No such luck. They'd have numbers, and the Red Banner can't resupply.
Best result as far as we're concerned is that the Red Banner succeeds in keeping them from seizing the post outright.
At which point, we still need to keep it supplied.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
No such luck. They'd have numbers, and the Red Banner can't resupply.
Best result as far as we're concerned is that the Red Banner succeeds in keeping them from seizing the post outright.
At which point, we still need to keep it supplied.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
@maximillian You didn't include the e in @veekie.
Pl0x vote for boats if you're voting for the NTP <3
@VoidZero Yes, but WHY? Which of our traits, geographical spread, and technology contribute to this distinction? Which of theirs do the same?
@SpeckofStardust I don't agree that it would be easy to beat up, considering that it would have a Merc Company with it. It would be harder to reinforce than an equivalent Trade Post to the East, but that TP doesn't provide much benefit imo. Like, how does paying them in luxuries so we can suck away more metal or something make them less likely to commit piracy and otherwise militarize?
E: Plus, if we don't make this trade post we will not enter any kind of war because nothing we will be doing would be a threat.
@Candesce Resupply in which sense? Population? That can arguably be drawn from the Tin Tribes. Supply-wise? Food and bronze tools can be drawn from the TP as it devotes its energy into land development and trade with the Tin Tribes. Acquiring more iron would be difficult.
Pl0x vote for boats if you're voting for the NTP <3
@VoidZero Yes, but WHY? Which of our traits, geographical spread, and technology contribute to this distinction? Which of theirs do the same?
@SpeckofStardust I don't agree that it would be easy to beat up, considering that it would have a Merc Company with it. It would be harder to reinforce than an equivalent Trade Post to the East, but that TP doesn't provide much benefit imo. Like, how does paying them in luxuries so we can suck away more metal or something make them less likely to commit piracy and otherwise militarize?
E: Plus, if we don't make this trade post we will not enter any kind of war because nothing we will be doing would be a threat.
@Candesce Resupply in which sense? Population? That can arguably be drawn from the Tin Tribes. Supply-wise? Food and bronze tools can be drawn from the TP as it devotes its energy into land development and trade with the Tin Tribes. Acquiring more iron would be difficult.
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- Location
- Mists of Albion
*implies the Red Banner need reinforcements*
What are you smoking and where can I get some?
Seriously though Red Banner will be stationed there and they can solo decent sized Kingdoms and Empires, this is the start of Trellian militarisation whilst the Red Banner are the peak of Military tactics, equipment and discipline. They could hold the Trade Post with minimal aid, it'd leave them pretty damaged and would take several generations but they could probably hold the line. Even if they did take it eventually the casualties and loss of Bronze would not be worth it.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
They are already committing to piracy and militarizing, they simply haven't gone north yet because its more profitable to go south, if they decide to hit us it's because they see a chance to make it more profitable then simply trading with us, which a unprotected colony which will be the case when we move our troop by sea, which they can easily stop the red banner by simply killing them when their on the via sea transport.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
I know the arguments for the two other posts plus boats, and I made an argument for NTP with no boats. What's the argument for NTP and boats?
What gave you the idea that I was worried?
I just don't like seeing inaccurate numbers being cited.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Agreed. Doing nothing is fairly pointless. The northern post at least confers quite a few new advantages.
IIRC, AN told us it would be roughly three turns to stabilize a northern trade post. With our aid from support/influence subordinate that is pretty much the same number of actions a war would take, if we limited the war to secondary actions.
And yet the court think it will be hard to hold defensively. Jeez, I wonder why? We need to ask AN for more context.
[x] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
[x] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[x] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
Far North trading post is the nearest to beating the West of Trelli post vote. As an added bonus, it likely gets us better trees for better boats - which we'll need, if we're getting in a fight with the Trelli.
