- Location
- Mists of Albion
We don't need to besiege the city, we just have to hold the Trade Post for three generations or so and watch as they collapse without their two largest trade partners and due to a lack of Bronze.
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Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
AN hasn't said it has changed. It was also one of the major impetus for the Law(Iron Age) megaproject, and was punishment for having an overcentralized government without the legal structure to support it. So I doubt that has changed. Either way, we are in like no danger of it at the moment.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
They solo'd the Xoh whilst fighting for the Highlanders, remember their Main force died in a flash flood then the Red Banner came in and stomped the Xoh, also the Thunder Speakers had virtually no military during their uprising aside from the Red Banner. So they've solo'd empires
A 'hard fight' means that we could definitely lose.
They had logistic support from our customers.
- Location
- Austria
> Red Banner can solo kingdoms
Lol what? Seriously. At its prime it had 3 heroes leading it and was a part of larger force.
I mean...when did the RB act solo?
I literally propose an approach and you interpret it as "silence is all you have to offer", while voting for the thing which will distract us from the nomads?
Are you for real?
You mean not surviving, burden of proving it can survive is all on you.
And proving it can not survive...haha, easy. Greek colonies in Anatolia vs Persia, greek colonies in Italy vs Rome, a lot of greek colonies in the Black Sea, a lot of early American colonies vs natives and so on and so forth.
So, uh, plenty of examples off the top of my head. Care to actually provide any defense of yours position beyond "Ymaryn Master Race" and "No you"? Or will you keep putting words in my mouth?
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Yeah the Red Banner might break with a bad roll but they could probably outlast the Trelli. As I said it's basically seiging an entire civilisation.
The Thunder Speakers were a group of rebels and the Highlanders were being hurt by flash floods, I think our Trade Post and bear city of Green Shore can do similar amount of support
- Location
- Mists of Albion
- Location
- Huezil
Crap wood for planking and keel, it's not even straight...
The pines we will get Syberian Pine
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
You mean after an already long drawn out war while the Xoh had rebellions going on?
The Thunder Speaker rebelled because they knew that the Thunder Horse military was SPENT. At the time we thought they were idiots, but no, it was because we don't have all the information.
This is the same for the Highlanders. What was the Xoh going to do when they are fighting on multiple front in bad weathers?
Keep in mind that the court said that the TP will be difficult to resupply. This is much more difficult than the TS and HK supplying us.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
@ctulhuslp
nah, I don't actually know any history. Don't recall any american colonies that were wiped out by Native Americans blockading their rivers and starving them out, however.
Your approach isn't something we can do to solve the nomad problem. It's simply leaving us room to deal with the nomad problem if it arises. Is this a correct summation?
@SpeckofStardust Their massive navy dedicated to a) strait interdiction or b) southern piracy?
NB, to clarify I'm voting for the NTP.
nah, I don't actually know any history. Don't recall any american colonies that were wiped out by Native Americans blockading their rivers and starving them out, however.
Your approach isn't something we can do to solve the nomad problem. It's simply leaving us room to deal with the nomad problem if it arises. Is this a correct summation?
@SpeckofStardust Their massive navy dedicated to a) strait interdiction or b) southern piracy?
NB, to clarify I'm voting for the NTP.
The original golden age benefit I was cited was
Apparently that referred to the action and not the stat back then, and that was pointed out to me earlier.
That has nothing to do with baby boom income; we don't get baby boom income until after we've spent our actions for the turn.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
I still think that the Trelli are repeating the mistakes of the original lowlanders, hitting a prosperity button over and over. Until the pressure bursts its tank and causes massive casualties.
And the very worst response IMO is to provoke them while their military bubble is expanding. For now they are strong, and we should keep our heads down until they burst. Which they will. They've started a huge round of wars, and no way are they immune.
It's not like we really need the Trelli. We have plenty of alternative sources of wealth, and plenty of worthwhile projects in the east. We could expand our salterns to use up the baby boom! We don't need to step in and deny them the tin, because we don't need to care. If we don't provoke them, they have no reason for nation-level war, and we can soon show their raiders that we're a poor risk/return tradeoff, if we aren't threatening their strategic trade good.
Basically, I agree with @veekie that the Trelli might settle the west if we don't, but I say, So what? If we don't start a war, it won't matter much.
ETA Plus, if we create the east trading post, the Trelli will likely leave it alone, yes? And then we can take the opportunity to make a second mercenary company using our new salt Wealth, and that will put us in a much stronger position.
And the very worst response IMO is to provoke them while their military bubble is expanding. For now they are strong, and we should keep our heads down until they burst. Which they will. They've started a huge round of wars, and no way are they immune.
It's not like we really need the Trelli. We have plenty of alternative sources of wealth, and plenty of worthwhile projects in the east. We could expand our salterns to use up the baby boom! We don't need to step in and deny them the tin, because we don't need to care. If we don't provoke them, they have no reason for nation-level war, and we can soon show their raiders that we're a poor risk/return tradeoff, if we aren't threatening their strategic trade good.
Basically, I agree with @veekie that the Trelli might settle the west if we don't, but I say, So what? If we don't start a war, it won't matter much.
ETA Plus, if we create the east trading post, the Trelli will likely leave it alone, yes? And then we can take the opportunity to make a second mercenary company using our new salt Wealth, and that will put us in a much stronger position.
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Well, barring our trade post west of Trelli blowing up and taking the Red Banner with it. That'd be a lot of stability to lose at once.
Note that while this is a fucking stupid long-term strategy, it's very effective in the short-run. If we're far enough away, our best bet is to let them burn out rather than jumping in front of the rampage.
- Location
- Austria
Um...no? That's a misrepresentation.
