial. Like, even WITH the Trelli and mercenary armies, it's still the more risky and costly option, while simultaneously committing all the resources we need to fight piracy.

It's simply insane, I wouldn't have had nearly this much opposition if the rival platform was East or Form Mercenaries, which while less effective, is at least not actively self-defeating.
ETA Plus, if we create the east trading post, the Trelli will likely leave it alone, yes? And then we can take the opportunity to make a second mercenary company using our new salt Wealth, and that will put us in a much stronger position.
Nope. Read the update. The Trelli would have similar chances of attacking it, the main difference is that it's right next to Hatvalley so they can't blockade it.
I don't expect a slugging match, I expect a blitz.

Hiring lots of mercs for one turn to utterly smash a threat is a very feasible strategy, and threatening their tin would give them ample cause to press their own exterminatus button.
By the way @veekie, have you considered that if the Trelli take serious offense and launch a large-scale assault to protect their tin supply, we risk losing the Red Banner?
I have to call bullshit here.
The Red Banner are probably hard enough to take them, but the Trelli are much closer and it would be difficult to support a post that far out. If you got blockaded things could get very dicey, especially if the Trelli brought in extra tribes for support.

Word of AN is they're probably going to lose to the Red Banner.
Yes with all their current mercenaries.

The risk lies in a blockade, which we counter with Build Ships(Greenshore, Western Wall and Hatvalley will contribute as well), and that they might hire additional tribes to attack, which makes their ability to sustain such a war even lower, but would require likely forming another Merc company to deploy to counter.
However, in a blockade scenario, the Trelli are also losing significant amounts of wealth every turn, so it's basically playing chicken, especially if we sent some aid to the West Trade Post in the first turn before they realized they need to use a blockade instead of raids. Does the Trade post fall before they run out of money?
Fighting a blockade will probably require innovation in boat design, although it will also massively accelerate the process. Support Subordinate may be blocked or intercepted by a blockade of sufficient strength.
And here, we're specifically getting a boat innovation speed boost while they do so, coupled to Love of Wisdom.
Their immediate neighbours work for them. Those that didn't were wiped out by those that hired on, sold off to the Saffron Islands, Khemetri, and Tin Tribes, their land brought under Trelli control or gifted to their mercs as a reward.
Typical enough, though does the bolded mean that they're forming Marches?
In the immediate term, the western post doesn't do anything to prepare us, though?

Long term, it could somewhat interfere with their tin supply, but all that means in the short term is, war becomes far more likely.

I'm still in favor of building boats and an extra mercenary company. That's as much as any plan can prepare IMO.
In the immediate term, it gives us a staging point near them at a strategic location. It means instead of dealing with raids all along the black sea, you're going to see more focused raiding directed at one spot, which is easier to protect. At the same time, this is a really poor time for the Trelli to turn their attention to the Black Sea, so it's tactically a bad idea for them to attack right now unless they know how well the Ymaryn fight(which they don't, because they've never seen us fight before)

In the mid term, it locks up the Trelli mercenaries and drains their wealth. We're WoG likely going to handle the blitz just fine, the real difficulty lies in a blockade, which would basically stall Trelli expansion while they wreck their own wealth
The ones loyal to them they hire out to make money, the ones loyal to club they keep under more direct control to secure the local area and raid for slaves.
Figures. Wouldn't that put them in a sticky spot if their hire opportunities run out?
Also how many loyal ones are they supporting with their prestige anyway?

For the matter, how does a slave raid work mechanically?
They switch them out when someone can no longer afford their services, which sometimes is to someone else, but again, they get the idea enough to not let the mercs that might be able to be bought out anywhere near anyone who might be able to buy them out. Hostages are often also involved, in that they will keep the families of mercs out campaigning for them "safe" in the comforts of Trelli.
Pretty typical means of control, both bribe and threat.
 
I'm actually serious here; war takes up a lot of actions. We need a lot of actions to get ourselves out of trouble. So what's the rationale?

And I'm serious! That's what the more vocal voters cited.

Edit: Them Treill using mercs to enslave people so evil, them using fast boats must be for evil things, them playing like SV so only one of us can live, etc.
 
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I like how everyone seem to think were moving in the red banner this midterm to whatever trade post were making, what if were attacked before we move the red banner?
 