Palace is because I want it done ASAP, and I think we're going to be stuck using nothing but our Province actions to build it for the next few turns, if we get in a war this stupid. If we're lucky, anyway - we might end up needing to switch to Offensive or something, which would be even worse.
Bigger boats is because taking on the Trelli with longships is a fucking stupid plan.
[x] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[x] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
Far North trading post is the nearest to beating the West of Trelli post vote. As an added bonus, it likely gets us better trees for better boats - which we'll need, if we're getting in a fight with the Trelli.
Palace is because I want it done ASAP, and I think we're going to be stuck using nothing but our Province actions to build it for the next few turns, if we get in a war this stupid. If we're lucky, anyway - we might end up needing to switch to Offensive or something, which would be even worse.
Bigger boats is because taking on the Trelli with longships is a fucking stupid plan.
- Location
- Austria
Yeah, because raiding farmers is not a thing lol. Banner cannot be everywhere, it is entirely possible to harass farms without getting attacked by them, even if they can win a direct mano-o-mano fight - which is an open question too.
Like, they do not have to fight our warriors to deny us farming soil and they definitely can cut us out from resupply from mainland or from fresh soldiers too.
Do not put words in my mouth: I already said what we should do, or at least what we should not: we should not overextend and we should fortify the shit out of our lands and influence all our subordinates.
If arguing against what I am proposing is so hard you are reduced to putting words I did not say in my mouth and arguing against that, just try reconsidering your position first. Or at least stop fighting against things I did not say, it is annoying.
Give me one historical example of trading post surviving attack by natives on roughly lower tech level while not having naval superiority.
Worst comes to worst, they can just promise anyone who agrees to attack us a share of our Magical Star-Metal Weapons and get, like, all the dudes in the neighbourhood. Diplomacy and using others as meatshields for their ends is their schtick, so....
"Hard, but probably doable while on defensive while we can mulch through Double Heroic Martial Leader nomadic hordes is "not so bad" for you? What? Just...what? In what world Ymaryn being hard-pressed to defend is "not so bad"?
Seriously, nomads attacking our core lands were described as "going to get mulched". We are hilariously good at defending. If us defenging is described as "hard, but probably doable", this is easily one of the hardest wars we've ever had.
Because, you know, logistics matter. Surprising, isn't it?
What? Last time I checked, Red Banner got tattered and went to rest while fighting defensive war in our lands with support of our provinces. Without logistical support of entire Ymaryn giving them fresh dudes and fresh swords they are going to get attritioned both in people and equipment quite fast.
Why are the Tin Tribes supporting us rather than their longstanding trade partners, the Trelli?
Especially when the Trelli are going to be offering larger bribes than we will be.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
What gave you the idea that I was worried?
I just don't like seeing inaccurate numbers being cited.
This, and...
Your worry about not having econ to finish the palace last night.
- Location
- Austria
Especially when they can actually deliver their bribes, while being able to sink our bribes...and use them as their bribes.
And capture our smiths while they are at it.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
The devil was already feeling a chill, l and now the poor sod is installing heaters in his office.
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- Location
- Mists of Albion
I said probably hold the line, which is pretty much an indication of how hard the fight would be considering the Red Banner can solo Kingdoms. The fact the greatest fighting force in the known world could only 'probably' win but with damage over generations shows how tough a fight it would be.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
An unprotected Trade Post, you mean?
Who will they send to hit our long-boats with large squads of mercenaries? Their mercs are elsewhere.
As per the post, NTP offers taller trees which provides us the opportunity to develop longer longboats. Or possibly longer outrigger fishing boats, but I doubt it.
At least based on the original boat arguments, longer boats would give our boats more defensive power due to having larger crews that can fight off boarders and ramming attempts with more ease. They would also increase the supply capacity of the boats making trade along the river and around the seas better.
This isn't an answer to the nomad issue in specific, this is a general approach. Or rather, a general negation, as per your "what we should not."
I don't see where I put words in your mouth. I put silence in it. And apparently that's what you have to offer.