They helped TS to defend against their overlords until overlords decided they have better things to do.
Then they went and helped Highlanders to defend against Xoh, who were pressed by Swamp Folk. It's not like they were ever actually fighing solo or too far from our lands or against full power of an empire: it was always with at least some support, with at least partial supplies, often with one or more heroes and almost never against fully operational empire concentrated on them alone.
None of the above holds true in the hypothetical defense of the Trade Post scenario: Trelli are fully healthy, they do not have anything as urgent going on (especially if they get the wind of us fielding a lot of iron - they will ignore everything else and come knocking) and have us safely within their supply range, while we are on the very edge of our supply range while being contested heavily in supplying and RB have literally nobody else to fall back on or even draw rectruits from, because there is not going to be too much colonists.
Yeep. They did not even need it, despite lower tech. If they had naval dominance, well...that would just be overkill, despite vastly lower tech.
I mean, if Native Americans had better naval forces than colonizers and were not almost all killed by disease, there would not be much if any colonizing happening - certainly none without their explicit approval.
Kind of my point, really: even with the massive difference in tech, natives can purge the colonists. With smaller tech difference or natives outright having better tech in some areas, well, if they want you to go and stay go, you are kind of fucked.
No, it is leaving us breathing room to turn on Defensive Polict/Support Subordinate before they come.
Like, the very next turn we can just send Support Subordinate to some of the northern provinces...or Lowlands if we are concerned about war flaring up yet again there. If we start any new trade post, we cannot really do that - even Far North one requires support to not die due to colder climate. Though it, at least, is not visibly endangered by pissed off rival powers with a big pool of violent people to throw at it.
But, like, point is, overextending is going to hurt everything else we do because, well, there is only so much actions to go around.
Yeah, they are kind of...they will be very strong for a bit, then they will collapse either from pissing off Tin Tribes until Heroic Martial Leader appears and conquers them or from monetary crisis or from something else.
Mind, they have the prime spot for controlling trade, so anybody who conquers them is going to get rich too...thus painting target on their back.
Guaranteed -2 from DS and LL, probably -1 from actually losing in a war (although HD might mitigate this one)? So....-2.5 just from the initial hit as a pretty low-end estimate.
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maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
The knights of St John. Survived centuries being in extremely hostile territory. The venetian and genoan holdings in the east fared similarly. And many European trade posts survived isolation and hostile territory when the motherland was involved in a major war.
The thing is however that the circumstances were rather unique.
The knights had absolute terrain and Fortifications advantage as well as a healthy dose of dues vult.
The venetians and genoans were the major intermediaries of trade between the turks and Europe, and they're holdings had similar advantages to the knights.
The Europeans had absolute technological advantages over some natives, and extensive ties with others. As well as being fortified to high hell and packed with gunpowder.
Yes trade posts can survive despite all odds for a long time, but that is due to circumstances detached from it being a trade post.
Mechanically, we need to spend several turns on Fortifications and Storehouse expansion to recreate the similar historical scenarios. (a trade post next to a slightly behind tech hostile territory)
The thing is however that the circumstances were rather unique.
The knights had absolute terrain and Fortifications advantage as well as a healthy dose of dues vult.
The venetians and genoans were the major intermediaries of trade between the turks and Europe, and they're holdings had similar advantages to the knights.
The Europeans had absolute technological advantages over some natives, and extensive ties with others. As well as being fortified to high hell and packed with gunpowder.
Yes trade posts can survive despite all odds for a long time, but that is due to circumstances detached from it being a trade post.
Mechanically, we need to spend several turns on Fortifications and Storehouse expansion to recreate the similar historical scenarios. (a trade post next to a slightly behind tech hostile territory)
- Location
- Austria
All the while we have nomads, Lowland Clusterfuck and cultural drift and Tax Crisis.
If we had no other thing going on, yes, investing into anti-Trelli effort heavily enough to pull it off would be kind of doable and make sense.
We have the foodbasket of not!Mesopotamia almost in our hands if we bother to defend what holdings we have there and then wait for the next opportunity to grow, we have a fuckton of ores to the South-West as long as we are able to keep them from splintering, and we have fookin nomads. We have both more than enough opportunities to do things we are way better suited to do and more than enough dangers which will harm or even kill us if we overextend and do not respect them.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Exactly. They are thinking short-term. "Wow, we've never had this kind of military power before! And the slave wealth is pouring in! Currency is AWESOME! MERCS ARE AWESOME!!"
If we threaten their tin, they are likely to say, "Hah! Taste our mercenary wrath!" and blitz us. Forget outlasting them, they have had a solo focus on wealth and trade for the whole time we've known them and they could potentially have half a dozen mercenary companies available in the short term. They could very well crack the trading post like an egg and drown the Red Banner in bodies, and they'd have the motivation to do it.
We should just wait. A trading post to boost salt income is too good to pass up, but not in a position likely to start a swift and massive retaliation to protect vital strategic assets, nor in a location that would tie up the Red Banner full time and maybe freeze to death anyway. In the east.
- Location
- Illinois
[X] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
Switching, just to see if I can make this fight a bit more fair, and also because I'm still not 100% sure we want to risk fighting the Trelli.
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
Switching, just to see if I can make this fight a bit more fair, and also because I'm still not 100% sure we want to risk fighting the Trelli.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
And are also far smaller in population and militarism than the Xoh, being a single non True City Sate who was more interested in merchentalism.
They are not even close in war power to the Xoh in either of those two examples and whilst the Red Banner may be disadvantaged more than in previous assignments their opponents are not on the same level of said opponents.
This is more about our logistics than their war power.
And you did say it is a hard fight, which mean we have a significant chance of losing.