I'm actually serious here; war takes up a lot of actions. We need a lot of actions to get ourselves out of trouble. So what's the rationale?
A few things:
-AN had confirmed that the North Trade Post would also require a lot of actions and resources committed to keep it alive. At least one Mercenary company, and enough Econ to survive 3 turns of being fucked by the weather(amounting to about 3-9 Econ cost to avoid death, while unable to send aid in reaction due to distance if they roll badly)

-The Trelli are going to open up raiding anyways, not building a trade post would fail to avert a war, though it might delay it while they finish their southern landgrabs, but building it would ensure a better strategic position if war occurs.

As such, every vote is already committing to a lot of committed actions.
At least the Trade Post helps make things easier by committing the actions to the problem, and offloading most of these actions to our periphery states.
 
And I'm serious! That's what the more vocal voters cited.
I'm mostly voting for the West Trade Post because I want them to stop raiding in the general area of the Black Sea, and I want to put a stop to it or at least deter them from doing so before they get too wealthy and start getting ideas.

I like how everyone seem to think were moving in the red banner this midterm to whatever trade post were making, what if were attacked before we move the red banner?

AN said that we would move the Red Banner to whatever trade post we founded automatically.
 
I'm actually serious here; war takes up a lot of actions. We need a lot of actions to get ourselves out of trouble. So what's the rationale?
General rationale is that it may not cause a war, and that it would probably save us many of the headaches we'd be exposed to if the Trelli grow uncheched.

My personal rationale is that the only other competitive plan is the northern trading post, which ALSO takes up a lot of actions, but doesn't come with the benefit of curbing our rivals at the same time.
 
I like how everyone seem to think were moving in the red banner this midterm to whatever trade post were making, what if were attacked before we move the red banner?
Word of AN it's automatic, none of the three Trade Posts will survive for long without a company stationed there(yes, including the Northern Trade Post, so anyone assuming it's safe from attack might want to revise their views), so our King will do it by default.
 
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, East
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West

I am opposed to founding a northern trade post right now. I don't think we have the voting discipline to give it the support it needs to survive the first few turns while also doing a megaproject rush.

Incidentally, now that RA is no longer yellow, I'd like to try to build another temple within the next couple turns. Maybe at Redshore?
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Crazy7s1 on Jul 14, 2017 at 10:35 PM, finished with 76380 posts and 108 votes.
 
I'm mostly voting for the West Trade Post because I want them to stop raiding in the general area of the Black Sea, and I want to put a stop to it or at least deter them from doing so before they get too wealthy and start getting ideas.

This goes under "pirate" umbrella i posted earlier. :p

And they are filled with wealth and idea already.
 
I don't know how many times I've said this at this point. I feel it should have been pretty obvious, it's because doing nothing means they just raid us at their leisure instead. Snowballing of the gains that gives them to constantly intensify such raiding.
Except they cannot, because we have already wall all our peripheries and set down watch towers. If you think their land forces are on the level of Nomads, you are seriously overestimating their forces.
The Far North Trade Post is counter-beneficial. Like, even WITH the Trelli and mercenary armies, it's still the more risky and costly option, while simultaneously committing all the resources we need to fight piracy.

It's simply insane, I wouldn't have had nearly this much opposition if the rival platform was East or Form Mercenaries, which while less effective, is at least not actively self-defeating.
You're right setting up a camp right next to them to attack at their leisure is insane. Where as finding better construction material
I have to call bullshit here.
and I have call B******* on you as well.

The two were referring to different events. One in which they attack with their home forces, that we can probably take, and the other two where they call back their loyal forces and hire nearby tribes
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, East
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West

I am opposed to founding a northern trade post right now. I don't think we have the voting discipline to give it the support it needs to survive the first few turns while also doing a megaproject rush.

Incidentally, now that RA is no longer yellow, I'd like to try to build another temple within the next couple turns. Maybe at Redshore?
And what is the rationale behind that? Why would we not send them assistance?
 
A few things:
-AN had confirmed that the North Trade Post would also require a lot of actions and resources committed to keep it alive. At least one Mercenary company, and enough Econ to survive 3 turns of being fucked by the weather(amounting to about 3-9 Econ cost to avoid death, while unable to send aid in reaction due to distance if they roll badly)

-The Trelli are going to open up raiding anyways, not building a trade post would fail to avert a war, though it might delay it while they finish their southern landgrabs, but building it would ensure a better strategic position if war occurs.