Give me one historical example of a trading post surviving an attack by people who live nearby but are not natives, when that Trade Post is on a river and the attackers are blockading the rivermouth.
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VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
I guess you are referring to the naval war/trade with Treill? Please put in a bit more context and keyword next time.
A: They are in the naval business a lot longer then we are and are far more active. Can't really expected us to compete a well entrenched polity the second we try to break into their business.
B: They stand on naval trade like we stand on our land management practice. So it's reasonable to say their traits gives sea power like our traits give land power.
C: Home field advantage, the closer it is to one side; that side have greater force multiplier and projection capacity. Think how long it takes for ship to sail across the sea and how long for ships to resupply & repair.
D: Who's to say Not!Egypt or other polity on their side wouldn't support them when we fight offensive war? Those polity have reason to keep Triell stable, and wouldn't say no to chance of opening Triell up more.
Which shows that it is inadvisable, not without boats. I trust our court here because they have more context.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Trying to get to get things like pitch developed. That's about the only major advantage for a NTP combination with boats. Admittedly any trade post+boats is a good idea because the TP will be building docks and more boats pretty rapidly so the effect is compounded.
I cited the uses of various varieties of pine in boatbuilding, but that is pretty secondary when we have had Lebanese cedar trees for 2000 years.
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Well, for one we'd be controlling passage through the river, given any time to expand.
For two, we'd have a large mercenary company at their steps looking to provide their youths with profitable work.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Their massive navy ?
- Location
- Mists of Albion
If you'd properly read the argument you would be able to note that I said that they don't have the right boats for raiding, those large dagger warships are nowhere near as effective raiders as you want to imply, they aren't our longships.
We were hard pressed to defend against the Nomad hordes before if you remember, the North was burned at one point. Also it would be a hard fight to hold the Trade Post yes, but it wouldn't be catastrophic like fighting a Nomad Horde, it's two very different fights and objectives and comparing the two is foolish.
That was fighting the Xoh empire in the middle of catastrophic climate change, during one of the first ever major sieges in history and they weren't 'tattered', they could've chosen to go out and fight again and were more than capable of it, we just brought them back in case someone else decided to take a swing and so that they could get ready to fight more Empires solo. Also may I remind you they took out the city without the aid of our main force or provinces as we had brought them back to Redhills, leaving them only with the Lowland Minors who are basically shit.
You are grossly misrepresenting what happened there mate.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
For a trelli war they could very well use naval harassment tactics and ambushes, it would bleed us and prolong the war. And by the time we actually siege the city, it's very much possible that it can last a long time duo to the massive Storehouses of the city and its Fortifications, more so if we get distracted.
We will definitely win the war, but it will be a very bloody and long affair, not quite a phyrric victory, but something along that line.
If we spend a few turns preparing for it though, it will be a much more standard affair.
As for posts and supplies. Depends on the size of the posts, supply by sea is very easy and a small pop post can survive a long siege. Naval superiority ensures it never starves or lacks men but nothing else. However the need to supply or relieve them would point an obvious target for enemy interception. And the sea unlike the land is bloody unpredictable, many a mighty fleet was crushed by sudden weather swings.
We will definitely win the war, but it will be a very bloody and long affair, not quite a phyrric victory, but something along that line.
If we spend a few turns preparing for it though, it will be a much more standard affair.
As for posts and supplies. Depends on the size of the posts, supply by sea is very easy and a small pop post can survive a long siege. Naval superiority ensures it never starves or lacks men but nothing else. However the need to supply or relieve them would point an obvious target for enemy interception. And the sea unlike the land is bloody unpredictable, many a mighty fleet was crushed by sudden weather swings.
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Keep in mind that our battle with the SF was getting support from the Lowlanders and the main force which each rolled higher than the Red Banner.
This time around, the RB won't have much support of the mainland, and maybe only some support from the tin tribes.