As such, every vote is already committing to a lot of committed actions.
At least the Trade Post helps make things easier by committing the actions to the problem, and offloading most of these actions to our periphery states.
I literally wouldn't care if we didn't do anything, we cannot afford a war. if we go into a war, we're nearly guaranteed to schism, because either A) we lose and lose a ton of Stability in the middle of a crisis, B) it continues on turn after turn and we just run out of time, or C) we win, expand, and crack because we have literally no Admin wiggle room left.
I'm mostly voting for the West Trade Post because I want them to stop raiding in the general area of the Black Sea, and I want to put a stop to it or at least deter them from doing so before they get too wealthy and start getting ideas.
Short of conquering them, nothing is going to stop raiders on the sea once you have advanced enough boats. Look at Rome and Carthage. There's a reason that Rome eventually just moved in and burned them to the bedrock.
General rationale is that it may not cause a war, and that it would probably save us many of the headaches we'd be exposed to if the Trelli grow uncheched.

My personal rationale is that the only other competitive plan is the northern trading post, which ALSO takes up a lot of actions, but doesn't come with the benefit of curbing our rivals at the same time.
It's going to make them worse because they'll be closer. Think of it like Nomads: The raids aren't going away you just need to kick them away everytime they get too close.

We can set and forget the Northern Trading Post. It might mean a one-time loss of Stability if they die, but it's a one-time thing. This dumbass outpost near the most annoyingly aggressive polity around is going to be trouble for centuries at the very least.
 
This goes under "pirate" umbrella i posted earlier. :p

And they are filled with wealth and idea already.
Their current ideas are "we can beat up weak minors for money and slaves."

As they get more money and more slaves to fund more armies, said ideas could easily become "We can beat up that trade post full of people, luxuries, and other trade goods (Greenshore) for wealth and slaves", and they will have a better shot at it the more money and armies they can accumulate.
 
A few things:
-AN had confirmed that the North Trade Post would also require a lot of actions and resources committed to keep it alive. At least one Mercenary company, and enough Econ to survive 3 turns of being fucked by the weather(amounting to about 3-9 Econ cost to avoid death, while unable to send aid in reaction due to distance if they roll badly)

-The Trelli are going to open up raiding anyways, not building a trade post would fail to avert a war, though it might delay it while they finish their southern landgrabs, but building it would ensure a better strategic position if war occurs.

As such, every vote is already committing to a lot of committed actions.
At least the Trade Post helps make things easier by committing the actions to the problem, and offloading most of these actions to our periphery states.
He did no such thing. He said they would need three turns accommodate to the different weather and the Red Banner to assist.

In turn they would help us prepare against the Trelli by giving us better construction material. It is specifically what they would be sent to do.
 
General rationale is that it may not cause a war, and that it would probably save us many of the headaches we'd be exposed to if the Trelli grow uncheched.

My personal rationale is that the only other competitive plan is the northern trading post, which ALSO takes up a lot of actions, but doesn't come with the benefit of curbing our rivals at the same time.
You aren't currently voting for any trading post though?
 
It's going to make them worse because they'll be closer. Think of it like Nomads: The raids aren't going away you just need to kick them away everytime they get too close.

We can set and forget the Northern Trading Post. It might mean a one-time loss of Stability if they die, but it's a one-time thing. This dumbass outpost near the most annoyingly aggressive polity around is going to be trouble for centuries at the very least.
We might be able to set aside the Northern Trading Post in theory, but we certainly aren't going to do it in practice, so it is going to be annoying us for multiple turns at the minimum. Not to mention what happens the next time we find hostiles and can't reinforce them. I don't want ANYONE with Iron tech being lost to the Nomads, than you.
 
and I have call B******* on you as well.

The two were referring to different events. One in which they attack with their home forces, that we can probably take, and the other two where they call back their loyal forces and hire nearby tribes
But they aren't? People asked how many of their units will they deploy in an attack. AN said All of them.
But he STILL said that the Red Banner is likely to win unless they went out to hire more while blockading them.
I literally wouldn't care if we didn't do anything, we cannot afford a war. if we go into a war, we're nearly guaranteed to schism, because either A) we lose and lose a ton of Stability in the middle of a crisis, B) it continues on turn after turn and we just run out of time, or C) we win, expand, and crack because we have literally no Admin wiggle room left.
Doing nothing is fine, though it basically almost never wins.
The North Trade Post is the far bigger sink in costs and actions however, since the West Trade Post's main challenge is basically catching up in boat technology, with a material advantage, love of wisdom and at least three periphery states working on it(four, but I'm not sure if the Stallions would want to bother despite being also coastal).

Particularly, as long as we don't switch policy, we're getting the Palace Partial completion bonus next turn. No matter what, the Palace WILL complete fully the turn after and we can also start the census.
 
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